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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,08:21) Hi not3
You say
“However, preexistence suggests that some being lived “before” they actually existed. “
What does this mean?
Angels have come to earth and been seen as human.
Did they preexist?
When angels “came down from heaven” and were seen as men, they did not go through a conception and take 9 months to be woven inside of a womb! They were instantly transformed.There is a bit of a difference between angels and the Son of God, wouldn't you say?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,19:10) Hi Not3,
The son is a part of the Father??
Then he is not a son.
Misunderstanding.The point I'm trying to make is that they are related.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,19:09) Hi Not3,
Absolutely.
And scripture says Jesus was a man.
But you would beg to differ?
No, I don't wish to differ.I believe Jesus is a man. Son of Man.
I believe Jesus is divine. Son of God.Scripture states both.
But in either/both cases —- he is a man. Very true.
Hi not3,
Point 1 has much to support it in scripture.
Point 2 fails for lack of supportexcept before he came.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,20:08) Hi not3,
Point 1 has much to support it in scripture.
Point 2 fails for lack of supportexcept before he came.
Interesting.The scriptural evidence that Jesus is the Son of God is given everywhere! God, himself, declared it to Peter and a bunch of other folks who heard the voice from heave. God told Peter that Jesus was the Son of the Living God.
Not “a” son of the Living God – but – THE Son of the Living God! A true SON.
I am beginning to understand what the scriptures are saying when they say people will deny the SON……
It is too much for some to believe that God could have *Fathered* a son. Too much for them to believe that Jesus is the ANNOINTED ONE. Does being the “Annointed One” qualify in any way of being the least bit divine? Were others considered to be the “Annointed One”?
Scriptural support for being a divine man is found in the gospels which declares God's holy Spirit conceived in Mary the precious Annointed One – God's ONLY Son. That is all the proof we should need.
No other man heard and saw the things of God that Jesus heard and saw. No other man could say that he knew the Father and the Father knew him. Is this not a divine quality or maybe just a privilege? And if a privilege – then did Jesus have something over on us? And if he had something over on us – can we follow him?
Hio not3,
Perhaps I should have been more accurate.
You said
“I believe Jesus is divine. Son of God.”
Of course he is the Son of God.
Does that make him DIVINE?
There are no DIVINE MEN in the bible, only men and God.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:36) This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist: Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….
Hey IS,Is it absurd? You yourself said that the heavenly host should now the Father so surely the words are not as clear as they seem.
Let me ask you, which of God's creations has the indwelling of the Spirit at all times? Yeshua was the union of the Spirit and Man. Therefore, the bond that existed through the Spirit gave Yeshua an intimate knowledge of the Father. In other words, some thought they knew the Father, but none knew Him as intimately as the Son. I don't know that this would point so much to eternal existence as it would the bond between Father and Son. This bond exists because of the Holy Spirit.
Just as the Holy Spirit teaches us all things, so much more did it teach Yeshua of his Father. That is why Yeshua said he must leave, so that the Helper could be passed on us. It is the Holy Spirit in us that helps us to know the Father in conjunction with prayer and Bible study.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,09:02) Hio not3,
Perhaps I should have been more accurate.
You said
“I believe Jesus is divine. Son of God.”
Of course he is the Son of God.
Does that make him DIVINE?
There are no DIVINE MEN in the bible, only men and God.
You are right when you say there were no divine men in the Bible, that is, until there was Jesus!Heb. 1:1,2 [emphasis mine]
“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his SON whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 3
“The SON is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word……”
Just a man? Or would you say this qualifies Jesus as, at lease, “sort-of” divine?
Can any of the things attributed to Jesus in the first part of Hebrews be attributed to any other man *except* Jesus? And if the answer is no – what does that make Jesus? Certainly it makes him *more-than* what you are, or what I am. Certainly it makes him *more-than* a common man. No?
Hi KJ,
Christ was the union of the Spirit and man?
Christ was man.
However God contributed to the conception of Jesus it did not make him any more than a man.He was not born indwelled by the Spirit giving him a headstart.
he was anointed by that Spirit at the Jordan.
We follow him.Nick,
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I follow scripture that says that Yeshua was conceived of a union of the Holy Spirit and Mary (Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:35). If you disagree than you disbelieve scripture. Can't help ya on that one.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 16 2007,13:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2007,09:02) Hio not3,
Perhaps I should have been more accurate.
You said
“I believe Jesus is divine. Son of God.”
Of course he is the Son of God.
Does that make him DIVINE?
There are no DIVINE MEN in the bible, only men and God.
You are right when you say there were no divine men in the Bible, that is, until there was Jesus!Heb. 1:1,2 [emphasis mine]
“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his SON whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 3
“The SON is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word……”
Just a man? Or would you say this qualifies Jesus as, at lease, “sort-of” divine?
Can any of the things attributed to Jesus in the first part of Hebrews be attributed to any other man *except* Jesus? And if the answer is no – what does that make Jesus? Certainly it makes him *more-than* what you are, or what I am. Certainly it makes him *more-than* a common man. No?
Hi not3,
You must not confuse his amazing previous state with God before he emptied himself and he came as an ordinary man.Hi Not3in1.
Quote taken from the Trinity discussion.
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 17 2007,05:29) But the Father would turn his power over (for a limited time ONLY) to his biological Son.
So Jesus is a physical son only?Yet there are other sons that must be greater than him because spirit is greater than flesh.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.Who is greater, a spirit son or a physical son? Does a physical son have authority even over spiritual and older sons?
What answer do you (or Unitarians) have regarding that? Just curios?
Thanks.
Quote So Jesus is a physical son only? God is Spirit. Man is flesh. Jesus is both.
Quote Yet there are other sons that must be greater than him because spirit is greater than flesh. Moses is mere man but Jesus is greater than Moses because he is a Son. The angels are spirit and yet God has never said to them, “Sit at my right.”
Quote John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.The flesh obviously counts for something……Jesus had to die a flesh-and-blood death to be our sacrifice.
You and me are mere men, we are not spirit beings nor have we been – do we count for nothing?
Of course we are made alive by being reborn, but Jesus didn't need to be “re-born” as he was already what we will become!Quote Who is greater, a spirit son or a physical son? Does a physical son have authority even over spiritual and older sons? Jesus has authority over the angels. God never said to an angel, “Sit here at my right.” And the heavenly hosts will also be subject to the Son. While on earth, I believe Jesus did not have power over the angels or he would have told Peter that HE could command the angels to assist him. Instead he said that he could ask his Father to command the angels to assist him. I'm not sure if this answers your questions or not?
I sure hope the quote thingy worked or this post will be a mess!
One last point I'd like to make regarding “spiritual older sons” of God…….they are CREATED but Jesus was CONCEIVED.
There is a huge difference.
Hi not3,
Because Jesus was conceived of the Spirit is he a new kind of special spirit man?
Scripture just says he is a man, and does not speak of different men.Scripture speaks of Jesus being a Son of Man AND a Son of God. Because we know that Mary conceived through God's holy Spirit, we know that the pregnancy was truly one of God's biological Son. Otherwise, really, the conception/pregnancy/birth was a total sham – a trick played on us simple-minded folks.
If scripture speaks of Jesus thus, then he must be a “new kind” of man! Still very much a man (he had flesh and blood – male gender), but unique just the same. The gospels record his unique relationship to the Father.
According to your preexistence theology, Jesus would most definitely be a “new kind” of man! A man that had lived before; a man that was put alongside flesh but did not partake of the normal conception process; a man that was both flesh and a preexistent person! Now that's NEW!
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 17 2007,11:19) One last point I'd like to make regarding “spiritual older sons” of God…….they are CREATED but Jesus was CONCEIVED. There is a huge difference.
Hi not3,
I agree they were part of creation.
But the monogenes Son of God is the firstborn of Creation, the beginning of the creation of God and all things were made through him.
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