Preexistence

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2010,14:31)

Quote (t8 @ April 05 2010,01:40) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) There is one true God, but two gods that have the nature of a god and those two gods make up one Godhead together with the Holy Spirit (inner person) of the one true God.  One is greater than the other but the other is greater than everything else.  So, see how we have two that are greater than everything and only two with the original nature as deity?  Neither one of them could be equal to anything that might be “called” deity who don't actually have a deity nature as their original nature. There is one who is identified as God (the true God) that is the Father. There are many who are called theos, for qualitative reasons. Trinitarians cannot grasp this. It is as if they are blinded to this or perhaps they are just stubborn and ignore it. Either way, they reject what scripture says, that there is one true God the Father and that there are others under God who are called theos and elohim for one reason or another. Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41) I realize that believers will be partakers of the divine nature but the Son of God always had it and that is a huge difference Correct. He has first place in all things and we are being conformed into his image. We may not know exactly what we will be like, but we will be like him. So yes, he was first. He is also called the prototype son in scripture. Thanks t8, Can you also see how the Father and the Son are together the God of Israel…the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm are portrayed as the one God of Israel? Quote Deut 4:34-39 34 “Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. 36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire. 37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power, 38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today. 39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. NASU Quote Isa 52:10-53:5 10 The Lord has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, That all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God. Is 53:1-5  1Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. NASU Quote John 12:34-43 34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.” These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. NASU

Actually t8,
I previously bumped the wrong post…it's this one

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 06 2010,19:07)

WJ, But what if he WAS God (He wasn't). They would have stoned God Himself. Stoned their One God, and Satan would acquire the High Seat. WJ, they would have Stoned God Almighty… In fact, they did worse than that: they killed God Almighty in the most horrible way – hanging from a tree, according to their tradition! Do you know, realise, what your doctrine tells you: God Almighty was killed by his own prodegy (mankind beware o' them Robots you creating!) So, then, WJ, when God was dead why didn't Satan seize the throne, who was to stop him?

JA

I think we have already been over this but apparantly you have stopped your ears to the truth of the scriptures.

Death does not mean to cease to exist.

God is Spirit, Jesus himself said fear him who could kill both the soul and body.

The Body without the Spirit is dead.

Your basic Christology is that of the cults that believe when one dies he ceases to exist and then he is reincarnated or some crap like that.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 06 2010,19:13)

WJ, So when 'we' become Sons of God that means 'we' will also be God Almighty, too. Weh-hey…! Oh, but when 'we' are all God Almighty, who will 'we' be God Almighty of? Who will there be to worship 'us'?

JA

Again your ignorance and purposeful closing your ears and eyes to the truth is evident.

Jesus is the “Only Son of God”. All other sons of God are by adoption!

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,17:29)

Quote (JustAskin @ April 06 2010,19:13) WJ, So when 'we' become Sons of God that means 'we' will also be God Almighty, too. Weh-hey…! Oh, but when 'we' are all God Almighty, who will 'we' be God Almighty of? Who will there be to worship 'us'? JA Again you ignorance and purposeful closing your ears and eyes to the truth is evident. Jesus is the “Only Son of God”. All other sons of God are by adoption! WJ

Hi WJ,

Were these “Sons of God” adopted as well?

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?  or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?  or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods? Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God. What will it take to convince you? If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you? If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point. It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word. He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures. I will not run from correction. If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image. Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source. It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own.

I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him.

and, once made perfect, “he became THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9

“Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus?

How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not yo
ur source?

[JustAskin]

WJ,

You know why I like you? You are the perfect teacher!

'Thanks, but how so?', you ask. And well you might…

The answer is this: Because you are so wrong it makes all else right.

I don't mean that quoting scripture verses is wrong, far from it. It is the out of context and misleading way you present your argument.

It is clear that you are wring And That Teaches Me to Seek the Truth.

So, thank you Lord YHVH for the adversary you gave me here in this forum, for by him and through him, I am increasing in knowledge of your word, your revelation brought to mankind for it's offer of salvation by the man, Jesus Christ, your Only Begotten Son, our reigning King in Glory, Amen.

[JustAskin]

WJ (and others),
Why the unnecessary extended quoting of previous posts?

Just asking.

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,18:59)

WJ (and others), Why the unnecessary extended quoting of previous posts? Just asking.

Hi JustAskin,

It specifies to whom and what the current Post pertains to, that's why.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

WJ,
You say that Jesus is the 'Only Son of God'.

Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

Jesus is the 'Only Begotten Son of God', is what I think you meant to write, yes?

It has been pointed out – from scriptures – that there are many Sons of God, but you seem to ignore those.

Are you saying what you are saying because the Words Jesus say are written in Semi Capitals making them somehow more high. Did not you yourself tell me that 'there are no capitals in greek', pun intended!

So, one son of god is the same as many sons of god, so how is jesus, son of god different to adam, son of god (genealogy of Christ)?

[GeneBalthrop]

JA………Actually the original Greeks used only capital lettering, until around 700 AD. The transposing between upper and lower case lettering can be a means of distorting, scriptures used by TRINITARIANS AND PROTESTANTS, as well as others. The word GOD is upper case in all original texts.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ April 07 2010,02:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,17:29) Quote (JustAskin @ April 06 2010,19:13) WJ, So when 'we' become Sons of God that means 'we' will also be God Almighty, too. Weh-hey…! Oh, but when 'we' are all God Almighty, who will 'we' be God Almighty of? Who will there be to worship 'us'? JA Again you ignorance and purposeful closing your ears and eyes to the truth is evident. Jesus is the “Only Son of God”. All other sons of God are by adoption! WJ Hi WJ, Were these “Sons of God” adopted as well? Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?  or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?  or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed

What does it matter? Jesus according to the scriptures is the only “begotten” Son of God.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,02:57)

WJ, You know why I like you? You are the perfect teacher! 'Thanks, but how so?', you ask. And well you might… The answer is this: Because you are so wrong it makes all else right. I don't mean that quoting scripture verses is wrong, far from it. It is the out of context and misleading way you present your argument. It is clear that you are wring And That Teaches Me to Seek the Truth. So, thank you Lord YHVH for the adversary you gave me here in this forum, for by him and through him, I am increasing in knowledge of your word, your revelation brought to mankind for it's offer of salvation by the man, Jesus Christ, your Only Begotten Son, our reigning King in Glory, Amen.

As usaual, nothing of any value to add!

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,03:09)

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,02:57) WJ, You know why I like you? You are the perfect teacher! 'Thanks, but how so?', you ask. And well you might… The answer is this: Because you are so wrong it makes all else right. I don't mean that quoting scripture verses is wrong, far from it. It is the out of context and misleading way you present your argument. It is clear that you are wring And That Teaches Me to Seek the Truth. So, thank you Lord YHVH for the adversary you gave me here in this forum, for by him and through him, I am increasing in knowledge of your word, your revelation brought to mankind for it's offer of salvation by the man, Jesus Christ, your Only Begotten Son, our reigning King in Glory, Amen. As usaual, nothing of any value to add! WJ

wj

1Co 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2010,13:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,03:09) Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,02:57) WJ, You know why I like you? You are the perfect teacher! 'Thanks, but how so?', you ask. And well you might… The answer is this: Because you are so wrong it makes all else right. I don't mean that quoting scripture verses is wrong, far from it. It is the out of context and misleading way you present your argument. It is clear that you are wring And That Teaches Me to Seek the Truth. So, thank you Lord YHVH for the adversary you gave me here in this forum, for by him and through him, I am increasing in knowledge of your word, your revelation brought to mankind for it's offer of salvation by the man, Jesus Christ, your Only Begotten Son, our reigning King in Glory, Amen. As usaual, nothing of any value to add! WJ wj 1Co 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Pity!

[JustAskin]

WJ,

I can feel the pride that you are feeling.

Isn't it so good to know that you are fulfilling your deepest dearest desire – is that not why you are a Pastor – to teach others about your great God – why do you scorn (tho seekretly joyful) my gift to you. I said I like you – if it weren't for you I should not know what i know now – so you have fulfilled your role. Be happy for it ….

Or are you realising that what you asked for is not quite what you expected – the outcome is not quite that, je n'est ce quo, cet, joie de vive!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,17:20)

WJ, I can feel the pride that you are feeling. Isn't it so good to know that you are fulfilling your deepest dearest desire – is that not why you are a Pastor – to teach others about your great God – why do you scorn (tho seekretly joyful) my gift to you. I said I like you – if it weren't for you I should not know what i know now – so you have fulfilled your role. Be happy for it …. Or are you realising that what you asked for is not quite what you expected – the outcome is not quite that, je n'est ce quo, cet, joie de vive!

JA

Your patronizing knows no bounds does it?

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,18:14)

Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods?  Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God.  What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point.  It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word.  He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures.  I will not run from correction.  If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source.  It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own. I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him. and, once made perfect, “he became THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2 Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus? How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not your source? The scriptures tell us that by Jesus all things consist, or are held together. (Col 1:17} The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author and finisher” of our faith. (Heb 12:2) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author” of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9) The scriptures tell us Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6 – 1 Cor 8:6) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Light of men”. (John 1:4) The scriptures tell us he is the “Eternal Life” and the “Word of Life”. (1 John 1:1-3 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that he “upholds all things by the word of his power”. (Heb 1:3) The scriptures tell us “if you have Jesus you have God”. (1 John 2:23 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that “Jesus has all things”. (Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27) All of the above shows that Jesus is the “Source” to us! However this does not deny that the Father is not also the source for they are “ONE”. For example, when you say that Jesus is not the source of life but the Father is, then you are denying Jesus very own words when he says “HE” is the “Life”. Jesus says “I am the Life”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is, you are just his FUNNEL.” Jesus says “I am the Truth”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is the Truth, and you are just a FUNNEL.” Jesus says “All things are mine”, Marty says “No they are not because the Father gave them to you.” Jesus says “All Authority and Power is given to me”, Marty says “no you do not have all authority and power because it is the Fathers and not yours.” Now here is the bombshell that destroys your “By and Through” Jesus theory that because scriptures speak of the Father doing things through Jesus then of course that means Jesus cannot be God also. For from him and **THROUGH HIM** and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. . Rom 11:36 Who is the above scripture speaking of? As you can see often Paul is speaking of God but it is not always clear if he is talking about the Father or Jesus. Now compare the language with this verse… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “**THROUGH WHOM** ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE“. 1 Cor 8:6 Now if all things are coming through him then it is a true statement that all things are coming from him! Since all things can also come through the Father as Rom 11:36 shows then the argument that all things coming through Jesus is proof he is not God is a “Straw”, unless of course you want to say that Rom 11:36 is Jesus, in either case it supports the Trinitarian view that Jesus is God! So in summary, if Jesus is not your source then you are none of his. For whoever has the Son has life! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Tell me Marty how is it that if Jesus has all things, then he is not your source. Eph 1:21 – Eph 4:10 – Phil 2:9,10 – Matt 28:18 – 1 Cor 15:27 – Heb 2:8 – 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is not the source then why did the Apostles and Paul determine to preach only Jesus and him crucified? (1 Cor 2:2 – 2 Cor 4:5) Why did Paul say that he counted all things but “Dung” to know Jesus? (Phil 3:8) What other name did you call on to be saved? So the truth of Gods word destroys the age ole fallacy that Jesus is not the source of all things when in fact it has pleased the Father that in him, Jesus should all fullness dwell! Some day Jesus will say too many, “Depart from me for “I NEVER KNEW YOU”! WJ

Hi WJ:

Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all that obey him because he obeyed our Father and our God even unto death on the cross.

He was sent by God, and it was God speaking to humanity through him, and it was God's Word that he obeyed and therefore, he is not the source.

The same Word of God that applies to me, applies to you as well. But I would never hope that he would say that he never knew you or anyone else, and so, I will continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth.

I know Jesus as my Lord, and I love him and am submitted to my God through him.

He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source. He said this:

Quote

John 17 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[JustAskin]

WJ,
Thank you. I'm glad we understand one another.

You bring out the best in me.

Why have you not welcomed our latest member who is in distress even though he has found God?

That's not very nice of you, is it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,18:14) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2010,20:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,02:42) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,21:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,13:29) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:40) Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:10) Quote (martian @ April 05 2010,18:19) Funny how they cling to Thomas calling Christ God as definitive proof of his deity and yet – They make excuses when Jesus himself calls The leaders of Israel Gods. This is a lie, Jesus doesn't call the leaders of Israel “Gods” with a big “G” but he quotes the Psalmist calling wicked judges and kings “gods” of which he says “they will die like men“ That’s because they were men and not “gods” at all. Jesus was rebuking their hypocrisy for condemning him when he says he was the Son of God, when they believed in “Their Law” he calls it (he is referring to the Talmud the oral laws and traditions of the Jews) in which they had falsely interpreted the scripture as condoning Polytheism! WJ Hi WJ: And so, they were men and not gods?  Is Jesus a man? Quote 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Love in Christ, Marty Marty Scriptures calls Jesus both. So should you! WJ Hi WJ: The scripture that I quoted says that there is “One God”, and you won't even accept that fact that Jesus himself has told you that he was going to his God and our God.  What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. He is my Lord and I love him and as submitted to God through him, but no, he is not my God. And so, you say that I should call him God because you say so? I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I will only obey the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Quote (942767 @ April 05 2010,20:59) What will it take to convince you?  If you stop up your ears so that you won't hear what the scriptures say in order to continue in your doctrine, I guess there is no hope that you will ever come into the knowledge of the simple truth. Marty You have a right to believe I am wrong, but how dare you make judgment on my relationship with the Lord by saying that I have stopped my ears to simple truth just because I do not agree with you and your doctrine. I have studied the scriptures for 36 years and have never been convinced to accept “another Jesus” than the one I first received. The scriptures have only strengthened my view of who Jesus really is! You have not proved your case and even if you think you have, can you say that you have perfect truth or that you are the only one here that loves the Lord and hears his voice? Do you think I haven’t prayed about these things also? WJ Hi WJ: You say the scriptures state that Jesus is both a man and God, and so, you worship him as God? The scriptures plainly state that there is “One God”, and I have stated that you have stopped up your ears to the statement that Jesus made about going to his God and our God because the scripture has been shared with you several times. I don't apologize to you for this because that is the way that it appears to me. You say that I haven't proven my point.  It is not what I say or you say that matters but it is what God has said through His Word.  He said that Jesus was His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and so that is who he is. As if I have stated to you, if I am wrong, correct me by the scriptures.  I will not run from correction.  If I am wrong, I want to be corrected. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Do the scriptures call Jesus God or not? Do the Apostles call Jesus God or not? Do the forefathers call Jesus God or not? You think that the number one is solitary! Either you believe that Jesus is “a god” or “The God” or you stick your head in the sand and deny the scriptures. That is a fact! WJ Hi WJ: The scriptures state that God made man in His own image.  Jesus is the last Adam, and is “the express image of God's person”. In John 14 he said, “he who hath seen me hath seen the Father”, and explained that it was the Father doing the works through him. Jesus is not the source.  It was God dwelling within him by His Spirit that he was obeying. I don't know how to make this any more simple for you. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Maybe that is your problem is you treat Jesus like some empty funnel that has no essence or substance of his own. I do not know what Jesus you serve but the Jesus I serve is the source of all things because all things are by him, from him and through him. and, once made perfect, “he beca me THE SOURCE of eternal salvation for all who obey him.” Heb 5:9 “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, **THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH**“, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2 Who are you looking to Marty? The Father through the funnel Jesus? How about these facts about Jesus, and then tell me how he is not your source? The scriptures tell us that by Jesus all things consist, or are held together. (Col 1:17} The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author and finisher” of our faith. (Heb 12:2) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Author” of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9) The scriptures tell us Jesus is “the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6 – 1 Cor 8:6) The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “Light of men”. (John 1:4) The scriptures tell us he is the “Eternal Life” and the “Word of Life”. (1 John 1:1-3 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that he “upholds all things by the word of his power”. (Heb 1:3) The scriptures tell us “if you have Jesus you have God”. (1 John 2:23 – 1 John 5:12) The scriptures tell us that “Jesus has all things”. (Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27) All of the above shows that Jesus is the “Source” to us! However this does not deny that the Father is not also the source for they are “ONE”. For example, when you say that Jesus is not the source of life but the Father is, then you are denying Jesus very own words when he says “HE” is the “Life”. Jesus says “I am the Life”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is, you are just his FUNNEL.” Jesus says “I am the Truth”, Marty says “no you are not, the Father is the Truth, and you are just a FUNNEL.” Jesus says “All things are mine”, Marty says “No they are not because the Father gave them to you.” Jesus says “All Authority and Power is given to me”, Marty says “no you do not have all authority and power because it is the Fathers and not yours.” Now here is the bombshell that destroys your “By and Through” Jesus theory that because scriptures speak of the Father doing things through Jesus then of course that means Jesus cannot be God also. For from him and **THROUGH HIM** and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. . Rom 11:36 Who is the above scripture speaking of? As you can see often Paul is speaking of God but it is not always clear if he is talking about the Father or Jesus. Now compare the language with this verse… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “**THROUGH WHOM** ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE“. 1 Cor 8:6 Now if all things are coming through him then it is a true statement that all things are coming from him! Since all things can also come through the Father as Rom 11:36 shows then the argument that all things coming through Jesus is proof he is not God is a “Straw”, unless of course you want to say that Rom 11:36 is Jesus, in either case it supports the Trinitarian view that Jesus is God! So in summary, if Jesus is not your source then you are none of his. For whoever has the Son has life! He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12 Tell me Marty how is it that if Jesus has all things, then he is not your source. Eph 1:21 – Eph 4:10 – Phil 2:9,10 – Matt 28:18 – 1 Cor 15:27 – Heb 2:8 – 1 Peter 3:22 If Jesus is not the source then why did the Apostles and Paul determine to preach only Jesus and him crucified? (1 Cor 2:2 – 2 Cor 4:5) Why did Paul say that he counted all things but “Dung” to know Jesus? (Phil 3:8) What other name did you call on to be saved? So the truth of Gods word destroys the age ole fallacy that Jesus is not the source of all things when in fact it has pleased the Father that in him, Jesus should all fullness dwell! Some day Jesus will say too many, “Depart from me for “I NEVER KNEW YOU”! WJ Hi WJ: Jesus is the author of eternal life unto all that obey him because he obeyed our Father and our God even unto death on the cross. He was sent by God, and it was God speaking to humanity through him, and it was God's Word that he obeyed and therefore, he is not the source. The same Word of God that applies to me, applies to you as well.  But I would never hope that he would say that he never knew you or anyone else, and so, I will continue to pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. I know Jesus as my Lord, and I love him and am submitted to my God through him. He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source.  He said this: Quote John 17 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Your proof text denys your very own words…

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, “that he (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him“.

Whos is giving the Eternal life here Marty? Who is the Life Marty? If it is Jesus then he is the source is he not?

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent John 17:1-3

Notice Marty that it is knowing both the Father and the Son that is the prerequisite to eternal life!

But Marty says…

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2010,17:46)

He already told us that he was not God and that he was not the source.

And that is not what Jesus said at all is it?

Where did he say he was not God? Scripture please! Where did he say that he was not the source? Scripture please.

I have shown you many scriptures that says Jesus is all those things to us and in fact possesses all things.

But you because of your own pride deny who he is and claim to follow a servant Messiah.

Jesus is no longer servant anymore Marty, he owns it all and posseses it all. Therefore for every true believer Jesus is the source of Eternal life and everything that we need!

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12

Marty in your opinion is Jesus the source of your life in him who is the life or not?

If not then I question your proposed devotion to Jesus who is the source of our life and eternal salvation!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,18:21)

WJ, Thank you. I'm glad we understand one another. You bring out the best in me. Why have you not welcomed our latest member who is in distress even though he has found God? That's not very nice of you, is it?

JA

Why do you always seek to find fault in me?

WJ

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