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WJ,
A little while back I asked a question to you (and/or TT) that has not yet been responded to. This is in reference to Micah 5:2:
Does God have a 'Goings Forth'?In addition to this I will ask a few more qyuestions:
You say Jesus is God because you say he existed from eternity. But God, himself, calls Jesus 'His Messenger' (Malachi 3:1) and in Isaiah 50:10 He is called 'His Servant', also, Micah 5:4 declares that he will rule 'in the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majesty of the name of the LORD (YHWH) His God…'
How do you reconcile these few (amongst many others verses) with your idea that He, himself, IS God?Secondly, you declare that Jesus is 'my Lord and my God' and you can say that because it means 'He is this to you', it is not a declaration of universal truth.
None the less, you do not declare that the Holy Spirit is your 'Lord and your God', and we know that you say that the Holy Spirit, to you, is also God but let me say it for you:
'WJ declares that Jesus is his God, God is His God and the Holy Spirit is his God'
Is this wrong? How would you put it (that's not the question!)
My question is this: Do you worship the God that is Jesus and the God that is the Holy Spirit, as directed by the Scriptures: 'Thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God and Him (?them?) only give sacred service'Two more:
Are we instructed to worship Christ or the Holy Spirit, or offer Sacred service to them?
Are we instructed to 'Fear' Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit?WJ,
I will take issue with your contextual definition of 'Eternity' in reference to 'the Word'.
God's Word is indeed 'Eternal'…
– Eternal, from the time that they are spoken;
– Everlasting, from the point of uttering;
– From the Beginning until forever.Since there was a 'Beginning', it stands to reason that there was a 'time' before the Beginning, before God Almighty spoke His Word ('Let there be Light'?) and brought about the 'Beginning of His creation', even His Eternal Word, through whom and for whom all things were created …', the Light that is the Life of men.
WJ,
I note your qoute wherein you say that I have a typical narrow minded view of the nature of God.
Well, can I just ask you to enlighten me, please:
I know that the nature of God is Spirit and that Jesus is also 'in Spirit', in the same nature as God.
The Scriptures say that 'No one has seen God' (more explicitly, 'no one has seen 'the face of God' who dwells in indescribable light)
But we have seen Jesus (the Faithful Witness and firstborn from the dead, and ruler over the kings of the earth: Rev 1:5)
How many have seen visions of Heaven and seen Jesus (with description of his face) at the righthand of God, but no description of His face.
Moreover, why the destinction between Jesus and God in the firstplace, Jesus Is God and God is Jesus, isn't He?
One God, TWO seperate persons, separately described, acting [physically] independently but with [Spiritually] unity to execute One ideal, One intent, One Word (that Word issued by Him who dwells in indescribable light – God Almighty)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2010,17:13) All these mad anti-Trinitarians can't do anythig but spit out poisness accusations. Since they cannot refute the truth they just resort to personal attacks! Reminds me of the treatment they gave Jesus when they stopped their ears from hearing the truth because they could not refute his words.
It also reminds me of little boys and girls on the school yard poking and making fun of others, like children do!
Things havn't changed much. Whats amazing is they actually believe “They have all truth” about the nature of an infinite God! How pitiful!
WJ
OOOOO I am so convicted…… NOT!!!!!!!!Kar,
It would be nice to think that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved.
Fortunately, it's a little harder than that.
One has to also believe in the revelation that he brought from his Father concerning his Father, his Father's Kingdom and events past, present and future concerning redemption from Sin and Life as a spiritual Son of the Father if we repent, change pur ways and walk in the ways of the Father.
If we belueve that Jesus is God, himself, then we also believe that Jesus was not a man, that he did not come in the flesh and die as a perfect sinless man (for is God a Son, devoid of power, tempted by an angel, abused by fleshly nan, and above all, die?)
In addition, if Jesus presented to others in the wrong way, it can lead to wrongful worship of Jesus. In effect, we place Jesys in the same position that Satan wished for himself, to sit on the throne of God from his own works rather than as a reward for his works (Notice that in the 'Lucifer' story, that Satan was a glorious, anointed Cherub who was supreme in his office (What does it mean to be anointed?). He desired Worship from mankind because of his mighty works. 'But surely he deserved it', didn't he?, he worked so hard!, Worship that is strictly for God Almighty alone!)
The truth is that at no time did Jesus claim to be God, nor make any claim anything that he did was by any other means but his Father, God Almighty and the Holy Spirit, which is of the God, God Almighty.
Remember, Jesus also said “Many will come saying 'Lord, we spoke in your name' but I will say to them 'Away from me, I never knew you!”
So simply saying you believe in Jesus is not the end of the matter.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 26 2010,04:39) Kar, It would be nice to think that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved.
Fortunately, it's a little harder than that.
One has to also believe in the revelation that he brought from his Father concerning his Father, his Father's Kingdom and events past, present and future concerning redemption from Sin and Life as a spiritual Son of the Father if we repent, change pur ways and walk in the ways of the Father.
If we belueve that Jesus is God, himself, then we also believe that Jesus was not a man, that he did not come in the flesh and die as a perfect sinless man (for is God a Son, devoid of power, tempted by an angel, abused by fleshly nan, and above all, die?)
In addition, if Jesus presented to others in the wrong way, it can lead to wrongful worship of Jesus. In effect, we place Jesys in the same position that Satan wished for himself, to sit on the throne of God from his own works rather than as a reward for his works (Notice that in the 'Lucifer' story, that Satan was a glorious, anointed Cherub who was supreme in his office (What does it mean to be anointed?). He desired Worship from mankind because of his mighty works. 'But surely he deserved it', didn't he?, he worked so hard!, Worship that is strictly for God Almighty alone!)
The truth is that at no time did Jesus claim to be God, nor make any claim anything that he did was by any other means but his Father, God Almighty and the Holy Spirit, which is of the God, God Almighty.
Remember, Jesus also said “Many will come saying 'Lord, we spoke in your name' but I will say to them 'Away from me, I never knew you!”
So simply saying you believe in Jesus is not the end of the matter.
JA……… Well PUT, ..> They are all Idolaters that believe Jesus was or IS a GOD and Not a 100 % Human Being. They have moved Him to very GOD Himself , These False TRINITARIAN AND PREEXISTENCES DOCTRINES do nothing but created another GOD. They have no Fear even when they read 2 Ths 2, they are deluded because they truly do not LOVE the Truth and God has sent to them a Deluding Spirit (intellect) in order for them to (BELIEVE) The LIE , that Jesus is GOD Almighty HIMSELF.peace and love to you and your………………gene
WJ
I will be honest with you. I have little or no respect for your interpretation process. The fact that you continue in your false doctrine tells me clearly that reverence for truth is totally lacking. The fact that you can continue to insult the work of the completely human Christ in what he accomplished baffles me.
You have completely refused to consider the cultural input of the Hebrews in your interpretations because you are already stuck in your doctrine and no amount of proof is going to change your mind.Several months ago I insisted that you acknowledge that the meaning of “spirit” in the NT and OT is breath or wind, yet you refuse to insert that meaning when you use verse containing that term. You refuse because it detracts from the personification you cling to. You cling to the personification of the breath of God into a person of God. That is totally dishonest.
You will now throw up scriptures that seem to personify the Holy Spirit without considering the cultural input of the concrete thought processes of the Hebrew mind. As long as you continue to filter the scripture through your Western thinking process you will miss the full meaning of said scriptures.You insult my heavenly Father by inferring that His unchangeable character can change to a being that is capable of being tempted or is flesh and blood. My hope is that you do not really believe this in your heart but rather spout out intellectual nonsense that you have been taught. If you truly believe this in your heart then you risk not even being of the Judeo-Christian faith.
You continue to make Christ something other then a normal human being born of a woman which means that his resurrection can never be an example for the rest of us humans. You work against the Christ. You teach Anti-Christ.
After years of hearing the truth you continue in your nonsense. I have no respect for you in this particular aspect of your being/character.Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 26 2010,04:39) Kar, It would be nice to think that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved.
Fortunately, it's a little harder than that.
One has to also believe in the revelation that he brought from his Father concerning his Father, his Father's Kingdom and events past, present and future concerning redemption from Sin and Life as a spiritual Son of the Father if we repent, change pur ways and walk in the ways of the Father.
If we belueve that Jesus is God, himself, then we also believe that Jesus was not a man, that he did not come in the flesh and die as a perfect sinless man (for is God a Son, devoid of power, tempted by an angel, abused by fleshly nan, and above all, die?)
In addition, if Jesus presented to others in the wrong way, it can lead to wrongful worship of Jesus. In effect, we place Jesys in the same position that Satan wished for himself, to sit on the throne of God from his own works rather than as a reward for his works (Notice that in the 'Lucifer' story, that Satan was a glorious, anointed Cherub who was supreme in his office (What does it mean to be anointed?). He desired Worship from mankind because of his mighty works. 'But surely he deserved it', didn't he?, he worked so hard!, Worship that is strictly for God Almighty alone!)
The truth is that at no time did Jesus claim to be God, nor make any claim anything that he did was by any other means but his Father, God Almighty and the Holy Spirit, which is of the God, God Almighty.
Remember, Jesus also said “Many will come saying 'Lord, we spoke in your name' but I will say to them 'Away from me, I never knew you!”
So simply saying you believe in Jesus is not the end of the matter.
Paul says all is necessary that a person believes that Christ rose from the dead and that he is the Messiah. Inferred in that statement is the belief that Christ was physically raised as a fully human being. To believe that God raised some hybrid creature denies our ability to use his resurrection as an example for us.
To believe in Jesus “name” carries the same meaning as it did in the Hebrew scriptures. Name meaning character. Believing in the character of Christ means to believe in the human perfected character of the Christ/Messiah. It means believing in the possibility of us attaining that same perfected character in our own lives. A perfect Bride without spot or wrinkle.Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,06:14) WJ, A little while back I asked a question to you (and/or TT) that has not yet been responded to. This is in reference to Micah 5:2:
Does God have a 'Goings Forth'?
JAFrom Everlasting Yes. Do you think he is going backwards?
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,06:14) You say Jesus is God because you say he existed from eternity. But God, himself, calls Jesus 'His Messenger' (Malachi 3:1) and in Isaiah 50:10 He is called 'His Servant', also, Micah 5:4 declares that he will rule 'in the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majesty of the name of the LORD (YHWH) His God…'
How do you reconcile these few (amongst many others verses) with your idea that He, himself, IS God?
No, The scriptures say Jesus is God. But there you go again acting as if the word “God” is exclusive to the Father!The word “God”(Theos) does not identify who God is no more than the word human identifies anyone!
Phil 2:6-8 – John 1:1, 14 explains your dilemma. Trinitarians have no problem accepting all the scriptures including the ones that call Jesus God!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,06:14) Secondly, you declare that Jesus is 'my Lord and my God' and you can say that because it means 'He is this to you', it is not a declaration of universal truth.
So what! It is what the Apostles called Jesus and the majority of Christians today also call him God!while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior“, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Tit 2 :13, 14
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1
That is my confession and it is Biblical!
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, “Mighty God“, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call “his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us“. Matt 1:23
It is the Trinitarians that are fulfilling this scripture for we are the ones calling Jesus, God with us!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,17:19) WJ,
Please show me where it says in the scriptures that God has 'Goings Forth'.
JAI don't have to all I am doing is showing your logic proves nothing about the verse.
Jesus is the “Word” that was with God and was God!
God is an “eternal being” and and as I said even if yoiu interpret it as the “word of God” there has never been a time that God didn't have a word.
Your logic says a word is not a word until it is spoken. Wrong, because wisdom is in words and wisdom has also been with God from everlasting. Can you have words in your mind and heart without speaking them?
Of course you can!
Blessings WJ
WJ,
No, the Scriptures do not say that Jesus is God. That is what you say.
The word 'God' is a title, and is not exclusive to the Father for it can be used in the context of 'All powerful, Great One, one of excessive excellence or achivement' something you seem to deny when applying the title to Jesus: ('thy throne, O God…' this quite clear not meaning The One God, God Almighty, but 'Powerful One')
When it is applied in context of Religion, Deity and Devotion and particularly worship, then the title has only one meaning: 'The God of/known to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob', the God that is ONE, YHWH, who recognises no other GOD, God or god as His equal (Isaiah 46:5: 'To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal and compare Me, that we should be alike?')
Now, I feel you hedging… Where is your response, no spin, answer with the honesty that you would claim to answer to God with, in truth and righteousness.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 26 2010,06:39) Kar, It would be nice to think that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved.
Fortunately, it's a little harder than that.
One has to also believe in the revelation that he brought from his Father concerning his Father, his Father's Kingdom and events past, present and future concerning redemption from Sin and Life as a spiritual Son of the Father if we repent, change pur ways and walk in the ways of the Father.
If we belueve that Jesus is God, himself, then we also believe that Jesus was not a man, that he did not come in the flesh and die as a perfect sinless man (for is God a Son, devoid of power, tempted by an angel, abused by fleshly nan, and above all, die?)
In addition, if Jesus presented to others in the wrong way, it can lead to wrongful worship of Jesus. In effect, we place Jesys in the same position that Satan wished for himself, to sit on the throne of God from his own works rather than as a reward for his works (Notice that in the 'Lucifer' story, that Satan was a glorious, anointed Cherub who was supreme in his office (What does it mean to be anointed?). He desired Worship from mankind because of his mighty works. 'But surely he deserved it', didn't he?, he worked so hard!, Worship that is strictly for God Almighty alone!)
The truth is that at no time did Jesus claim to be God, nor make any claim anything that he did was by any other means but his Father, God Almighty and the Holy Spirit, which is of the God, God Almighty.
Remember, Jesus also said “Many will come saying 'Lord, we spoke in your name' but I will say to them 'Away from me, I never knew you!”
So simply saying you believe in Jesus is not the end of the matter.
I agree and see your point.
As a kid I thought from all everyone had taught me, Jesus was the one and only God.
Thats all I knew , untill I met some JWs!
Its interesting what you say- how Satan would desire worship away from the Father. Thats true.Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,17:48) WJ, No, the Scriptures do not say that Jesus is God.
JALies! I just gave you scriptures that call Jesus God!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,17:48) WJ, No, the Scriptures do not say that Jesus is God. That is what you say.
The word 'God' is a title, and is not exclusive to the Father for it can be used in the context of 'All powerful, Great One, one of excessive excellence or achivement' something you seem to deny when applying the title to Jesus: ('thy throne, O God…' this quite clear not meaning The One God, God Almighty, but 'Powerful One')
When it is applied in context of Religion, Deity and Devotion and particularly worship, then the title has only one meaning: 'The God of/known to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob', the God that is ONE, YHWH, who recognises no other GOD, God or god as His equal (Isaiah 46:5: 'To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal and compare Me, that we should be alike?')
JaDid you get this info out of the Watchtower text books?
My confession is according to scriptures!
Now you have the burden of showing how my confession is not scriptural!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 25 2010,17:48) Now, I feel you hedging… Where is your response, no spin, answer with the honesty that you would claim to answer to God with, in truth and righteousness.
JaI don't need to spin like the Anti-Trinitarians that have to explain away scriptures that prove Jesus is God.
You believe he is “a god” that is called Polytheism! The JWs believe the same.
I am not a Polytheist but a Monotheist that believe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are One, with One name. Matt 28:19
You have a differenct Trinity! Thats all!
WJ
WJ,
Do you know why we err into sinning when dialoging with you. Well, your last response speaks volume…
What you wrote is pure twaddle.
Somehow, we believe we are talking with someone with a healthy mind and respectable reasoning ability.
It is said in one place, something like: '[Too] much learning has dulled the mind'
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