Preexistence

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2010,06:14)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 31 2010,20:15) OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse. One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words. Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture. So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong. Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right. Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh. I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error? Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?   Hi t8, Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself.  We see it in the created world ALL the time.  One nature begets one of the same nature.  Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other.  The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son.  He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be. In the OT we see the Father and the Son. The Father is the Lord God The Son is the outstretched arm of the Lord God In the OT that combination was referred to as the only God…two beings together as the only God.  The Jews did not understand two beings together as being the only God…it was revealed when the Father bared His arm and revealed the Son in the NT.  Isaiah foresaw this glory and wrote about it, John also mentioned this. In the NT the two are distinguished as the Father and the Son…both being deity, one greater than the other. The Son revealed the Father and the Father reveals and continues to reveal the Son. When it all comes down at the end, the Almighty God and the Lamb are the temple…together as one temple for us.  Together they act as one rule.  Both are called God in Revelations but they both have taken different roles since the beginning. As I understand things, the Father was the designer and gave the commands, the Son carries them out faithfully and perfectly empowered and guided by the inner person of the Father-the Holy Spirit.

LU

you saying ;When it all comes down at the end, the Almighty God and the Lamb are the temple…together as one temple for us. Together they act as one rule. Both are called God in

just think ,in a temple it takes ;a God = God the father

a high priest = Jesus

services priests = 144 000

total temple = the heavenly

Jerusalem .

thats the way i see it in scriptures

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,10:51)

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37) I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying. Hi All This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation. If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements! Blessings WJ

Hi WJ:

But the scriptures support that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that God was dwelling within in him and speaking the Word of God to humanity. Do you deny this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi WJ:

Ok., show me what it means that “he came down from heaven”, and show me “how he came down from heaven”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,19:02)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,10:51) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37) I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying. Hi All This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation. If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: But the scriptures support that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that God was dwelling within in him and speaking the Word of God to humanity.  Do you deny this? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

You are only speaking half truths and not the whole council of God, for instance you say Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost but you leave out the fact that it was a virgin that the Holy Spirit created his body in.

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4

The Father prepared a body for Jesus so that Jesus the Word that was with the Father could come into this world by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh! John 1:1, 14 – Phil 2:6-8 – Heb 10:5

Every conception is a part of the creation process. The Holy Spirit caused the conception and the Power of the highest over shadowed her. Luke 1:35

The miracle of the incarnation of Jesus is why Jesus is the second Adam!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,19:28)

Hi WJ: Ok., show me what it means that “he came down from heaven”, and show me “how he came down from heaven”. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

I started a thread to address this very thing in the debates thread.

So I will be happy to continue that conversation there when you answer my last post!

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,11:41)

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,19:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,10:51) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37) I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying. Hi All This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation. If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: But the scriptures support that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that God was dwelling within in him and speaking the Word of God to humanity.  Do you deny this? Love in Christ, Marty Marty You are only speaking half truths and not the whole council of God, for instance you say Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost but you leave out the fact that it was a virgin that the Holy Spirit created his body in. The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4 The Father prepared a body for Jesus so that Jesus the Word that was with the Father could come into this world by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh! John 1:1, 14 – Phil 2:6-8 – Heb 10:5 Every conception is a part of the creation process. The Holy Spirit caused the conception and the Power of the highest over shadowed her. Luke 1:35 The miracle of the incarnation of Jesus is why Jesus is the second Adam! WJ

Hi WJ:

And so, I spoke a half truth because I failed to mention that the Holy Ghost overshadowed the virgin Mary and the body of Jesus was conceived in her womb?

The point was to show how he came from heaven, and so, if what I have written is not true, show me how he came down from heaven or even if what I said is a half truth. Expound on it and give us the whole truth.

And also, what he means in Hebrews 10 when he says to God, “a body thou has prepared for me”. What is he saying when he says “me”?

And for you the kicker scripture, is Philippians 2:6. Show me how he was “in the form of God” prior to his birth into this world. That scripture does not read, “he was in the form of God before he was born into this world…”, and so, you are adding to the scriptures in order to support your doctrine.

He is the last Adam, because He is the “Only Begotten Son of the Living God” who is the express image of God's person as manifest through the works that he did in obedience to God our heavenly Father. And we also, who are born again, are being made in his image as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily life. We will be like him when he comes for the church if we continue in the faith.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,20:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,11:41) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,19:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,10:51) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37) I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying. Hi All This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation. If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: But the scriptures support that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that God was dwelling within in him and speaking the Word of God to humanity.  Do you deny this? Love in Christ, Marty Marty You are only speaking half truths and not the whole council of God, for instance you say Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost but you leave out the fact that it was a virgin that the Holy Spirit created his body in. The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4 The Father prepared a body for Jesus so that Jesus the Word that was with the Father could come into this world by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh! John 1:1, 14 – Phil 2:6-8 – Heb 10:5 Every conception is a part of the creation process. The Holy Spirit caused the conception and the Power of the highest over shadowed her. Luke 1:35 The miracle of the incarnation of Jesus is why Jesus is the second Adam! WJ Hi WJ: And so, I spoke a half truth because I failed to mention that the Holy Ghost overshadowed the virgin Mary and the body of Jesus was conceived in her womb? The point was to show how he came from heaven, and so, if what I have written is not true, show me how he came down from heaven or even if what I said is a half truth.  Expound on it and give us the whole truth. And also, what he means in Hebrews 10 when he says to God, “a body thou has prepared for me”.  What is he saying when he says “me”? And for you the kicker scripture, is Philippians 2:6.  Show me how he was “in the form of God” prior to his birth into this world.  That scripture does not read, “he was in the form of God before he was born into this world…”, and so, you are adding to the scriptures in order to support your doctrine.   He is the last Adam, because He is the “Only Begotten Son of the Living God” who is the express image of God's person as manifest through the works that he did in obedience to God our heavenly Father.  And we also, who are born again, are being made in his image as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily life.  We will be like him when he comes for the church if we continue in the faith. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

I will respond to you in the debates thread. That way there is no interference by all the hacklers here that do nothing but yip at your ankles like an anoying chua wa!

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,12:21)

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,20:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,11:41) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,19:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,10:51) Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37) I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying. Hi All This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation. If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: But the scriptures support that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that God was dwelling within in him and speaking the Word of God to humanity.  Do you deny this? Love in Christ, Marty Marty You are only speaking half truths and not the whole council of God, for instance you say Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost but you leave out the fact that it was a virgin that the Holy Spirit created his body in. The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4 The Father prepared a body for Jesus so that Jesus the Word that was with the Father could come into this world by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh! John 1:1, 14 – Phil 2:6-8 – Heb 10:5 Every conception is a part of the creation process. The Holy Spirit caused the conception and the Power of the highest over shadowed her. Luke 1:35 The miracle of the incarnation of Jesus is why Jesus is the second Adam! WJ Hi WJ: And so, I spoke a half truth because I failed to mention that the Holy Ghost overshadowed the virgin Mary and the body of Jesus was conceived in her womb? The point was to show how he came from heaven, and so, if what I have written is not true, show me how he came down from heaven or even if what I said is a half truth.  Expound on it and give us the whole truth. And also, what he means in Hebrews 10 when he says to God, “a body thou has prepared for me”.  What is he saying when he says “me”? And for you the kicker scripture, is Philippians 2:6.  Show me how he was “in the form of God” prior to his birth into this world.  That scripture does not read, “he was in the form of God before he was born into this world…”, and so, you are adding to the scriptures in order to support your doctrine.   He is the last Adam, because He is the “Only Begotten Son of the Living God” who is the express image of God's person as manifest through the works that he did in obedience to God our heavenly Father.  And we also, who are born again, are being made in his image as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily life.  We will be like him when he comes for the church if we continue in the faith. Love in Christ, Marty Marty I will respond to you in the debates thread. That way there is no interference by all the hacklers here that do nothing but yip at your ankles like an anoying chua wa! WJ

Hi WJ:

I haven't seen anyone try to come in on our discussion. I don't like the term “debate”. It gives me the impression that someone is trying to win some sort of a contest, and that should not be our goal, but it should be to study God's Word so that we can teach the Word of God in truth.

If I am not teaching the truth, I am not running away from correction but toward it, but I have given you my understanding. I can't do any more than that.

If you think that I need to be corrected, correct me through the scriptures.

The scriptures state that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. What do you mean by the term “the incarnation”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,21:03)

The scriptures state that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.  What do you mean by the term “the incarnation”?

Marty

I have already answered this in the debates thread.

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 02 2010,16:41)

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 03 2010,04:21) Marty!  If you want to leave it at that, that is up to you.  However I am not going to stand for that you think I am interpreting Scriptures.  I am not.  I am writing them the way they are written.  And I am saying what it is written.  When I say I came down from upstairs, would you think that I did not?  NO.  But when Jesus said so, you do not believe Him?  No my friend I am not interpreting any of those Scriptures.  I am reading them to you, right from the Word of God, the Bible.  And the statement that you made that Jesus  did not say that He preexisted, is so wrong.  He did not call it that way, but what do you think when He said in John 17:5 that He wants the glory back which He had before the world was?  We know that He is a Spirit Being today, and that is what He was before the world was,  That is what Jesus said, not I. Math, 15:9 Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene, Scripture says the Son of Man ascended to where he was before So do you believe the pre-existing Jesus was a MAN?

Hi Jodi,
I hope you don't mind me taking a shot at helping you understand this by using an example from the movie, “The Sound of Music.” I am assuming that you have seen this movie…here goes:

Maria was a nun
She was sent to be the Von Trapp children's nanny
She was falling in love with Captain Von Trapp who had a girlfriend
Confused as to what to do, the children's nanny went back to where she was before (the convent).
(that doesn't mean that she was a nanny before, does it)

The Son of God was in the presence of the Father
He was sent to earth to become the Son of Man
The Son of Man died and went back to where He was before…
in the presence of the Father.

NET ©
And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

NET ©
Jesus replied, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Jesus was not a man before He came as a man…He was and always will be the Son of God. The Son of God became a man but never stopped being the Son of God.

Sorta like you were and always will be the daughter of your father.

Another example:
A man's daughter named Sally grows up in Illinois
Goes to college in Indiana,
Gets married and lives in Indiana,
Her husband dies
the widow goes back to where she was before…Illinois to be with her father.
That is obviously not saying that she was a widow in Illinois before.

Sally was and always will be the daughter of her father, she went away and became a wife and then a widow, the widow then went back to her father, where she was before.

I hope that helps

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,13:28)

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,21:03) The scriptures state that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.  What do you mean by the term “the incarnation”? Marty I have already answered this in the debates thread. WJ

Hi WJ,

Typical, you would rather spend your efforts telling someone they are 'wrong' than give an answer to a question?
You also spend a lot of time complaining that people don't answer your questions, but miss the connection! (Ps.18:25-27)

Prob.3:11-13 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD;
neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth;
even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,
and the man that getteth understanding. (You are on the road to getting understanding though!)

Your brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ April 03 2010,00:45)

Hi WJ, Typical, you would rather spend your efforts telling someone they are 'wrong' than give an answer to a question?

ED

This is a lie and you know it. Why don't you respond to Marty about all the questions I left him that went unanswered in the debates thread?

Look, you often point to a link of a post that you have already answered.

Why are you insistant on harrasing me?

I have a lot of post to respond to because we, Jack and I are out numbered and have a life ouside of HN. So why do you find fault in what I do?

The answer to Martys question is where I pointed him to.

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 02 2010,07:52)

Well, I do believe that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before the world was. By Jesus own words in John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me…. Col.1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation….. Col. 1:18 He also is the firstborn of the death that in all things He may have preeminence….and more. See my previous post to Marty…. Peace and Love Irene

Oh yeah, I realise that there are others here such as yourself that believe that the true God is the Father and that he sent his son into the world. That the son as the Word was with God in the beginning and emptied himself and took on human nature and was born as one of us.

This great work means that we now can become one of him (so to speak).

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2010,06:14)

Hi t8, Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself.  We see it in the created world ALL the time.  One nature begets one of the same nature.  Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other.  The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son.  He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be.

I agree Lightenup, that kind reproduces after itself and even God makes in his image.

I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and being God though in the same sense that there is also one Devil, but there are many devils. That is to say, that there is one identified as (the) God, who is the Father, and there is one Devil who is identified as Satan/Beelzebub. There are many who are called theos, even men, just as there are many who are devils.

The difference is identity and nature/quality. Even Judas was called a devil because in quality he was like the Devil.

Another example is Adam who is identified as the original man, but “adam” (no article), actually means mankind. Same thing. There is one Adam, but many adams.

Before others start accusing me of Polytheism, (as what Trinitarians tend to do when I state this), please note that I am advocating that there is one who is identified as the true God the Father, and that we can share in his divine nature and be conformed into the image of.

Those who think this is Polytheism lack understanding. To have many God's is to have more than one true God. I think Trinitarianism is guilty of this. To believe that there is one God the Father is to believe in the one true God and in doing so respects the first commandment.

[JustAskin]

How quickly and easily Trinitarians go off guard.

WJ openly admits that Jesus was born flesh and blood but then suddenly claims that Jesus is God whenever the occassion gets hairy.

For instance:
How is Jesus God if he needs his father to make him into a human?
How is Jesus God if he needs his father to give him power and authority to do things?
How is Jesus God if he can die?

Jesys raised the dead. Does that make him God? Yes, say Trinitarians.
So what then of Elisha, did he not raise the dead?
Moses parted the waters, as did Elisha. Are they God because of that?
Elisha healed the sick and caused others to be sick. Surely, only God can do those things?

Well, we do know the answer to all those questions.

It is 'NO' they are not God, but God was working through them.

How many times are scriptures repeated for our benefit, so God can show us at every point that which will happen before it happens.

Refering to the events in the old testament with care and caution greatly enhances the understanding of events in the new testament. And indeed, thus is what Jesus does when he says 'It is written…' or 'Did you not read where…' and many other undocumented times when he spoke in the temple and privately to his disciples.

At no times does Jesus claim to be God.
At no time does Jesus claim equality with God.
At no time does Jesus claim that the things he does is by any other means but by the authority 'Given' to him by his father and empowered by the Holy Spirit which is the HOLY SPIRIT of the father.

The Trinity doctrine is broken almost in every thread in this forum by the very ones who claim to uphold it.

How many times do they make reference to the 'unity' of the three in their scriptural defence of a topic?
Answer: Almost never. The exception is when the issue us raised and they suddenly start infering a link.

How many times do they make a unity of the father and son in total exclusion of the third partnership of the Holy Spirit?
Answer:Almost always. The exception is where the moment's issue is concerning the trinity.

The long and short if it is this:
Even Trinitarians don't believe the Trinity.
Even Trinitarians don't uphold the trinity doctrine unless they are made to be pointedly aware that the situation requires them to make reference.

The book of Revelation illustrates the kingdom of heaven and quite clearly shows God Almighty seated on His throne with the Lamb 'standing' in the midst of the throne of God, amongst the elders… And yet trinitarians still say that it is Jesus who is sitting on the throne?

Revelation also show God and the Lamb being given Praise, Honor and Glory but only God is given Worship (Rev 7:11, Rev 14:7, Rev 19:4, 10, Rev: 22:9) but still they say Jesus is God and we should worship him.

In actuallity, trinitarians do not worship Jesus – they know better than to do that. What they do, is 'Claim' that they do because the creed says that Jesus IS GOD and it is undisputed that the Scriptures say 'Worship God', ha!

Do they then worship the Holy Spirit? Of course not!
But the scriptures say… Ah, and, ha!

What benefit or truth is there in a doctrine that varies according to the discussion and the believers are only reminded of their belief when their backs are against the wall.

Fear God, all his creation.

Worship God, all his creation.

Who fears Jesus? Only the Wicked when He executes the word of God and brings about their Judgement.

(Read the scriptures and make a note of this, fear God!)

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ April 03 2010,05:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2010,06:14) Hi t8, Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself.  We see it in the created world ALL the time.  One nature begets one of the same nature.  Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other.  The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son.  He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be. I agree Lightenup, that kind reproduces after itself and even God makes in his image. I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and being God though in the same sense that there is also one Devil, but there are many devils. That is to say, that there is one identified as (the) God, who is the Father, and there is one Devil who is identified as Satan/Beelzebub. There are many who are called theos, even men, just as there are many who are devils. The difference is identity and nature/quality. Even Judas was called a devil because in quality he was like the Devil. Another example is Adam who is identified as the original man, but “adam” (no article), actually means mankind. Same thing. There is one Adam, but many adams. Before others start accusing me of Polytheism, (as what Trinitarians tend to do when I state this), please note that I am advocating that there is one who is identified as the true God the Father, and that we can share in his divine nature and be conformed into the image of. Those who think this is Polytheism lack understanding. To have many God's is to have more than one true God. I think Trinitarianism is guilty of this. To believe that there is one God the Father is to believe in the one true God and in doing so respects the first commandment.

Hi t8,

You said:

Quote

I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and being God though in the same sense that there is also one Devil, but there are many devils. That is to say, that there is one identified as (the) God, who is the Father, and there is one Devil who is identified as Satan/Beelzebub. There are many who are called theos, even men, just as there are many who are devils.

I understand what you are saying but I would change your first sentence to read: “I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and having divine nature combined with always existing and being the source of all that is good.” I think that is an important difference between the Father and the Son. The Father always existed and is the source of all things good. As I understand it, the Son did not always exist and was not the source of all things good even though all things were created by Him…those things that were created by Him originally came from the Father.

It is true that others are called theos however it is clear that they are not by original nature, theos, but they are acting by authority over others like God does.

The Son of God does not fit into the category of not having the original nature of theos so I don't think your argument is valid. He is in no way equal to those in that category. Angels have an angelic nature and men have a human nature. The Son of God has a deity nature which automatically makes Him of the same kind as His Father, deity.

There is one identified as the true God…the Father, and one identified as the only Son of God…Jesus. In the OT, the Father and the Son were called “the Lord God with the outstretched Arm” and were together worshiped and thought of as one God and that is the way the Father portrayed the one God that was spoken about in the first commandment. The Jews thought that God was one being but we know now, after the Father “bared His Arm,” that His Arm was indeed a separate being all along…His only Son. Isaiah saw that truth and John also confirms this.

You say that there is one Adam, but many adams. True and they all have the nature of a human.

There is one true God, but two gods that have the nature of a god and those two gods make up one Godhead together with the Holy Spirit (inner person) of the one true God. One is greater than the other but the other is greater than everything else. So, see how we have two that are greater than everything and only two with the original nature as deity? Neither one of them could be equal to anything that might be “called” deity who don't actually have a deity nature as their original nature.

I realize that believers will be partakers of the divine nature but the Son of God always had it and that is a huge difference.

Believer's with a human nature will “partake” of the divine nature in the future. The Son of God with a deity nature “partook” of the human nature but remained the Son of God at the same time. To make that work, He gave (for a time) up what He needed to give up, i.e. his supernatural ability, memories and His body form, for example.

Jesus has always been the only God alongside the True God.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 03 2010,22:01)

How quickly and easily Trinitarians go off guard. WJ openly admits that Jesus was born flesh and blood but then suddenly claims that Jesus is God whenever the occassion gets hairy. For instance: How is Jesus God if he needs his father to make him into a human? How is Jesus God if he needs his father to give him power and authority to do things? How is Jesus God if he can die? Jesys raised the dead. Does that make him God? Yes, say Trinitarians. So what then of Elisha, did he not raise the dead? Moses parted the waters, as did Elisha. Are they God because of that? Elisha healed the sick and caused others to be sick. Surely, only God can do those things? Well, we do know the answer to all those questions. It is 'NO' they are not God, but God was working through them. How many times are scriptures repeated for our benefit, so God can show us at every point that which will happen before it happens. Refering to the events in the old testament with care and caution greatly enhances the understanding of events in the new testament. And indeed, thus is what Jesus does when he says 'It is written…' or 'Did you not read where…' and many other undocumented times when he spoke in the temple and privately to his disciples. At no times does Jesus claim to be God. At no time does Jesus claim equality with God. At no time does Jesus claim that the things he does is by any other means but by the authority 'Given' to him by his father and empowered by the Holy Spirit which is the HOLY SPIRIT of the father. The Trinity doctrine is broken almost in every thread in this forum by the very ones who claim to uphold it. How many times do they make reference to the 'unity' of the three in their scriptural defence of a topic? Answer: Almost never. The exception is when the issue us raised and they suddenly start infering a link. How many times do they make a unity of the father and son in total exclusion of the third partnership of the Holy Spirit? Answer:Almost always. The exception is where the moment's issue is concerning the trinity. The long and short if it is this: Even Trinitarians don't believe the Trinity. Even Trinitarians don't uphold the trinity doctrine unless they are made to be pointedly aware that the situation requires them to make reference. The book of Revelation illustrates the kingdom of heaven and quite clearly shows God Almighty seated on His throne with the Lamb 'standing' in the midst of the throne of God, amongst the elders… And yet trinitarians still say that it is Jesus who is sitting on the throne? Revelation also show God and the Lamb being given Praise, Honor and Glory but only God is given Worship (Rev 7:11, Rev 14:7, Rev 19:4, 10, Rev: 22:9) but still they say Jesus is God and we should worship him. In actuallity, trinitarians do not worship Jesus – they know better than to do that. What they do, is 'Claim' that they do because the creed says that Jesus IS GOD and it is undisputed that the Scriptures say 'Worship God', ha! Do they then worship the Holy Spirit? Of course not! But the scriptures say… Ah, and, ha! What benefit or truth is there in a doctrine that varies according to the discussion and the believers are only reminded of their belief when their backs are against the wall. Fear God, all his creation. Worship God, all his creation. Who fears Jesus? Only the Wicked when He executes the word of God and brings about their Judgement. (Read the scriptures and make a note of this, fear God!)

JA……….Well Said, They just do not understand Jesus was one of US in (EVERY) WAY without exception, and had GOD chose another they would have performed Just as Jesus DID. Preexistences do as much damage to the work of GOD and Jesus as TRINITARIANS DO , in fact the TRINITARIANS are the One who have always pushed Jesus Preexistence as if that shouldn't even give them a clue of it falseness.

peace and love to you and yours…………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41)

Quote (t8 @ April 03 2010,05:05) Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2010,06:14) Hi t8, Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself.  We see it in the created world ALL the time.  One nature begets one of the same nature.  Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other.  The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son.  He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be. I agree Lightenup, that kind reproduces after itself and even God makes in his image. I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and being God though in the same sense that there is also one Devil, but there are many devils. That is to say, that there is one identified as (the) God, who is the Father, and there is one Devil who is identified as Satan/Beelzebub. There are many who are called theos, even men, just as there are many who are devils. The difference is identity and nature/quality. Even Judas was called a devil because in quality he was like the Devil. Another example is Adam who is identified as the original man, but “adam” (no article), actually means mankind. Same thing. There is one Adam, but many adams. Before others start accusing me of Polytheism, (as what Trinitarians tend to do when I state this), please note that I am advocating that there is one who is identified as the true God the Father, and that we can share in his divine nature and be conformed into the image of. Those who think this is Polytheism lack understanding. To have many God's is to have more than one true God. I think Trinitarianism is guilty of this. To believe that there is one God the Father is to believe in the one true God and in doing so respects the first commandment. Hi t8, You said: Quote I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and being God though in the same sense that there is also one Devil, but there are many devils. That is to say, that there is one identified as (the) God, who is the Father, and there is one Devil who is identified as Satan/Beelzebub. There are many who are called theos, even men, just as there are many who are devils. I understand what you are saying but I would change your first sentence to read: “I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and having divine nature combined with always existing and being the source of all that is good.”  I think that is an important difference between the Father and the Son.  The Father always existed and is the source of all things good.  As I understand it, the Son did not always exist and was not the source of all things good even though all things were created by Him…those things that were created by Him originally came from the Father. It is true that others are called theos however it is clear that they are not by original nature, theos, but they are acting by authority over others like God does. The Son of God does not fit into the category of not having the original nature of theos so I don't think your argument is valid.  He is in no way equal to those in that category.  Angels have an angelic nature and men have a human nature.  The Son of God has a deity nature which automatically makes Him of the same kind as His Father, deity. There is one identified as the true God…the Father, and one identified as the only Son of God…Jesus.  In the OT, the Father and the Son were called “the Lord God with the outstretched Arm” and were together worshiped and thought of as one God and that is the way the Father portrayed the one God that was spoken about in the first commandment.  The Jews thought that God was one being but we know now, after the Father “bared His Arm,” that His Arm was indeed a separate being all along…His only Son. Isaiah saw that truth and John also confirms this. You say that there is one Adam, but many adams.  True and they all have the nature of a human. There is one true God, but two gods that have the nature of a god and those two gods make up one Godhead together with the Holy Spirit (inner person) of the one true God.  One is greater than the other but the other is greater than everything else.  So, see how we have two that are greater than everything and only two with the original nature as deity?  Neither one of them could be equal to anything that might be “called” deity who don't actually have a deity nature as their original nature. I realize that believers will be partakers of the divine nature but the Son of God always had it and that is a huge difference. Believer's with a human nature will “partake” of the divine nature in the future.  The Son of God with a deity nature “partook” of the human nature but remained the Son of God at the same time.  To make that work, He gave (for a time) up what He needed to give up, i.e. his supernatural ability, memories and His body form, for example. Jesus has always been the only God alongside the True God.

LU

God use Christ to create all things ,it is just like you would build your house by using your own son to build

it is still your house and your taste and your design,your son only provided the means ,

it is trough your son that you would have build your house right??

would he be the builder???if so all the workers would have the equal rights then.

[Lightenup]

Jesus built the house, yet the builder of all things is God. Jesus has the honor of building the house, the house of believers and ultimately the Father has built all things. Both built us…both receive the honor…they took different roles. One as the Master Architect-the Father, the other as the Master Craftsman-the Son. Only two involved there. The same with creation.

Heb 3:1-6
3 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house — whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
NASU

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2010,03:41)

I understand what you are saying but I would change your first sentence to read: “I believe there is a difference between having divine nature and having divine nature combined with always existing and being the source of all that is good.” I think that is an important difference between the Father and the Son. The Father always existed and is the source of all things good. As I understand it, the Son did not always exist and was not the source of all things good even though all things were created by Him…those things that were created by Him originally came from the Father.

Absolutely. God has divine nature and he shares that nature. He is the source and Jesus is the image.

The son is not the original, he is of God. He is the prototype son.

[Author]

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