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Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,23:25) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,09:19) The Word BECAME Jesus, thats how I see it as.
What does that mean? I believe it means that God created Jesus just as he created the heavens and the earth. I am not sure what others believe.
Hi Kerwin:It means that the prophetic Word regarding Jesus became a reality. What else can it mean. We know that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
Beginning with Genesis after the fall of man, there are many prophecies relative to the his coming into the world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote Yes, the spirit of the Son existed in the heart of the Father, but he did not exist as a sentient person. The soul of the Son did not exist until he was born of virgin Mary. Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
so if He existed in the Heart of God, (do you mean as an idea or actual being?) and who do you say is the Holy Spirit?JustAskin said:
Quote He is the [ONLY] “Begotten” Son of God – anointed with the Holy Spirit meaning He is appointed as future (now Present) [Heavenly] King over man
JA,We agree for once. Christ's being “begotten” has nothing to do with His coming into being. It means that He was “anointed” and “appointed” as King.
I know you believe Jesus was created which is surely “anathema!” But at least we agree that “begotten” does not mean that He was created.
thinker
Kar, Terra,
Thanks you for the feedback and support.There is so much more I could write but I fear that I burden others and leave too little for others to input.
Yet there is so much more to discuss and understand that are related but not directly are a little away off the line of this explicit discussion topic.
Four things I missed out from my 'précis'…
1) The anointment of Christ by the Holy Spirit linked to the anointment of David by the Holy oil of the Prophet Samuel
2) The point of Jesus becoming the “Begotten” Son of God (There is an on-going debate concerning this – maybe it's the finer details but it all seems clear to me!)
3) Further 'proof text' of Pre-existence: Gene brought it out; two verses wherein Jesus makes reference to his life along side his father before the creation of the world.
a) John 6:62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to [heaven] where He was before?”
b) John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”4) Jesus permanent appointment as High Priest in the Temple of God (Sacrifice and Worship to God was carried out through the High Priest)
Jesus Christ himself is the permanent 'Acceptable Sacrifice' forever and Through him (Not 'To Him' but 'Through Him') we worship the father, God Almighty.========================================
God wisely hid his Servant [Jesus] to protect his creation [mankind] from wrongfully ascribing worship to that Heavenly being [Jesus] as a God.
All around the Hebrews/Jews were pagans worshipping multiple Gods in their 'heaven', their Olympus, their Valhalla, etc. How, then does God say “I am ONE, beside(s) me there is no other God”, if then speaks of another Divine being.
(Note, At No Time do the Hebrews/Jews believe that the Holy Spirit is [a] God – like Trinitarians believe today!!)While on Earth, Jesus ascribes ALL THE POWER AND AUTHORITY that he exercises to his Father and at no time entertains any notion of usurping the the position of His God and Father – He exercises his office of state with perfection.
If Jesus were God Almighty Himself, come to earth, or a Co-equal partner in a GodHead, why would he be Hidden from the beginning, when the other [two] are exposed? How is it then said in Philippians 2:9: “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name…” If he was already God, how has this gained him anything? (If he were God, how could he have died in the first place!?!)
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 23 2010,10:10) Quote Yes, the spirit of the Son existed in the heart of the Father, but he did not exist as a sentient person. The soul of the Son did not exist until he was born of virgin Mary. Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
so if He existed in the Heart of God, (do you mean as an idea or actual being?) and who do you say is the Holy Spirit?
Hi K:Not as an actual being, that is what is meant that he did not exist as a sentient person. A person is a living soul who has a mind, a will and emotions. The spirit is formed through obedience to what that person obeys. Jesus was not a living soul until he was born into this world.
God had a plan in the beginning and that plan was to make man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul. The last man, Jesus, was made a life giving spirit. He was born into this world a living soul, and his spirit was formed by obedience to the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
Quote 1 Co. 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyTT, and all.
I have seen your debate with Mikeboll64 and I'm surprised that there is such a long debate at all surrounding such a scripturally obvious theme.
I was going to open a Topic about FRACTAL Scripture themes: Repeated Themes … actually, more of a Listing, and then debating their links.
e.g.
– Abraham sacrificing his “Begotten Son” : God sacrificing his “Begotten Son”
– David's throne lasting Forever : Jesus Christ's throne lasting forever
– Melchizedek being a Priest forever : Jesus Christ being a Priest forever
– 'Lucifer' (Yes, yes, I know…) walking amongst the stones of fire: Judas Escariot walking amongst the disciples of Christ
– 'Lucifer' (Yes, him again, and “yes, yes, I know” again) being 'The Anointed Cherub' covered in precious jewels who Sinned and fell from grace: Saul, a young man, tall and handsome, anointed with Holy oil, who sinned and fell from grace
– God's perfect heirachical organisation: mankinds imperfect heirachial organisation..etc.. add more
oh, and Jack, where did I say that Jesus was created? I said by way of speculation that the scriptures says “He [the Word] was with 'IN THE BEGINNING', it doesn't say 'FROM EVERLASTING'”
There is nothing in the scriptures so far revealed by which anyone can make that claim – speculate, yes, but not claim as fact by scripture – equally, there is no proof counter claim that He wasn't…
I'm not expanding the debate to “created/not created” – this Topic is simply about whether he was 'Pre-Existent' and there is sufficient evidence to say “Yes, He was” in my mind.
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 23 2010,11:37) JustAskin said: Quote He is the [ONLY] “Begotten” Son of God – anointed with the Holy Spirit meaning He is appointed as future (now Present) [Heavenly] King over man
JA,We agree for once. Christ's being “begotten” has nothing to do with His coming into being. It means that He was “anointed” and “appointed” as King.
I know you believe Jesus was created which is surely “anathema!” But at least we agree that “begotten” does not mean that He was created.
thinker
TT
i am surprised you still there and not accepting Gods word.at the least you accept yours,
you do not believe in scriptures because you break the scriptures to justify your thinking,this is not the truth of the word of God.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 22 2010,22:27) Kar, and all, The Scriptures says that 'the word' was in the beginning…with god'.
Everyday common sense says that 'that which is with another cannot itself be that other'.
Is it not also everyday common sense that the Son must come 'After' the Father and therefore cannot have been 'From Everlasting' like the Father.
Isaiah 49 speaks of God's Servant that He has 'hidden in the palm of His hand…'(vs 2).
God call [Jesus] His 'Servant' (Is 42:1, 49:3). [Jesus, himself] tells us: (Is 48: 16): '…From the time that it was, I was there and now the Lord God and His Spirit [has] sent me'
God did not reveal 'His Servant' THROUGH whom he created the Heavens and the earth and all things within – but man only became a living soul when God 'breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life'(that is, the Spirit of man), because He knew that the Hebrews/Jews would call his Servant 'a God' and worship him, too.
Jesus, when on earth, tells him disciples:'I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father'(John 16:28)
Again, Jesus says:And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.'(John 17:3)
All of John 16 and 17 are a testification from Jesus of His relationship with God, His Father and His own 'Servant' status.
As a result of Jesus' perfect servitude He was glorified and 'raised' to a superior position to that which he departed'.
If, Jesus was not preExistent, what previous position could He then have been raised above?
And to what glory could He have had with His Father that He refers to in 'Now glorify me with the glory I HAD with you…'
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. And in verse 14 that Word became flesh. His earthly Name that was given Him is Jesus. Compare now with
Rev. 19:13 after His resurrection, because the Book of Rev. was written after Jesus went back to Heaven.
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and thigh a name was written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
We all know that it is Jesus who went back to heaven and will come again as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.Lets go back and see how He was the firstborn of all creation
Col. 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church,who is the beginning from the dead, THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.
Rev. 3:14
…….”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”Now I will show you what Jesus Himself said. When ever Scriptures are in red, it is Jesus talking.
John 3:17 “For God did not send his son into the world…..
John 6:38 “For I have not come DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do My will, but to do the will of HIM WHO SEND ME.
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me …..
verse 40 And this s the will of Him who send Me…..John 8 :58 Jesus said to them:” Assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham, I am.”
This us what John said about Jesus
John 1:15John bore witness of Him and cried out saying:” This was He of whom I said,”He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.In Philippians 2 :6 who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery, to be equal with God.
verse 8 but made Himself of no reputation, but took on the form of a servant, and coming in likeness of men.Yet, so many just want to make Jesus a mere man, which He was not. It was His choice to do what He did. He did it because first He loves His Father and second He loves mankind and wants no one to be lost.
I even missed John 1:58, but I think anyone should get the picture with all these Scriptures, but will you and others who read this?
IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 23 2010,13:31) Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 22 2010,22:27) Kar, and all, The Scriptures says that 'the word' was in the beginning…with god'.
Everyday common sense says that 'that which is with another cannot itself be that other'.
Is it not also everyday common sense that the Son must come 'After' the Father and therefore cannot have been 'From Everlasting' like the Father.
Isaiah 49 speaks of God's Servant that He has 'hidden in the palm of His hand…'(vs 2).
God call [Jesus] His 'Servant' (Is 42:1, 49:3). [Jesus, himself] tells us: (Is 48: 16): '…From the time that it was, I was there and now the Lord God and His Spirit [has] sent me'
God did not reveal 'His Servant' THROUGH whom he created the Heavens and the earth and all things within – but man only became a living soul when God 'breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life'(that is, the Spirit of man), because He knew that the Hebrews/Jews would call his Servant 'a God' and worship him, too.
Jesus, when on earth, tells him disciples:'I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father'(John 16:28)
Again, Jesus says:And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.'(John 17:3)
All of John 16 and 17 are a testification from Jesus of His relationship with God, His Father and His own 'Servant' status.
As a result of Jesus' perfect servitude He was glorified and 'raised' to a superior position to that which he departed'.
If, Jesus was not preExistent, what previous position could He then have been raised above?
And to what glory could He have had with His Father that He refers to in 'Now glorify me with the glory I HAD with you…'
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. And in verse 14 that Word became flesh. His earthly Name that was given Him is Jesus. Compare now with
Rev. 19:13 after His resurrection, because the Book of Rev. was written after Jesus went back to Heaven.
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and thigh a name was written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
We all know that it is Jesus who went back to heaven and will come again as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.Lets go back and see how He was the firstborn of all creation
Col. 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church,who is the beginning from the dead, THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.
Rev. 3:14
…….”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”Now I will show you what Jesus Himself said. When ever Scriptures are in red, it is Jesus talking.
John 3:17 “For God did not send his son into the world…..
John 6:38 “For I have not come DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do My will, but to do the will of HIM WHO SEND ME.
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me …..
verse 40 And this s the will of Him who send Me…..John 8 :58 Jesus said to them:” Assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham, I am.”
This us what John said about Jesus
John 1:15John bore witness of Him and cried out saying:” This was He of whom I said,”He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.In Philippians 2 :6 who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery, to be equal with God.
verse 8 but made Himself of no reputation, but took on the form of a servant, and coming in likeness of men.Yet, so many just want to make Jesus a mere man, which He was not. It was His choice to do what He did. He did it because first He loves His Father and second He loves mankind and wants no one to be lost.
I even missed John 1:58, but I think anyone should get the picture with all these Scriptures, but will you and others who read this?
Irene
Ireneit seems some are tired of the truth has teach by the apostles,so they have to invente and twist scriptures,but to them who do not believe in the truth as it spells out, any thing will do,they want fame and the world spirit
1 Cor. 15:46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.”
The Jesus who was first spiritual (pre-existed), then physical and then spiritual again, is a false Jesus!
Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,15:54) 1 Cor. 15:46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” The Jesus who was first spiritual (pre-existed), then physical and then spiritual again, is a false Jesus!
LOdo you think we do not know scriptures ??
you think we are like you ?
twisting and only show partial verses?NO WE LIKE THE TRUTH AND SHOW IT LIKE IT IS;
1Co 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.YOU SEE IT TALKS ABOUT ADAM AND JESUS ,BUT NOT IN THE WAY YOU WOULD EXPLAIN IT.
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 23 2010,04:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,23:25) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,09:19) The Word BECAME Jesus, thats how I see it as.
What does that mean? I believe it means that God created Jesus just as he created the heavens and the earth. I am not sure what others believe.
Hi Kerwin:It means that the prophetic Word regarding Jesus became a reality. What else can it mean. We know that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
Beginning with Genesis after the fall of man, there are many prophecies relative to the his coming into the world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I thank you and karmarie for experessing your viewpoint. May God show us all the truth and may we believe them all.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2010,19:27)
I thank you and karmarie for experessing your viewpoint. May God show us all the truth and may we believe them all.
Your welcome Kerwin. I agree.Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,17:54) 1 Cor. 15:46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” The Jesus who was first spiritual (pre-existed), then physical and then spiritual again, is a false Jesus!
Hi logoslogicA Jesus who pre-existed (spiritual) then physical then spiritual again is a false Jesus? Why do you think that?
The verse you quoted should be looked at in its full context. Here it is; (looking forward to your opinion)
..39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2010,21:30) Karmire………..A Spirit according to Jesus does Not Have a BODY.
Hi I know that. So how come most Christians today say Jesus has a body? And will return that way? I dont get that? It goes against those verses.Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,15:54) 1 Cor. 15:46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” The Jesus who was first spiritual (pre-existed), then physical and then spiritual again, is a false Jesus!
Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
Pretty clear.Jesus who had glory with God before the world began, and existed in the form of God came down from heaven and emptied himself and partook of flesh, and was found as a man. He was then humbled himself to even the point of death and was raised into glory at the right hand of the Majesty on High. From this experience Jesus secured our salvation and he even learned obedience in the process.
Everything I have said is a direct quote from scripture, so if you have a problem with it, please take it up with God. I am only repeating that which is written.
The physical comes first because Jesus came in the flesh after existing in the form of God. So his life as a man kind of mirrors our life. He became one of us, so that we could become like him.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2010,15:03) Quote (logoslogic @ Mar. 23 2010,15:54) 1 Cor. 15:46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” The Jesus who was first spiritual (pre-existed), then physical and then spiritual again, is a false Jesus!
Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
Pretty clear.Jesus who had glory with God before the world began, and existed in the form of God came down from heaven and emptied himself and partook of flesh, and was found as a man. He was then humbled himself to even the point of death and was raised into glory at the right hand of the Majesty on High. From this experience Jesus secured our salvation and he even learned obedience in the process.
Everything I have said is a direct quote from scripture, so if you have a problem with it, please take it up with God. I am only repeating that which is written.
The physical comes first because Jesus came in the flesh after existing in the form of God. So his life as a man kind of mirrors our life. He became one of us, so that we could become like him.
Matthew 1:1(NIV) reads:Quote A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
I wonder which Jesus you speak of because the Anointed One is Jesus son of David the son of Abraham and thus a decendandant of both David and Abraham.
Decendant is one who comes afterwards.
In other words what you state is clear is not obviously clear on further examination of scirpture. At this point you are placed in the position of developing an explanation that resolves the aparent disagreement among scriptures. I have not heard your explanation or what scriptures you use to support it and whether that explanation is being both valid and sound.
My explanation is Jesus did not preexist his birth but instead he is the firstborn of a new creation. A creation that Abraham also became part of when he was made perfect along with those believers that are being made perfect in the new creation, Revelations 1:5, Colossians 1:18, and Hebrews 11:40
Kar,
Jesus is in pure Spirit form when in Heaven but acquires a 'recognisable' flesh and blood body when on earth.Because he was born, by the Holy Spirit, into a human body he acquired a human identity by which he proved himself to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.
Now, the scriptures tells us that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, what then happened to Jesus' body when he ascended to Heaven?
Well, to my mind, there is no mystery… Even Angels illegally created flesh and blood bodies and invigorated them by filling them with their spirits. When God killed them off in the great flood, they de-materialised thier corrupt bodies and returned to [a lower Heaven] awaiting the judgement day.
So would it be amazing that Jesus could, legally, materialises his body on earth and de-materialises it when ascending to Heaven?
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