Preexistence

[JustAskin]

Perhaps I am your refiner.

Perhaps I am the fire that will consume you and soften your granite heart and then reshape you in the mould of Truth and Righteousness through God's Holy Word brought to mankind by the auspices of the man, now spirit, Jesus Christ, begotten son of God, son of Man, King of kings, Lord of lords.

Perhaps because you set yourself as God of this forum and I want to show you how little you are. How does that saying go 'He that wants to be first…'

You boast that I was nothing to you because you have been here for YEARS (can you see how laughable that is) and still you have learnt nothing, not even how to put a plausible defence of an implausible creed.

But how can you move forward? There can be no learning because to learn would be to dismiss trinity doctrine, remove the cork from the bottle and then you can taste the pure clear waters of Spiritual Truth.
You cannit quench your thirst, for thirsty you are, you seek the waters of life, but only lick at the soiled droplets on the outside of the bottle.

Until, you uncork the bottle, you cannot taste the Truth.

Jesus is coming soon, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her uniquities', sayeth the Lord.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,19:45)

Perhaps I am your refiner. Perhaps I am the fire that will consume you and soften your granite  heart and then reshape you in the mould of Truth and Righteousness through God's Holy Word brought to mankind by the auspices of the man, now spirit, Jesus Christ, begotten son of God, son of Man, King of kings, Lord of lords. Perhaps because you set yourself as God of this forum and I want to show you how little you are. How does that saying go 'He that wants to be first…' You boast that I was nothing to you because you have been here for YEARS (can you see how laughable that is) and still you have learnt nothing, not even how to put a plausible defence of an implausible creed. But how can you move forward? There can be no learning because to learn would be to dismiss trinity doctrine, remove the cork from the bottle and then you can taste the pure clear waters of Spiritual Truth. You cannit quench your thirst, for thirsty you are, you seek the waters of life, but only lick at the soiled droplets on the outside of the bottle. Until, you uncork the bottle, you cannot taste the Truth. Jesus is coming soon, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her uniquities', sayeth the Lord.

Ja

Interesting, Fire is a type of the Holy Spirit. Are you making yourself equal with God? What can I say?

Hey all. JA believes he is sent here like the Holy Spirit to soften our hearts!

You shall know them by their fruits.

Since you claim that you are sent here to “show me how little I am”, why did you deny my offer to a debate in the debates thread? HMMM?

That’s funny! Tell you what holy one, lets put your words to action mr big shot, the self appointed prophet, that bully in the school yard that is a coward when you stand up to him.

Let’s take it to the debates thread and have serious dialogue without all this childish diatribe from you and all the hecklers here that nip at your heals with accusations and no substance.

Just a serious one on one discussion about the truth that you claim to have.

What ya say, eh? Are you up to showing me how little I am?

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:35)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,18:14) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods?  Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God.  What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point.  It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word.  He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures.  I will not run from correction.  If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source.  It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own. I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him. and, once made perfect, “he became THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2 Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus? How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not your source? The scriptures tell us that by Jesus all things consist, or are held together. (Col 1:17} The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author and finisher” of our faith. (Heb 12:2) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author” of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9) The scriptures tell us Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6 – 1 Cor 8:6) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Light of men”. (John 1:4) The scriptures tell us he is the “Eternal Life” and the “Word of Life”. (1 John 1:1-3 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that he “upholds all things by the word of his power”. (Heb 1:3) The scriptures tell us “if you have Jesus you have God”. (1 John 2:23 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that “Jesus has all things”. (Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27) All of the above shows that Jesus is the “Source” to us! However this does not deny that the Father is not also the source for they are “ONE”. For example, when you say that Jesus is not the source of life but the Father is, then you are denying Jesus very own words when he says “HE” is the “Life”. Jesus says “I am the Life”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is, you are just his FUNNEL.” Jesus says “I am the Truth”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is the Truth, and you are just a FUNNEL.” Jesus says “All things are mine”, Marty says “No they are not because the Father gave them to you.” Jesus says “All Authority and Power is given to me”, Marty says “no you do not have all authority and power because it is the Fathers and not yours.” Now here is the bombshell that destroys your “By and Through” Jesus theory that because scriptures speak of the Father doing things through Jesus then of course that means Jesus cannot be God also. For from him and **THROUGH HIM** and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. . Rom 11:36 Who is the above scripture speaking of? As you can see often Paul is speaking of God but it is not always clear if he is talking about the Father or Jesus. Now compare the language with this verse… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “**THROUGH WHOM** ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE“. 1 Cor 8:6 Now if all things are coming through him then it is a true statement that all things are coming from him! Since all things can also come through the Father as Rom 11:36 shows then the argument that all things coming through Jesus is proof he is not God is a “Straw”, unless of course you want to say that Rom 11:36 is Jesus, in either case it supports the Trinitarian view that Jesus is God! So in summary, if Jesus is not your source then you are none of his. For whoever has the Son has life! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Tell me Marty how is it that if Jesus has all things, then he is not your source. Eph 1:21 – Eph 4:10 – Phil 2:9,10 – Matt 28:18 – 1 Cor 15:27 – Heb 2:8 – 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is not the source then why did the Apostles and Paul determine to preach only Jesus and him crucified? (1 Cor 2:2 – 2 Cor 4:5) Why did Paul say that he counted all things but “Dung” to know Jesus? (Phil 3:8) What other name did you call on to be saved? So the truth of Gods word destroys the age ole fallacy that Jesus is not the source of all things when in fact it has pleased the Father that in him, Jesus should all fullness dwell! Some day Jesus will say too many, “Depart from me for “I NEVER KNEW YOU”! WJ Hi WJ: Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all that obey him because he obeyed our Father and our God even unto death on the cross. He was sent by God, and it was God speaking to humanity through him, and it was God's Word that he obeyed and therefore, he is not the source. The same Word of God that applies to me, applies to you as well.  But I would never hope that he would say that he never knew you or anyone else, and so, I will continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. I know Jesus as my Lord, and I love him and am submitted to my God through him. He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source.  He said this: Quote John 17 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Your proof text denys your very own words… 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, “that he (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him“. Whos is giving the Eternal life here Marty? Who is the Life Marty? If it is Jesus then he is the source is he not? 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent John 17:1-3 Notice Marty that it is knowing both the Father and the Son that is the prerequisite to eternal life! But Marty says… Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source. And that is not what Jesus said at all is it? Where did he say he was not God? Scripture please! Where did he say that he was not the source? Scripture please. I have shown you many scriptures that says Jesus is all those things to us and in fact possesses all things. But you because of your own pride deny who he is and claim to follow a servant Messiah. Jesus is no longer servant anymore Marty, he owns it all and posseses it all. Therefore for every true believer Jesus is the source of Eternal life and everything that we need! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Marty in your opinion is Jesus the source of your life in him who is the life or not? If not then I question your proposed devotion to Jesus who is the source of our life and eternal salvation! WJ

Hi WJ:

Without the Father there would be no Son, the scripture states:

Quote

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The point is that he is not God.  He obeyed our God without sin even unto death on the cross and without him there would be no salvation.  He is my Lord and I love him and serve him.  When I obey him I am obeying God.  God has exalted him to head of the church.  Nevertheless, it is God's Word that he watches over to perform.   It is not his own will that he is carrying out but it is the Father's will.

Quote

John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:35) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,18:14) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods?  Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God.  What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point.  It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word.  He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures.  I will not run from correction.  If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source.  It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to m ake this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own. I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him. and, once made perfect, “he became THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2 Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus? How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not your source? The scriptures tell us that by Jesus all things consist, or are held together. (Col 1:17} The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author and finisher” of our faith. (Heb 12:2) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author” of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9) The scriptures tell us Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6 – 1 Cor 8:6) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Light of men”. (John 1:4) The scriptures tell us he is the “Eternal Life” and the “Word of Life”. (1 John 1:1-3 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that he “upholds all things by the word of his power”. (Heb 1:3) The scriptures tell us “if you have Jesus you have God”. (1 John 2:23 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that “Jesus has all things”. (Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27) All of the above shows that Jesus is the “Source” to us! However this does not deny that the Father is not also the source for they are “ONE”. For example, when you say that Jesus is not the source of life but the Father is, then you are denying Jesus very own words when he says “HE” is the “Life”. Jesus says “I am the Life”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is, you are just his FUNNEL.” Jesus says “I am the Truth”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is the Truth, and you are just a FUNNEL.” Jesus says “All things are mine”, Marty says “No they are not because the Father gave them to you.” Jesus says “All Authority and Power is given to me”, Marty says “no you do not have all authority and power because it is the Fathers and not yours.” Now here is the bombshell that destroys your “By and Through” Jesus theory that because scriptures speak of the Father doing things through Jesus then of course that means Jesus cannot be God also. For from him and **THROUGH HIM** and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. . Rom 11:36 Who is the above scripture speaking of? As you can see often Paul is speaking of God but it is not always clear if he is talking about the Father or Jesus. Now compare the language with this verse… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “**THROUGH WHOM** ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE“. 1 Cor 8:6 Now if all things are coming through him then it is a true statement that all things are coming from him! Since all things can also come through the Father as Rom 11:36 shows then the argument that all things coming through Jesus is proof he is not God is a “Straw”, unless of course you want to say that Rom 11:36 is Jesus, in either case it supports the Trinitarian view that Jesus is God! So in summary, if Jesus is not your source then you are none of his. For whoever has the Son has life! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Tell me Marty how is it that if Jesus has all things, then he is not your source. Eph 1:21 – Eph 4:10 – Phil 2:9,10 – Matt 28:18 – 1 Cor 15:27 – Heb 2:8 – 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is not the source then why did the Apostles and Paul determine to preach only Jesus and him crucified? (1 Cor 2:2 – 2 Cor 4:5) Why did Paul say that he counted all things but “Dung” to know Jesus? (Phil 3:8) What other name did you call on to be saved? So the truth of Gods word destroys the age ole fallacy that Jesus is not the source of all things when in fact it has pleased the Father that in him, Jesus should all fullness dwell! Some day Jesus will say too many, “Depart from me for “I NEVER KNEW YOU”! WJ Hi WJ: Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all that obey him because he obeyed our Father and our God even unto death on the cross. He was sent by God, and it was God speaking to humanity through him, and it was God's Word that he obeyed and therefore, he is not the source. The same Word of God that applies to me, applies to you as well.  But I would never hope that he would say that he never knew you or anyone else, and so, I will continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. I know Jesus as my Lord, and I love him and am submitted to my God through him. He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source.  He said this: Quote John 17 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Your proof text denys your very own words… 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, “that he (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him“. Whos is giving the Eternal life here Marty? Who is the Life Marty? If it is Jesus then he is the source is he not? 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent John 17:1-3 Notice Marty that it is knowing both the Father and the Son that is the prerequisite to eternal life! But Marty says… Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source. And that is not what Jesus said at all is it? Where did he say he was not God? Scripture please! Where did he say that he was not the source? Scripture please. I have shown you many scriptures that says Jesus is all those things to us and in fact possesses all things. But you because of your own pride deny who he is and claim to follow a servant Messiah. Jesus is no longer servant anymore Marty, he owns it all and posseses it all. Therefore for every true believer Jesus is the source of Eternal life and everything that we need! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Marty in your opinion is Jesus the source of your life in him who is the life or not? If not then I question your proposed devotion to Jesus who is the source of our life and eternal salvation! WJ Hi WJ: Without the Father there would be no Son, the scripture states: Quote 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. The point is that he is not God.  He obeyed our God without sin even unto death on the cross and without him there would be no salvation.  He is my Lord and I love him and serve him.  When I obey him I am obeying God.  God has exalted him to head of the church.  Nevertheless, it is God's Word that he watches over to perform.   It is not his own will that he is carrying out but it is the Father's will. Quote John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

So I take it Jesus is not your source!

Thankyou!

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:10)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:35) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,18:14) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods?  Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God.  What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point.  It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word.  He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures.  I will not run from correction.  If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “h e who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source.  It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own. I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him. and, once made perfect, “he became THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2 Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus? How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not your source? The scriptures tell us that by Jesus all things consist, or are held together. (Col 1:17} The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author and finisher” of our faith. (Heb 12:2) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author” of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9) The scriptures tell us Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6 – 1 Cor 8:6) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Light of men”. (John 1:4) The scriptures tell us he is the “Eternal Life” and the “Word of Life”. (1 John 1:1-3 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that he “upholds all things by the word of his power”. (Heb 1:3) The scriptures tell us “if you have Jesus you have God”. (1 John 2:23 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that “Jesus has all things”. (Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27) All of the above shows that Jesus is the “Source” to us! However this does not deny that the Father is not also the source for they are “ONE”. For example, when you say that Jesus is not the source of life but the Father is, then you are denying Jesus very own words when he says “HE” is the “Life”. Jesus says “I am the Life”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is, you are just his FUNNEL.” Jesus says “I am the Truth”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is the Truth, and you are just a FUNNEL.” Jesus says “All things are mine”, Marty says “No they are not because the Father gave them to you.” Jesus says “All Authority and Power is given to me”, Marty says “no you do not have all authority and power because it is the Fathers and not yours.” Now here is the bombshell that destroys your “By and Through” Jesus theory that because scriptures speak of the Father doing things through Jesus then of course that means Jesus cannot be God also. For from him and **THROUGH HIM** and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. . Rom 11:36 Who is the above scripture speaking of? As you can see often Paul is speaking of God but it is not always clear if he is talking about the Father or Jesus. Now compare the language with this verse… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “**THROUGH WHOM** ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE“. 1 Cor 8:6 Now if all things are coming through him then it is a true statement that all things are coming from him! Since all things can also come through the Father as Rom 11:36 shows then the argument that all things coming through Jesus is proof he is not God is a “Straw”, unless of course you want to say that Rom 11:36 is Jesus, in either case it supports the Trinitarian view that Jesus is God! So in summary, if Jesus is not your source then you are none of his. For whoever has the Son has life! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Tell me Marty how is it that if Jesus has all things, then he is not your source. Eph 1:21 – Eph 4:10 – Phil 2:9,10 – Matt 28:18 – 1 Cor 15:27 – Heb 2:8 – 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is not the source then why did the Apostles and Paul determine to preach only Jesus and him crucified? (1 Cor 2:2 – 2 Cor 4:5) Why did Paul say that he counted all things but “Dung” to know Jesus? (Phil 3:8) What other name did you call on to be saved? So the truth of Gods word destroys the age ole fallacy that Jesus is not the source of all things when in fact it has pleased the Father that in him, Jesus should all fullness dwell! Some day Jesus will say too many, “Depart from me for “I NEVER KNEW YOU”! WJ Hi WJ: Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all that obey him because he obeyed our Father and our God even unto death on the cross. He was sent by God, and it was God speaking to humanity through him, and it was God's Word that he obeyed and therefore, he is not the source. The same Word of God that applies to me, applies to you as well.  But I would never hope that he would say that he never knew you or anyone else, and so, I will continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. I know Jesus as my Lord, and I love him and am submitted to my God through him. He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source.  He said this: Quote John 17 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Your proof text denys your very own words… 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, “that he (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him“. Whos is giving the Eternal life here Marty? Who is the Life Marty? If it is Jesus then he is the source is he not? 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent John 17:1-3 Notice Marty that it is knowing both the Father and the Son that is the prerequisite to eternal life! But Marty says… Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46) He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source. And that is not what Jesus said at all is it? Where did he say he was not God? Scripture please! Where did he say that he was not the source? Scripture please. I have shown you many scriptures that says Jesus is all those things to us and in fact possesses all things. But you because of your own pride deny who he is and claim to follo w a servant Messiah. Jesus is no longer servant anymore Marty, he owns it all and posseses it all. Therefore for every true believer Jesus is the source of Eternal life and everything that we need! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Marty in your opinion is Jesus the source of your life in him who is the life or not? If not then I question your proposed devotion to Jesus who is the source of our life and eternal salvation! WJ Hi WJ: Without the Father there would be no Son, the scripture states: Quote 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. The point is that he is not God.  He obeyed our God without sin even unto death on the cross and without him there would be no salvation.  He is my Lord and I love him and serve him.  When I obey him I am obeying God.  God has exalted him to head of the church.  Nevertheless, it is God's Word that he watches over to perform.   It is not his own will that he is carrying out but it is the Father's will. Quote John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Love in Christ, Marty Marty So I take it Jesus is not your source! Thankyou! WJ

Hi WJ:

Can you read what I said?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11)

Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty

Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation.

He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head.

I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct?

Thanks for listening! WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:18)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11) Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation. He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head. I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct? Thanks for listening! WJ

Hi WJ:

He is the head of the church. God has exalted him to this position, and he is Lord over all of humanity, but no, he is not God. God has made it clear in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and His Christ.

And in 1 Timothy 2:5 the scripture states:

Quote

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And you quoted a portion of the following scripture out of context, and so I will post it in context:

Quote

1ohn 5:9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:18)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11) Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation. He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head. I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct? Thanks for listening! WJ

WJ

you said;He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head.

the way you make it sound it does not ring a bell;
first Jesus will remain the Messiah ,the lamb for ever.

all the other titles he receives are added to his name are extras and by no mean delude the previous titles.

and Christ is not the source but the means by wich God do his will,so you wrong on that one.

he is the head of his church ,that is the church without the trinity.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:18)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11) Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation. He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head. I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct? Thanks for listening! WJ

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33)

[Hi WJ: He is the head of the church.  God has exalted him to this position, and he is Lord over all of humanity, but no, he is not God.

Marty

The contention was not is Jesus God, but is he the source of salvation and eternal life?

You cannot give a straight answer on anything can you?

Is Jesus your source or not? Yes or No or I plead the 5th, I don't care. My point to you is your statement that Jesus is not the source is a lie and not the truth!

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33)

God has made it clear in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and His Christ.

Yes and through Mattew Jesus makes it clear that he has all Authority and Power and they worshipped him by grabbing him at his feet!

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33)

And in 1 Timothy 2:5 the scripture states: Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yes Jesus is man after the flesh but God after the Spirit. Paul also says…

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Tit 2:13

Which also confirms Isaiahs prophesy that he is the “Mighty God”, (Isa 9:6).

You can shut you eyes to these truths if you want that is your buisness, but again the contention was “Is Jesus the source?” you said no.

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33)

And you quoted a portion of the following scripture out of context, and so I will post it in context: Quote 1ohn 5:9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

So, if I quote the whole epistle does it change the fact that having Jesus is having life?

Like always you fail to see the subject is Jesus, the Father himself bears record that this eternal life is in Jesus, why? Because John says in chapter 1 of this epistle that Jesus is “The Eternal Life” that was with the Father…

The one who existed from the beginning is the one we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is Jesus Christ, “the Word of life“. 1 John 1:1

Jesus is the “Word of Life”, (1 John 1:1-3) Jesus says he is the way the truth and the life, (John 14:6), Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life, (John 11:25), John also says 'In him was life; and the life was the light of men”. John 1:4.

Therefore he is the source of life to all men that have eternal life!

Then John goes on to say…

The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 1 John 1:2

Then John finishes the epistle with this…

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. “AND WE ARE IN HIM WHO IS TRUE–EVEN IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE”. 1 John 5:20

So once again Marty, is Jesus your source or not?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The Lord is the Spirit.

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:18) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11) Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation. He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head. I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct? Thanks for listening! WJ Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) [Hi WJ: He is the head of the church.  God has exalted him to this position, and he is Lord over all of humanity, but no, he is not God. Marty The contention was not is Jesus God, but is he the source of salvation and eternal life? You cannot give a straight answer on anything can you? Is Jesus your source or not? Yes or No or I plead the 5th, I don't care. My point to you is your statement that Jesus is not the source is a lie and not the truth! Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) God has made it clear in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and His Christ. Yes and through Mattew Jesus makes it clear that he has all Authority and Power and they worshipped him by grabbing him at his feet! Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) And in 1 Timothy 2:5 the scripture states: Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Yes Jesus is man after the flesh but God after the Spirit. Paul also says… while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Tit 2:13 Which also confirms Isaiahs prophesy that he is the “Mighty God”, (Isa 9:6). You can shut you eyes to these truths if you want that is your buisness, but again the contention was “Is Jesus the source?” you said no. Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) And you quoted a portion of the following scripture out of context, and so I will post it in context: Quote 1ohn 5:9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. So, if I quote the whole epistle does it change the fact that having Jesus is having life? Like always you fail to see the subject is Jesus, the Father himself bears record that this eternal life is in Jesus, why? Because John says in chapter 1 of this epistle that Jesus is “The Eternal Life” that was with the Father… The one who existed from the beginning is the one we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is Jesus Christ, “the Word of life“. 1 John 1:1 Jesus is the “Word of Life”, (1 John 1:1-3) Jesus says he is the way the truth and the life, (John 14:6), Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life, (John 11:25), John also says 'In him was life; and the life was the light of men”. John 1:4. Therefore he is the source of life to all men that have eternal life! Then John goes on to say… The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 1 John 1:2 Then John finishes the epistle with this… We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. “AND WE ARE IN HIM WHO IS TRUE–EVEN IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE”. 1 John 5:20 So once again Marty, is Jesus your source or not? WJ

Hi WJ:

No, Jesus is not the source.  Without God there would be no Jesus.  The scripture tells us that God gave his Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in him…, and the scripture tells us that it was God speaking to humanity through him.

That was not the initial question, but there you have it.  Jesus is not the source.  He came to us from God and went back to God who sent him.  When we obey him, we are obeying God.

And he is not God either.  There is only “One God”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 08 2010,22:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:18) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:11) Hi WJ: Can you read what I said? Love in Christ, Marty Yea and you didn't answer the question but only post scriptures that speak of Jesus pre-Glorification and Exaltation. He is not the servant Messiah any longer. He has all things and he is the source of all things to the Church of which he is the head. I took your non answer as a no, you do not think Jesus is your source, isn't that correct? Thanks for listening! WJ Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) [Hi WJ: He is the head of the church.  God has exalted him to this position, and he is Lord over all of humanity, but no, he is not God. Marty The contention was not is Jesus God, but is he the source of salvation and eternal life? You cannot give a straight answer on anything can you? Is Jesus your source or not? Yes or No or I plead the 5th, I don't care. My point to you is your statement that Jesus is not the source is a lie and not the truth! Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) God has made it clear in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and His Christ. Yes and through Mattew Jesus makes it clear that he has all Authority and Power and they worshipped him by grabbing him at his feet! Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) And in 1 Timothy 2:5 the scripture states: Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Yes Jesus is man after the flesh but God after the Spirit. Paul also says… while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Tit 2:13 Which also confirms Isaiahs prophesy that he is the “Mighty God”, (Isa 9:6). You can shut you eyes to these truths if you want that is your buisness, but again the contention was “Is Jesus the source?” you said no. Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,22:33) And you quoted a portion of the following scripture out of context, and so I will post it in context: Quote 1ohn 5:9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. So, if I quote the whole epistle does it change the fact that having Jesus is having life? Like always you fail to see the subject is Jesus, the Father himself bears record that this eternal life is in Jesus, why? Because John says in chapter 1 of this epistle that Jesus is “The Eternal Life” that was with the Father… The one who existed from the beginning is the one we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is Jesus Christ, “the Word of life“. 1 John 1:1 Jesus is the “Word of Life”, (1 John 1:1-3) Jesus says he is the way the truth and the life, (John 14:6), Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life, (John 11:25), John also says 'In him was life; and the life was the light of men”. John 1:4. Therefore he is the source of life to all men that have eternal life! Then John goes on to say… The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 1 John 1:2 Then John finishes the epistle with this… We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. “AND WE ARE IN HIM WHO IS TRUE–EVEN IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE”. 1 John 5:20 So once again Marty, is Jesus your source or not? WJ Hi WJ: No, Jesus is not the source.  Without God there would be no Jesus.  The scripture tells us that God gave his Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in him…, and the scripture tells us that it was God speaking to humanity through him. That was not the initial question, but there you have it.  Jesus is not the source.  He came to us from God and went back to God who sent him.  When we obey him, we are obeying God. And he is not God either.  There is only “One God”. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Thanks! I am glad to know that he is not the source of eternal salvation and the “author and finisher of your faith”.

And that he is not the “Life” in you!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You would try to divide between God and His Spirit in Christ to demean a brother?

[terraricca]

WJ

Marty

Thanks! I am glad to know that he is not the source of eternal salvation and the “author and finisher of your faith”.

And that he is not the “Life” in you!

WJ

Now that you have the info what you gone do with it ,

you question people like bully ,

and you know that the questions you ask with the answers you have added to it will be used by you in the wrong way,

you once told me you have Gods spirit think again if you have it ,because i don't see it ,

you have a spirit of contest in words ,but have no substance in scriptures spirit.

you for sure do not have Gods spirit .some irrelevant scriptures knowledge yes,in the understanding of the spirit of God you have shown NONE.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,14:34)

Marty Thanks! I am glad to know that he is not the source of eternal salvation and the “author and finisher of your faith”. And that he is not the “Life” in you! WJ

I think you are taking this beyond what is intended.

The source (God) through Jesus (his image) has given us salvation.

So Jesus is the one through whom we get to the Father. Therefore he is the author and perfecter of our faith because it is he who who brings us to God. Obviously this is God's will and acknowledging that it is God's will shows that Jesus is doing God's will. Is this not the role of a mediator?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:10)

Marty So I take it Jesus is not your source! Thankyou! WJ

Actually WJ, he is the head of man. And the head of Christ is God.

So God is overall and through all. Christ is appointed as Lord by God to rule.

God > Christ > Man.

So ultimately God is the source of all and Christ is the head. As the head, God has made salvation in no other name.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,03:22)

t8 First of all it is the Psalmist that is speaking and not YHWH! Secondly, the Psalmist is confessing his error when he says they shall die like fallen men! But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Pss 82:7 Third, YHWH says there were no gods formed, yet you continue to hold onto the fact that there are other gods in scriptures and even worse assume that is what our Lord believed by quoting the Psalmist words. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME“. Isa 43:10 Paul agrees with this statement… So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and “THAT THERE IS NO GOD BU ONE” For even if there “are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),. 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Now as soon as you or anyone else can effectively explain why Jesus is called “The God” with the definite article then you may have a case, otherwise your statement is just smoke in the wind and a pure confession of Polytheism. Quote (t8 @ April 06 2010,03:24) 2) Jesus didn't say yes, I am God, instead he said “I am God's son” Once you have a revelation of what it means for one to claim that he is the “Only Son of God” and that God was his personal Father, then you will see why they wanted to stone Jesus for claiming he was the Son of God. If it was no big deal to say he was a Son of God then why did they become infuriated by his confession? Why did Peter need a special revelation? Why did the demons cry out who he was and Jesus tell them to not speak of it? The Apostle John knew exactly what Jesus words meant… For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, “but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God“. Little wonder he wrote John 1:1, 18 – John 20:28 – 1 John 5:20. The burden of proof is on you and the unbelievers that Jesus is not God to the Apostles and the Forefathers! WJ

It doesn't change anything.

We are all sons of the Most High?

Jesus said that he was the son of God when the Jews accused him of implying he was God.

I agree with Jesus that he is the son of God (as he said). I do not agree with the Jews and you who said/say that he was saying he is God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,03:22)

Now as soon as you or anyone else can effectively explain why Jesus is called “The God” with the definite article then you may have a case, otherwise your statement is just smoke in the wind and a pure confession of Polytheism.

Satan is called the God of this Age.
So is he God too?

And he is not the false God of this age either. He actually is the God of this Age.

The way to explain it is that he is not the one true God. The one true God is the Father and he sent the son.

Also, angels are referred to as elohim. Does that make them the one true God?

Again, no.

For us there is one God the Father. Not sure why you need to oppose that.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,00:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,14:10) Marty So I take it Jesus is not your source! Thankyou! WJ Actually WJ, he is the head of man. And the head of Christ is God. So God is overall and through all. Christ is appointed as Lord by God to rule. God > Christ > Man. So ultimately God is the source of all and Christ is the head. As the head, God has made salvation in no other name.

T8………Well put, that is (exactly) right brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2010,22:46)

Hi WJ, You would try to divide between God and His Spirit in Christ to demean a brother?

NH

No I wouldn't, because you can't “divide” the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit for they ONE.

The whole point is, if we have Jesus we have God and we have life.

Without Jesus who is the source of Eternal life and the author and finisher of our faith, then we do not have the Father.

Jesus is not some sort of empty funnel. He is one in essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit and you cannot have one without the other.

The scriptures over and over declare that Jesus is the life, not that he is just a vessel of life. Therefore he is the ultimate source of life to all because he possesses all things!

He that hath the Son has Life! Why because Jesus is the Life!

Mens carnal mind always find ways to make Jesus less than who or what he is just because they cannot confess him as their God even though the scritpures say he is God and the Apostles confessed him as their God!

WJ

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