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Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 23 2010,23:55) Kar,
Jesus is in pure Spirit form when in Heaven but acquires a 'recognisable' flesh and blood body when on earth.Because he was born, by the Holy Spirit, into a human body he acquired a human identity by which he proved himself to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.
Now, the scriptures tells us that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, what then happened to Jesus' body when he ascended to Heaven?
Well, to my mind, there is no mystery… Even Angels illegally created flesh and blood bodies and invigorated them by filling them with their spirits. When God killed them off in the great flood, they de-materialised thier corrupt bodies and returned to [a lower Heaven] awaiting the judgement day.
So would it be amazing that Jesus could, legally, materialises his body on earth and de-materialises it when ascending to Heaven?
Yeah, I understand that JA, it just gets so confusing on forums like this with so many opinions! You know, reading one thread then another:) lol.It is no mystery to me either. Many people for exampe have had near death experiences. They have felt things. I experenced something myself once, I have no trouble understanding it.
Kar,
The confusion that you feel, sorry to say, comes from trying to believe the most believable post.
Here is psychology at work.It is both good and bad. Good, because it says you are open to new ideas and suggestions. Bad, because you are influenced by new ideas and suggestions.
This is what Jesus refered to in one of the Churchs in Revelation: 'The Lukewarm Church', 'oh I wish you were either Hot or Cold… Lukewarm is bitter…'
Kar, don't be upset by this. It just means that you need to make up your mind exactly what you believe and stick to it and deny the other (God is does not admire 'fence walkers').
If you believe what you believe is the Truth, but it turns out not to be the Truth, then you are blameless.
But, if you recognise the Truth, stick to it and you are saved.
However, if, once knowing the 'true' Truth, you fall away from it, you are no longer innocent in your ignorance and have made yourself into an opposer, a satan.
As for near-death experience. This is couched in the 'desire' to believe what one wants to believe.
At the point of death, biologically, the body starts to close down its sensuary agencies.
One loses feeling, so to the mind the body is floating. Taste and Smell senses may increase temporarily as more brain power is now avaliable. Hearing may become acute for the same reason but eventually they start to diminish and the brain struggles to retain sensory input.
It is at this point that 'delusion' sets in. The person 'imagines' that they are smelling, tasting, hearing things that they worried about in full, or 'secret' life abd that they are floating out of, and abive, their body, or even the room (I must have 'nearly died' because it has happened to me, too).The last sense to go is Vision because this has the greatest amount of processing given to it. As the vision senses close down light of any kind is reduced and shapes and figures are blurred to simple 'blob' or 'tunnel' of light, again, because the vusion senses are struggling to find sensory input.
Finally, the brain itself closes down and the heart stops it's automatic rhythm and the spirit is said to have left the body.
In a Coma situation, the spirit never leaves the body (witness what Jesus says about some that he raised, 'she is not dead for the life is still in her…' but to the onlookers the girl looked dead, so finally, Jesus just gives in and says '[ok, to you] she is dead').
This is how people then repeat things they heard in their presence after they come out of the coma. Vision, hearing and very limited amounts of other senses are still retained.The point of all this, is not to attribute the occasion to any 'Spiritual' encounterment and enlightenment. It is purely a physiobiological phenomena.
Don't open the door to Spiritism…!!
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 22 2010,20:55) oh, and Jack, where did I say that Jesus was created? I said by way of speculation that the scriptures says “He [the Word] was with 'IN THE BEGINNING', it doesn't say 'FROM EVERLASTING'”
JaIt doesn't have to because John 1:1c also says “AND THE WORD WAS GOD“! Or Literally “GOD WAS THE WORD.
Even if 'Theos' in John 1:1c is qualitative it would still mean all that God was the “Word” was!
God is from everlasting! God is an “eternal being”, and Jesus is the “eternal life” that was with the Father… 1 John 1:1-3
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting“. Micah 5:2
This is another one of those nagging scriptures against the Unitarians and the anti-preexistant followers.
Click here for more info on John 1:1.
Blessings WJ
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Even if 'Theos' in John 1:1c is qualitative it would still mean all that God was the “Word” was!
Keith,You are absolutely correct. The NEB says, “And the Word was what God was.”
This means that the Word was God qualitatively. JA only helps us in his admission of this.
thinker
JA,
We can get distracted by what others say, example we can learn so much on our own, then join a Church even read a religeous book pushing ideas, and after some time, all we have learnt can go to other things and ideas. What we truely believe is still there though. It just takes a while to remember.
What happened to me wasnt a near death experience it was something else. I was fine at the time. All I know from it is that our Heavenly Father is beyond words which could describe. Love, safety, kind, caring, could be some words:)
Ah, the dynamic duo are back…!
WJ, I'm not sure where you are going with you chafing. Jack has already tried to have a go and I can't see the “Why For”?
I have not said that Jesus was NOT pre-existent, in fact, I am saying that he IS!! I have no problem declaring that.
I think you confusing the discussion with whether Jesus was CREATED.
All the same…
WJ, I see you have chosen the translation of Micah 5:2 that uses the phrase “Goings forth” instead of the one that translates “Origin”. Taking it that they [should] both mean, more or less, the same thing, I will use “Origin”.What does “Origin” mean?
Does God have an “Origin”
Does a God have an “Origin”
Ok, substitute “Goings Forth” if you like.
Is God ever said to have “Goings Forth”?
Why not?
Who is [the Perfect Servant whose Origin is from ancient times] carrying out the Word of God: Going Forth executing the Words of God?
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 24 2010,09:21) Ah, the dynamic duo are back…! WJ, I'm not sure where you are going with you chafing. Jack has already tried to have a go and I can't see the “Why For”?
I have not said that Jesus was NOT pre-existent, in fact, I am saying that he IS!! I have no problem declaring that.
I think you confusing the discussion with whether Jesus was CREATED.
All the same…
WJ, I see you have chosen the translation of Micah 5:2 that uses the phrase “Goings forth” instead of the one that translates “Origin”. Taking it that they [should] both mean, more or less, the same thing, I will use “Origin”.What does “Origin” mean?
Does God have an “Origin”
Does a God have an “Origin”
Ok, substitute “Goings Forth” if you like.
Is God ever said to have “Goings Forth”?
Why not?
Who is [the Perfect Servant whose Origin is from ancient times] carrying out the Word of God: Going Forth executing the Words of God?
JA,I did not say that you said that Jesus was not pre-existent. I was not trying to have a go at it. I was agreeing with you on the word “begotten.” Read with comprehension for once. You still act like a wise guy I see. Or you drink a six pack before posting.
I would not have a go with you because it would be like playing chess with someone way below my level. I would just get bored.
thinker
TT,
Ok, I admit that I missed or forgot your 'agreeing' bit.
I don't understand what you and WJ mean by saying “What God was the Word was”? Just seem like playing with words.
God speaks a word, it is HIS Word, of course it is HIM. What He speaks is What He IS – He IS [as] His Word.
I think you are both so used to disagreeing that you must find something to disagree with with what others have posted even if the poster is saying the same as what you are (Don't sling it back to me – I just missed that you agreed in an earlier post – I mainly write from my Mobile and it's only got a tiny window (that's why you often see so many grammatical/spelling mistakes) reviewing post that is not in the immediate window is off limits).
Ok, so we agree that Jesus was begotten after coming to earth and that He was Pre-Existent – So the Topic here is a given a big 'Tick' for “Yes, He was” from you WJ and Me and some others.
However, since WJ has snuck in an additional aspect, perhaps you or he (or both) can complete a response to the questions that I outlined in my previous post regarding Micah 5:2.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 24 2010,10:33) TT, Ok, I admit that I missed or forgot your 'agreeing' bit.
I don't understand what you and WJ mean by saying “What God was the Word was”? Just seem like playing with words.
God speaks a word, it is HIS Word, of course it is HIM. What He speaks is What He IS – He IS [as] His Word.
I think you are both so used to disagreeing that you must find something to disagree with with what others have posted even if the poster is saying the same as what you are (Don't sling it back to me – I just missed that you agreed in an earlier post – I mainly write from my Mobile and it's only got a tiny window (that's why you often see so many grammatical/spelling mistakes) reviewing post that is not in the immediate window is off limits).
Ok, so we agree that Jesus was begotten after coming to earth and that He was Pre-Existent – So the Topic here is a given a big 'Tick' for “Yes, He was” from you WJ and Me and some others.
However, since WJ has snuck in an additional aspect, perhaps you or he (or both) can complete a response to the questions that I outlined in my previous post regarding Micah 5:2.
We're cool! I like you for some reason and I want us to be cool.thinker
TT,
Ok, I will try… but you have seen my posts – it's not one of my strong points.
Now, as for Micah 5:2…
Dear Karmarie,
There are a number of reasons why I think (know) that the Jesus, who existed before He was born as Jesus, is a false Jesus.
First of all the Word of God tells us that what can be known about God is plain (is not a mystery) because God has shown it to us. How? “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.” So that we are without excuse! (Rom. 1:19-20). There is nothing in the created order, man or animal that existed before being born. The idea of existence before birth is a Roman Catholic Trinitarian mystery doctrine which claims that the second person of the trinity (Jesus) existed from all eternity. Jesus is our example in all things. He could not be our example if He [contrary to nature] would have existed before He was born.
Secondly, the ONE God who existed from the beginning and throughout O.T. time (Gen 1:1; John 1:1), first of all chose for Himself a wife when He married Israel at Mt Sinai (Ex 19). Then in the “fullness of time” (Gal 4:4) God chose the Virgin Marie, an Israelite woman (representing all of Israel); to give birth to His firstborn Son whom He named Jesus (Matt. 1:18-25).
Thirdly, in regards to 1 Cor.15:46.
Verses 39-44 only draw a comparison between the physical and the spiritual.Then in verse 45 it tells us that the last Adam (Jesus) BECAME a life-giving spirit. Notice, it says He BECAME a life-giving spirit, not WAS a live-giving spirit. Jesus BECAME a life-giving spirit through His life, death and resurrection.
Verse 46 then explains that first is the physical and then the spiritual, and not the other way around.
Verse 47 tells us that the first man (Adam) was of the earth, in contrast to the second man (Jesus) who is the Lord from heaven. Jesus is from heaven because He was begotten at conception by God, when the WORD of God BECAME the SON of God (John 1:14).
Verses 48-50 tell us that Jesus is our example and we need to become and be what He is. Jesus was born 2000 years ago, BEGOTTEN of God and BORN of woman. He lived, suffered, died and was resurrected (born again), making Him the first born Son of God. You and I must also become BEGOTTEN (converted) of God and BORN AGAIN of God, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.
Please consider additional explanations at: http://www.logoslogic.info
TT and WJ and LOgosl
with all respect given to all of you i have to say ,your explanation on the same things over and over based on 3or 4 verses in scriptures ,when hundred of scriptures says otherwise ,and clear understanding make it also clear ,
it is true you are not defending the truth of the word of God,but create a challenge within the scriptures it selves, the purpose is for what ??
Hi Kar,
So, now you have a test of your faith.
You accepted that which I wrote but now Logic has written something not unlike a contrary version.
Which are you going to accept and which reject?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2010,22:57) TT and WJ and LOgosl with all respect given to all of you i have to say ,your explanation on the same things over and over based on 3or 4 verses in scriptures ,when hundred of scriptures says otherwise ,and clear understanding make it also clear ,
it is true you are not defending the truth of the word of God,but create a challenge within the scriptures it selves, the purpose is for what ??
TThe purpose is for the many who are listening who may never post on this sight to hear the truth!
Blessings WJ
Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,20:58) Dear Karmarie, There are a number of reasons why I think (know) that the Jesus, who existed before He was born as Jesus, is a false Jesus.
First of all the Word of God tells us that what can be known about God is plain (is not a mystery) because God has shown it to us. How? “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.” So that we are without excuse! (Rom. 1:19-20). There is nothing in the created order, man or animal that existed before being born. The idea of existence before birth is a Roman Catholic Trinitarian mystery doctrine which claims that the second person of the trinity (Jesus) existed from all eternity. Jesus is our example in all things. He could not be our example if He [contrary to nature] would have existed before He was born.
Secondly, the ONE God who existed from the beginning and throughout O.T. time (Gen 1:1; John 1:1), first of all chose for Himself a wife when He married Israel at Mt Sinai (Ex 19). Then in the “fullness of time” (Gal 4:4) God chose the Virgin Marie, an Israelite woman (representing all of Israel); to give birth to His firstborn Son whom He named Jesus (Matt. 1:18-25).
Thirdly, in regards to 1 Cor.15:46.
Verses 39-44 only draw a comparison between the physical and the spiritual.Then in verse 45 it tells us that the last Adam (Jesus) BECAME a life-giving spirit. Notice, it says He BECAME a life-giving spirit, not WAS a live-giving spirit. Jesus BECAME a life-giving spirit through His life, death and resurrection.
Verse 46 then explains that first is the physical and then the spiritual, and not the other way around.
Verse 47 tells us that the first man (Adam) was of the earth, in contrast to the second man (Jesus) who is the Lord from heaven. Jesus is from heaven because He was begotten at conception by God, when the WORD of God BECAME the SON of God (John 1:14).
Verses 48-50 tell us that Jesus is our example and we need to become and be what He is. Jesus was born 2000 years ago, BEGOTTEN of God and BORN of woman. He lived, suffered, died and was resurrected (born again), making Him the first born Son of God. You and I must also become BEGOTTEN (converted) of God and BORN AGAIN of God, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.
Please consider additional explanations at: http://www.logoslogic.info
LogicFirst of all if you think that our finite logic can fully explain the infinite nature of God, you are mistaken.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
It takes the Spirit of God to reveal the “Mysteries” of God and not carnal human logic which is flawed!
Your explanation of Jesus preexistence denies Jesus very own words.
The Greek text does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
Everyone here keeps ignoring this point, so maybe you can explain, Jesus said…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down (katabainō) from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Notice nowhere does our Lord in John 6 indicate he is just the plan of the Father that came down from heaven. If it is possible for that to be conveyed in the Text the Translators could have made it so, but there is not a Bible in the world that says such.
So if you cannot agree to its reading without inference then you look into the Greek to see why it is translated that way and in this case the tenses show that Jesus is the one doing the “descending” (katabainō) just as the Holy Spirit and the Angel did. Matt 3:16 and Matt 28:2
The Greek for “I have come down” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
SO WHEN JESUS SAID “I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” THE GREEK TENSE SAYS HE IS DOING THE ACTION, THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE INTERPRETED “A THOUGHT OR A PLAN CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” BECAUSE THOUGHTS AND PLANS DO NOT PERFORM AN ACTION ON THEIR OWN!
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3
WHO IS THE **WORD OF LIFE** THAT WAS WITH THE FATHER?
In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God”, and the Word was God. “THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD“. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. “IN HIM WAS LIFE AND THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. John 1:1
The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
The scriptures say that Jesus came down from heaven and he was not of this world!
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23
AT Robertson states…
I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31
This is only a few examples where the preexistence of Christ is taught!
More on this here.
Blessings WJ
Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,20:58) Then in verse 45 it tells us that the last Adam (Jesus) BECAME a life-giving spirit. Notice, it says He BECAME a life-giving spirit, not WAS a live-giving spirit. Jesus BECAME a life-giving spirit through His life, death and resurrection.
LogicThe word “Made” is not in the Greek text. Jesus was the “Eternal life”, the “Word of life” that was with the Father in the beginning. John 1:1 – 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus has always been the way, truth and the life. John 14:6 John 1:3
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2010,03:19) Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,20:58) Then in verse 45 it tells us that the last Adam (Jesus) BECAME a life-giving spirit. Notice, it says He BECAME a life-giving spirit, not WAS a live-giving spirit. Jesus BECAME a life-giving spirit through His life, death and resurrection.
LogicThe word “Made” is not in the Greek text. Jesus was the “Eternal life”, the “Word of life” that was with the Father in the beginning. John 1:1 – 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus has always been the way, truth and the life. John 14:6 John 1:3
Blessings WJ
WJthe word of live ” are the scriptures.
WJ……….What Scripture specifically Say's Jesus (WAS) and (IS) the WORD of LIFE, WE all KNOW He Spoke the (FATHERS) WORDS TO US. But where does it (SPECIFICALLY) say THE words he spoke were (HIS) WORDS OF LIFE? Trying to force the text in Jhon 1:1 to make it come out the way is against what Jesus Himself Said, THE WORD I AM TELLING YOU ARE NOT MY WORD, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT ME is what He said. You are disagreeing with Jesus himself right? If not Please explain this.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
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