Preexistence

[karmarie]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 21 2010,18:22)

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,14:18) Hi Ed Quote “Scripture” does NOT say anywhere “The Word”(HolySpirit) is Jesus? The Word Became Flesh In the beginning was the Word… He was with God in the beginning. (John 1)… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.(John 14) Quote “The Word” is the “HolySpirit” and “Scripture” is consistent in this idea! I will provide many verses that establish this “Bible Truth” if you want me to PROVE this to you! ok. Yes please. Hi Karmarie, Deut.6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: YHVH GOD is One! “FATHER:The Word” known in us believers of “HolySpirit“! Luke 8:5…11 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: “The seed” is “the word“ of God. Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word(TheSeed “IS” HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. Luke 8:11: Now the parable is this: ;The Seed is The Word of God. Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart,                having heard The Word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Rom.9:8 …children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: (“Jesus“=74 AND “Fruit“=74)                 but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted for The Seed. John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die,                  it abides alone: but if [Jesus=74] dies, [He] will bring forth much “fruit”=74!              “The Seed” is “The Word”! (Luke 8:11)       John 14:24 He that loveth me (Jesus) not keepeth not my (Jesus) sayings: and                  The Word which ye hear is not mine, but The Father's which sent me. Acts 19:20 So mightily grew The Word of God and prevailed. Acts 12:24 The Word of God grew and multiplied. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org PS. Would you like me to explain John 1:14 to you?

Thanks Ed, I like the way you use yellow by the way:)

[karmarie]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2010,18:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2010,13:36) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,11:57) T, youve read the Bible 40 times? I read it once beginning to end but missed out some, otherwise I began with reading it “here a little there a little” I prefer it like that. It is to gain accurate knowledge, but I think theres more to life than just knowledge, as we should become like children, we also have eyes to see and ears to hear, (of the heart) and God speaks to us in many different ways. Kar if you only read the bible here and there you will only obtain here and there knowledge ,if thats enough for you your reward may be the same way,blessings here and there a bits and pieces,think about it , full knowledge will bring you full blessing, of cause you have to apply your knowledge and aquired wisdom that God give you. this is a combination what can not be separeted. Kar you should read the scriptures from the begining and pay attention to all things, because if it would not have been important it would not have been reccorded. you can learn who is God,Christ and man so to understand what going on in Gods world ,and you would better understand the whys and the hows,whens,whats,wheres,this is important so no one can drift you away from Gods way, we all stand alone in our faith, i can bring you to the water but you have to drink it.

T, do you know how long it would take me to read the bible from beginning to end? Once was enough I think for the moment anyway. I actually have a really short attention span (I think?) which is probably why I read it in bits and pieces. But I will be reading some of the New Testament from beginning to end again , in the next few weeks.

Many people know the bible off by heart, yet are still confused. Have you noticed that?

[kerwin]

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,09:19)

The Word BECAME Jesus, thats how I see it as.

What does that mean? I believe it means that God created Jesus just as he created the heavens and the earth. I am not sure what others believe.

[terraricca]

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,21:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2010,18:26) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2010,13:36) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,11:57) T, youve read the Bible 40 times? I read it once beginning to end but missed out some, otherwise I began with reading it “here a little there a little” I prefer it like that. It is to gain accurate knowledge, but I think theres more to life than just knowledge, as we should become like children, we also have eyes to see and ears to hear, (of the heart) and God speaks to us in many different ways. Kar if you only read the bible here and there you will only obtain here and there knowledge ,if thats enough for you your reward may be the same way,blessings here and there a bits and pieces,think about it , full knowledge will bring you full blessing, of cause you have to apply your knowledge and aquired wisdom that God give you. this is a combination what can not be separeted. Kar you should read the scriptures from the begining and pay attention to all things, because if it would not have been important it would not have been reccorded. you can learn who is God,Christ and man so to understand what going on in Gods world ,and you would better understand the whys and the hows,whens,whats,wheres,this is important so no one can drift you away from Gods way, we all stand alone in our faith, i can bring you to the water but you have to drink it. T, do you know how long it would take me to read the bible from beginning to end? Once was enough I think for the moment anyway. I actually have a really short attention span (I think?) which is probably why I read it in bits and pieces. But I will be reading some of the New Testament from beginning to end again , in the next few weeks. Many people know the bible off by heart, yet are still confused. Have you noticed that?

Kar

we all can improve on the attention span,you probably have notice in yourself that wen there is something that catch your attention you can focus on it for hours,(movie,outside event ect;)what is good for one thing is also good for the other,it is our hearth and likes.

but try to read the Psalms and Isaiah,and the NT.do not read it fast just make sure you understand what it says and what it does not says,do not assume anything.

and keep the your knowledge in your hearth.you may find out why it is called the living word.

[JustAskin]

To all,

What does it mean that the Word was 'In the Beginning'?

Does it matter that Satan was a liar 'from the Beginning', although he was not a liar from his creation but from when Sin entered him?

God cannot change. If Jesus (to be) can change to a flesh and Blood man, then He cannot be [a] God, but he were [only] Divine (meaning a Heavenly Spiritual Creature), then He could change his form and nature. After all, some rebellious angels are said to have changed their form and nature, became man (super-men, giants) to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh.

Their flesh became corrupt and tated death but their spirit remain in Sheol, until judgement day, when they will be destroyed.

[karmarie]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2010,01:25)

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 21 2010,09:19) The Word BECAME Jesus, thats how I see it as. What does that mean?  I believe it means that God created Jesus just as he created the heavens and the earth.  I am not sure what others believe.

Hi Kerwin,

Everyone does have different ideas:)

I believe Jesus was not known as Jesus before coming to Earth but was known as The Word, a Spirit being the Son of God, but God sent Him into the world, as a Spirit being He entered into a fleshly body, which was known as Jesus His earthly name, and when he died, although His earthly body dies, His spirit (Who He really was/ The word/ Son of God) returned back to God to where He was before.

(John 1)

[karmarie]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 22 2010,04:28)

Kar if you only read the bible here and there you will only obtain here and there knowledge ,if thats enough for you your reward may be the same way,blessings here and there a bits and pieces,think about it , full knowledge will bring you full blessing, of cause you have to apply your knowledge and aquired wisdom that God give you. this is a combination what can not be separeted.

Kar

you should read the scriptures from the begining and pay attention to all things,

because if it would not have been important it would not have been reccorded.

you can learn who is God,Christ and man so to understand what going on in Gods world ,and you would better understand the whys and the hows,whens,whats,wheres,this is important so no one can drift you away from Gods way,

we all stand alone in our faith, i can bring you to the water but you have to drink it.[/quote]
T, do you know how long it would take me to read the bible from beginning to end? Once was enough I think for the moment anyway. I actually have a really short attention span (I think?) which is probably why I read it in bits and pieces. But I will be reading some of the New Testament from beginning to end again , in the next few weeks.

Many people know the bible off by heart, yet are still confused. Have you noticed that?[/quote]
Kar

we all can improve on the attention span,you probably have notice in yourself that wen there is something that catch your attention you can focus on it for hours,(movie,outside event ect;)what is good for one thing is also good for the other,it is our hearth and likes.

but try to read the Psalms and Isaiah,and the NT.do not read it fast just make sure you understand what it says and what it does not says,do not assume anything.

and keep the your knowledge in your hearth.you may find out why it is called the living word.[/quote]
Thankyou for the advice T, I remember when I need to what I need to know with the Bible, I will be reading parts again though to get more insight again (once I can get myself off places like this website whenever I have any spare time).

[karmarie]

Opps sorry T ,dont know what went wrong with that post. My reply is the last 2 lines.

[karmarie]

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 22 2010,07:07)

To all, What does it mean that the Word was 'In the Beginning'? Does it matter that Satan was a liar 'from the Beginning', although he was not a liar from his creation but from when Sin entered him? God cannot change. If Jesus (to be) can change to a flesh and Blood man, then He cannot be [a] God, but he were [only] Divine (meaning a Heavenly Spiritual Creature), then He could change his form and nature. After all, some rebellious angels are said to have changed their form and nature, became man (super-men, giants) to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh. Their flesh became corrupt and tated death but their spirit remain in Sheol, until judgement day, when they will be destroyed.

JA thats how I see it, a Heavenly Creature. The Spirit Son of God hidden but then revealed. As you said.

[JustAskin]

Kar, and all,

The Scriptures says that 'the word' was in the beginning…with god'.

Everyday common sense says that 'that which is with another cannot itself be that other'.

Is it not also everyday common sense that the Son must come 'After' the Father and therefore cannot have been 'From Everlasting' like the Father.

Isaiah 49 speaks of God's Servant that He has 'hidden in the palm of His hand…'(vs 2).

God call [Jesus] His 'Servant' (Is 42:1, 49:3). [Jesus, himself] tells us: (Is 48: 16): '…From the time that it was, I was there and now the Lord God and His Spirit [has] sent me'

God did not reveal 'His Servant' THROUGH whom he created the Heavens and the earth and all things within – but man only became a living soul when God 'breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life'(that is, the Spirit of man), because He knew that the Hebrews/Jews would call his Servant 'a God' and worship him, too.

Jesus, when on earth, tells him disciples:'I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father'(John 16:28)

Again, Jesus says:And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.'(John 17:3)

All of John 16 and 17 are a testification from Jesus of His relationship with God, His Father and His own 'Servant' status.

As a result of Jesus' perfect servitude He was glorified and 'raised' to a superior position to that which he departed'.

If, Jesus was not preExistent, what previous position could He then have been raised above?

And to what glory could He have had with His Father that He refers to in 'Now glorify me with the glory I HAD with you…'

[karmarie]

JA,  its so clear when you can understand. Some say He was just a man, but thats discounting a whole lot of scripture which says otherwise. Its also taking away His hand in creation. His power. Who He was.

I think where people have the problem (like I used to) is trying to figure it out, thinking that somehow He was a flesh and blood Jesus also before, that does get confusing! (How does Jesus become a born baby who grows up to be…Jesus- again?) I never got that! Not untill I saw as I do now, it all makes sense. Spirit became flesh. “The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us”

[JustAskin]

Hi Kar,

I wish that all could believe as (and better) than you and I at this point. But Satan is not slow to realise whom he might sway from the truth.

I don't declare that I know all truth at all times because, like many here, I, too, am learning and have come under Satan's sway – become proud of my 'Enlightenment'.

This I know, and hold to: God is the ONE and Only God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Yashua the IAM, whatever name we interpret his “[this is my] Name [, forever]” to be.

Isaiah 4x… is full of God saying “I am One” “Beside(s) me there is no God”, etc. But, of course, He is calling upon the Hebrews/Jews to put aside their man-made Gods and worship Him only. He tells them how He loves them and punishes them for their own good and forgives them (How wonderful a Father he is: First the Love, then the admonishment, then the punishment, final the love again).

However, they cannot stay on the path of righteousness, His ways are too hard for them, He is too remote from them and too HOLY for them.

He has known all this from the beginning and has a Recovery Plan which he has hidden in his armoury until they have 'grown up' enough to understand (to eat meat and stop drinking milk)

He has always told them that he will be their Savour and through the prophets declared that He will deliver them from their enemies – and indeed he would if only they had subjected themselves wholly to Him.

So, little by little, He unfolds his plan, by declaring, cryptically, His Servant, who will execute his plan of Salvation: The perfect Servant who will be like them, a Man, someone who will show them that it is indeed possible to walk in the way of righteousness and not fall away.

That one was with Him from the beginning [of what? creation of the Universe and Mankind?] and has been perfect in all his ways, executing all things to His very “Word”.

Because man is sinful in the flesh, this sin needs to be expunged before man can regain his status as “a Son of God”.

From the beginning, God requested a blood offering from man as a sacrifice, means of showing penance, for sin (He accepts animal blood, for life is in the blood, but God doesn't want man to kill himself by offering his own blood as pagans do) but even this is only a temporary offset because man continues to sin, even after the sacrifice showing that man's sinful sacrifice is as short of purity as man is from God himself.

A 'Perfect, sinless' man is required to offer himself as the ultimate, perfect, pure Sacrifice. But who amongst earthly man can be found to be offered as such a sacrifice? Then Jesus (then to be) says: [“Here I am Send Me!”] and God instructs His Servant in all the things he is to do and say amongst his chosen tribe and redeem them as an example to all other tribes amongst the nations (Here is hint of a secret yet to be revealed)

All things are foretold by God but the realisation is slow to seep into the minds of the scripture readers/listeners, They think with earthly minds and believe that their current oppressors (The Romans) are to be overthrown by a powerful Military 'Servant' and eagerly await the fateful day!

The Servant, powerful and awesome (as even angels are!), Divine and unflinchingly devoted to his God, however, empties himself of all power and submits himself, under the command of God, His God, to be born as man in the flesh, to bring knowledge and understanding of God to man, through the mouth of a man so the chosen cannot say How can we believe what we cannot see [God, they want an Idol], How can we listen to what we cannot hear (they cannot hear God's word directly because of their sin but they fear they will die if they do), how can we do what a God does? (Their hearts are inclined towards evil and forsake the ways of the Spirit for that of the Flesh)

His ways are meek and mild, but even so, are more powerful for that in the message that he brings. The New Way, the Way of the Truth to God, his Father, to God OUR Father (if we chose). The Life after salvation that we should aspire to is not in the Flesh but in the Spirit but they cannot understand this, they keep looking down [the Satan's Earthly ways) when they should look up towards (God's Heavenly ways). For this, they despise Him and, in the fullness of time, put him to Death (But this was always in God's plan and known to Jesus)

Jesus Christ carries out all the orders of God, his father, gathers together the elected of man, selected by his father and given to him as helpers and administrator of the new covenant that he has brought from his Father and establishes them as leaders in his church, of which the Father has made him the Head.

Then the great secret is revealed: ALL men of ALL nations will be eligible for Salvation, even the despised Samaritan, the Greek, the Roman(!)… Now this may not seem very “Revellious” to us today, but remember that up until that point, the Jews were told and believed that They and Only They were ever to be “God's People” and they rested in that knowledge because they could show the great works that God had done for and to them by their forefathers.

They didn't realise that they were meant to become the 'Chosen nation that lead all other nations to God' but said, like a selfish child, “God is [ours] and [ours] alone – [we] aren't going to share Him with you – He's [ours]!!”

Jesus submits himself, a perfect man, in pain, suffering and grief, as the perfect sacrifice (As Jacob submitted himself to his Father Abraham) and pays for the Sin of the first perfect man (Adam), dies and goes down to Sheol (The holding place) and is raised to heavenly glory by the Spirit of God and secures himself the place of honor, on the right hand side of throne of his Father.

By this, Jesus Christ is given the glorious task of bringing God's original plan to completion (Jesus was the 'Beginning' and the 'End') and so on into the Book of Revelation (Which is [more than] a whole Topic in itself!).

Ok, what can we summaries:
– Yes, [Jesus] was 'PreExistent' but not exposed to public glory for good reason
– He is the Son of God because he walks fully in the ways of God
– He is the [ONLY] “Begotten” Son of God – anointed with the Holy Spirit meaning He is appointed as future (now Present) [Heavenly] King over man
– He is not God Himself (There is only ONE GOD) but was a Divine creature
– He was instrumental in the creation of the Universe and Human Kind but was not the Giver of life to man (He is though, the Sustainer of Life; 'In him is Life'…)
– He was a perfect Spiritual Servant to God who threw off his Divinity to become lowly man, subject to the laws of man, died at the hands of man, for the salvation of man.
– He died, rose again and sits as our Heavenly King [Of kings] and Lord [of lord] and is even now reconciling God's Kingdom and having his enemies put under his feet as a footstool (The submission position)
– He is to be Praised, Honored and Glorified by man and angels but Worshipped ONLY by the angels (ONLY God, Himself, is to be Worshipped by man and angels)

… just a little to be getting on with (For sure, if all the thing that I wish to write I were able to write, the whole of the Internet itself could not contain it…)

[GeneBalthrop]

JustAskin………..Wrong Jesus did not preexist his berth as a being of any kind, He was in the plan and will of GOD only, GOD had planned from the beginning of (HIS) creation of Man to bring us (ALL) into son and Daughters of HIS, from the very start of (HIS) Creation. The Man Jesus was the (FIRST) to Achieve that Goal, by the POWER of GOD. He became the First from Humanity to become a Son of GOD at the Jordan River when he recieved the Seed of the FATHER into HIMSELF,at that point he became a son of the Living GOD, “thou art my son (THIS) day I have (BEGOTTEN) YOU”< not some preexistent day in the far past. No one has produced (ANY) Scripture that shows (ANY) past activity of Jesus before HIs Berth here on earth.

To draw conclusions From scriptures not clearly stated is called (FORCING THE TEXT) and that should be avoided by all. No where in any bible doe it say Jesus Preexisted His Berth. Peter said it right Jesus Was (FOREORDAINED) (But) was Manifested (brought into existence) in our TIME.

Another error you ave is to say Jesus is the (ONLY) begotten Son , That was true at the time Jesus was baptized, but sense the Pouring out of GOD'S Spirit upon all flesh that has changed , “NO YOU NOT THAT YOU ARE ALL (NOW) THE SONS OF GOD”. We to who have the FATHERS SEED (Holy Spirit) in US are Begotten of GOD. Jesus was the (FIRSTBORN) of MANY Brethern, not the ONLY ONE.

PREEXISTENCE VIEWS ARE JUST AS BAD AS TRINITARIAN VIEWS ARE, maybe even worse because they support the separation of Jesus from our (EXACT) Identity. They obscure the clear view of Jesus' humanity and the power of GOD to perfect (ORDINARY) human beings.

THEY FORM AND CREATE ANOTHER GOD , THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN IDOLATROUS CONCEPTS. Everyone who promotes them are (ANTICHRISTS) and under strong (DELUSIONS) IN ORDER TO BELIEVE THE (LIE). 2Ths 2. Shows this clearly, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

[JustAskin]

Hi Gene,

John 6:62 says;”What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!”

However, everyone is entitled to their view. I will allow you yours without any further qualification from me for now and allow those witnessing this post to judge for themselves.

Regards,
Justaskin

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2010,03:17)

JustAskin………..Wrong Jesus did not preexist his berth as a being of any kind, He was in the plan and will of GOD only, GOD had planned from the beginning of (HIS) creation of Man to bring us (ALL) into son and Daughters of HIS, from the very start of (HIS) Creation. The Man Jesus was the (FIRST) to Achieve that Goal, by the POWER of GOD. He became the First from Humanity to become a Son of GOD at the Jordan River when he recieved the Seed of the FATHER into HIMSELF,at that point he became a son of the Living GOD, “thou art my son (THIS) day I have (BEGOTTEN) YOU”< not some preexistent day in the far past.  No one has produced (ANY) Scripture that shows (ANY) past activity of Jesus before HIs Berth here on earth. To draw conclusions From scriptures not clearly stated is called (FORCING THE TEXT) and that should be avoided by all. No where in any bible doe it say Jesus Preexisted His Berth. Peter said it right Jesus Was (FOREORDAINED) (But) was Manifested  (brought into existence) in our TIME. Another error you ave is to say Jesus is the (ONLY) begotten Son , That was true at the time Jesus was baptized, but sense the Pouring out of GOD'S Spirit upon all flesh that has changed , “NO YOU NOT THAT YOU ARE ALL (NOW) THE SONS OF GOD”. We to who have the FATHERS SEED (Holy Spirit) in US are Begotten of GOD.  Jesus was the (FIRSTBORN) of MANY Brethern, not the ONLY ONE. PREEXISTENCE VIEWS ARE JUST AS BAD AS TRINITARIAN VIEWS ARE, maybe even worse because they support the separation of Jesus from our (EXACT) Identity.  They obscure the clear view of Jesus' humanity and the power of GOD to perfect (ORDINARY) human beings. THEY FORM AND CREATE ANOTHER GOD , THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN IDOLATROUS CONCEPTS. Everyone who promotes them are (ANTICHRISTS) and under strong (DELUSIONS) IN ORDER TO BELIEVE THE (LIE).  2Ths 2. Shows this clearly, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

gene

yea ,you can do it ;To draw conclusions From scriptures not clearly stated is called (FORCING THE TEXT)

you do not even take the scriptures as they are written.

John 6:62 says;”What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!”

you fallow your own gospel.

[GeneBalthrop]

JustAskin……….Jesus origins (were) in Heaven He was in the Plan of GOD for (ALL) Humanity , Our origins were also IN HEAVEN by GOD the FATHER. And What if (WE) ascend UP where Our origins came from doest that Makes us a GOD or A PREEXISTENT PERSONS ALSO? Think about it, You can not disallow what has been written in many other places by making some simple understood statement. God vast Plan (WAS) and (IS) the salvation of His creation (ALL) of IT> Jesus was the (FIRST) to achieve that PLANNED GOAL. You can not separate Jesus' EXACT IDENTITY WITH OURS. That is what (ANTICHRISTS) DO.

peace and love to you and your……………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca……….And i see you are still following the same Spirit of the one you came here with, and fulfilling his deeds as an accuser of the brethren.

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2010,03:50)

Terraricca……….And i see you are still following the same Spirit of the one you came here with, and fulfilling his deeds as an accuser of the brethren.

gene B

i have seen many false doctrines they had all something in common ,they did not fallowed the scriptures.

and in time they fall in there own trap.

i do not accuse you Christ will do that in do time,
i only establish the fact that what you saying is out of scriptures or devious interpretation to them.

i will support any quotes you say in accord with the scriptures.

you are well established in scriptures this make it wors ,wen you use the scriptures to lead people away from the truth.

i do not accuse any one to stick to the truth of the scriptures.

[karmarie]

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 23 2010,04:33)

Hi Kar, I wish that all could believe as (and better) than you and I at this point. But Satan is not slow to realise whom he might sway from the truth. I don't declare that I know all truth at all times because, like many here, I, too, am learning and have come under Satan's sway – become proud of my 'Enlightenment'. This I know, and hold to: God is the ONE and Only God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Yashua the IAM, whatever name we interpret his “[this is my] Name [, forever]” to be. Isaiah 4x… is full of God saying “I am One” “Beside(s) me there is no God”, etc. But, of course, He is calling upon the Hebrews/Jews to put aside their man-made Gods and worship Him only. He tells them how He loves them and punishes them for their own good and forgives them (How wonderful a Father he is: First the Love, then the admonishment, then the punishment, final the love again). However, they cannot stay on the path of righteousness, His ways are too hard for them, He is too remote from them and too HOLY for them. He has known all this from the beginning and has a Recovery Plan which he has hidden in his armoury until they have 'grown up' enough to understand (to eat meat and stop drinking milk) He has always told them that he will be their Savour and through the prophets declared that He will deliver them from their enemies – and indeed he would if only they had subjected themselves wholly to Him. So, little by little, He unfolds his plan, by declaring, cryptically, His Servant, who will execute his plan of Salvation: The perfect Servant who will be like them, a Man, someone who will show them that it is indeed possible to walk in the way of righteousness and not fall away. That one was with Him from the beginning [of what? creation of the Universe and Mankind?] and has been perfect in all his ways, executing all things to His very “Word”. Because man is sinful in the flesh, this sin needs to be expunged before man can regain his status as “a Son of God”. From the beginning, God requested a blood offering from man as a sacrifice, means of showing penance, for sin (He accepts animal blood, for life is in the blood, but God doesn't want man to kill himself by offering his own blood as pagans do) but even this is only a temporary offset because man continues to sin, even after the sacrifice showing that man's sinful sacrifice is as short of purity as man is from God himself. A 'Perfect, sinless' man is required to offer himself as the ultimate, perfect, pure Sacrifice. But who amongst earthly man can be found to be offered as such a sacrifice? Then Jesus (then to be) says: [“Here I am Send Me!”] and God instructs His Servant in all the things he is to do and say amongst his chosen tribe and redeem them as an example to all other tribes amongst the nations (Here is hint of a secret yet to be revealed) All things are foretold by God but the realisation is slow to seep into the minds of the scripture readers/listeners, They think with earthly minds and believe that their current oppressors (The Romans) are to be overthrown by a powerful Military 'Servant' and eagerly await the fateful day! The Servant, powerful and awesome (as even angels are!), Divine and unflinchingly devoted to his God, however, empties himself of all power and submits himself, under the command of God, His God, to be born as man in the flesh, to bring knowledge and understanding of God to man, through the mouth of a man so the chosen cannot say How can we believe what we cannot see [God, they want an Idol], How can we listen to what we cannot hear (they cannot hear God's word directly because of their sin but they fear they will die if they do), how can we do what a God does? (Their hearts are inclined towards evil and forsake the ways of the Spirit for that of the Flesh) His ways are meek and mild, but even so, are more powerful for that in the message that he brings. The New Way, the Way of the Truth to God, his Father, to God OUR Father (if we chose). The Life after salvation that we should aspire to is not in the Flesh but in the Spirit but they cannot understand this, they keep looking down [the Satan's Earthly ways) when they should look up towards (God's Heavenly ways). For this, they despise Him and, in the fullness of time, put him to Death (But this was always in God's plan and known to Jesus)   Jesus Christ carries out all the orders of God, his father, gathers together the elected of man, selected by his father and given to him as helpers and administrator of the new covenant that he has brought from his Father and establishes them as leaders in his church, of which the Father has made him the Head. Then the great secret is revealed: ALL men of ALL nations will be eligible for Salvation, even the despised Samaritan, the Greek, the Roman(!)… Now this may not seem very “Revellious” to us today, but remember that up until that point, the Jews were told and believed that They and Only They were ever to be “God's People” and they rested in that knowledge because they could show the great works that God had done for and to them by their forefathers. They didn't realise that they were meant to become the 'Chosen nation that lead all other nations to God' but said, like a selfish child, “God is [ours] and [ours] alone – [we] aren't going to share Him with you – He's [ours]!!” Jesus submits himself, a perfect man, in pain, suffering and grief, as the perfect sacrifice (As Jacob submitted himself to his Father Abraham) and pays for the Sin of the first perfect man (Adam), dies and goes down to Sheol (The holding place) and is raised to heavenly glory by the Spirit of God and secures himself the place of honor, on the right hand side of throne of his Father. By this, Jesus Christ is given the glorious task of bringing God's original plan to completion (Jesus was the 'Beginning' and the 'End') and so on into the Book of Revelation (Which is [more than] a whole Topic in itself!). Ok, what can we summaries: – Yes, [Jesus] was 'PreExistent' but not exposed to public glory for good reason – He is the Son of God because he walks fully in the ways of God – He is the [ONLY] “Begotten” Son of God – anointed with the Holy Spirit meaning He is appointed as future (now Present) [Heavenly] King over man – He is not God Himself (There is only ONE GOD) but was a Divine creature – He was instrumental in the creation of the Universe and Human Kind but was not the Giver of life to man (He is though, the Sustainer of Life; 'In him is Life'…) – He was a perfect Spiritual Servant to God who threw off his Divinity to become lowly man, subject to the laws of man, died at the hands of man, for the salvation of man. – He died, rose again and sits as our Heavenly King [Of kings] and Lord [of lord] and is even now reconciling God's Kingdom and having his enemies put under his feet as a footstool (The submission position) – He is to be Praised, Honored and Glorified by man and angels but Worshipped ONLY by the angels (ONLY God, Himself, is to be Worshipped by man and angels) … just a little to be getting on with (For sure, if all the thing that I wish to write I were able to write, the whole of the Internet itself could not contain it…)

Wow just Askin, thats probably the best most truthfull way iv seen that all put in a long time. I hope people read and truely get what you just said, God bless you.

[942767]

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 20 2010,22:43)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 20 2010,17:57) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 20 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 20 2010,17:23) Hi K: Don't beat around the bush just answer my question.  Did Jesus pre-exist his birth into this world as a spirit being with a mind, a will and emotions? A son of God is someone who obeys the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Yes He did, a Spirit being with a mind, a will and emotions. As a Spirit with all these things as we also have, spirit not flesh. That is how I see it. Hi K: Thanks for telling me how you see it.  Following is the way that I understand it. The first Adam was in God's image in that God breathed the breathe of life into his nostrils and he became a living soul.  He was like God in that He had a mind a free will and emotions, but when God gave him the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the consequence of disobedience, he was in innocence.  When he disobeyed then he had a spirit of disobedience. Jesus did not become a living soul until he was born into this world, and his spirit was formed through obedience to the Word of God, and so it is written that the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is this spirit of obedience that gives life to the soul. Quote 5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, So do you believe He (called The word) pre-existed as a spirit? And that all was created through Him or no?

Yes, the spirit of the Son existed in the heart of the Father, but he did not exist as a sentient person. The soul of the Son did not exist until he was born of virgin Mary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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