Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2010,17:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2010,05:07) Jodi Don't you get it? John didn't say that those who do not confess “that Jesus is a mere man is a deciever”, but says that those who do not confess that “Jesus has come in the flesh”! John wrote “And the Word was made flesh”. John 1:14 What Word? The “Word of Life” that John says was with the Father. John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1-3 Blessings WJ Wow WJ. What a great post. I concur wholeheartedly.

T8

Wow, I am shocked, but thanks!
Blessings WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,17:12)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 15 2010,18:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2010,08:01) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 12 2010,23:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such! He said… John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven“… But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven! This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood! Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3. The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14 WJ John 6:50  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh. You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it. How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb? or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began? Jodi Are you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist? Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood? Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53 Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit. Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood… And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35 Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4 The Word of God is likened to bread here! Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3 Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)! And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven. So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23 Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”! Because we say he is “God with us”! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you acknowledge that Jesus was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but he was indicating it was through the words that he was speaking that they and we can have eternal life.  Is that what you are saying? Love in Christ, Marty Marty Yes! Did I or Jesus mean cannibalism! That still does not explain away the fact the “He” -“The Word of life”, John 1:1-3 came down from heaven and “He” – “The Word of life” is going back to where 'He the Word of life” was! Do you think that John did not understand this truth when he wrote John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Revelation 19:13 – John 6:62 – John 17:5. You guys continue to ignore the Greek Grammar and how it cannot be interpreted as a “plan that was with God that came down from heaven”, because as I have shown the Greek tenses show Jesus as doing the action like the Angel and the Holy Spirit who also “Descended” (katabainō) from Heaven! A plan does not act on its own! But hang on to your belief if you like Marty! But it is not scriptural to say Jesus did not come down from heaven and that he was of this world! Blessings WJ Hi WJ: And so, you want me to concentrate on “Greek Grammar” so that you can prove your doctrine when it was obvious that when Jesus was speaking of ea ting his flesh and drinking his blood, he was speaking of eating the Words that he was speaking? No Marty Just concentrate on the scripture and the way it was translated and reads… What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62 John 6:38-40 For “I have come down (katabainō) from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice Marty nowhere does our Lord in John 6 indicate he is just the plan of the Father that came down from heaven. If it is possible for that to be conveyed in the Text the Translators could have made it so, but there is not a Bible in the world that says such. So if you cannot agree to its reading without inference then you look into the Greek to see why it is translated that way and in this case the tenses show that Jesus is the one doing the “descending” (katabainō) just as the Holy Spirit and the Angel did. Matt 3:16 and Matt 28:2 The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. SO WHEN JESUS SAID “I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” THE GREEK TENSE SAYS HE IS DOING THE ACTION, THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE INTERPRETED “A THOUGHT OR A PLAN CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” BECAUSE THOUGHTS AND PLANS DO NOT PERFORN AN ACTION ON THEIR OWN! That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3 WHO IS THE **WORD OF LIFE** THAT WAS WITH THE FATHER MARTY? In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God”, and the Word was God. “THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD“. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. “IN HIM WAS LIFE AND THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. John 1:1 The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 Like I said, believe as you will. The scriptures say that Jesus came down from heaven and he was not of this world! And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23 AT Robertson states… I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi). The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger. “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31 Argue with scripture Marty! Blessings WJ

No WJ:

Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.

And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.

And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.

Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?

Quote

Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and

Quote

Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained:

Quote

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Quote

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Quote

Hebrews 1:10 (King J ames Version) 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand? This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.

Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?

Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi WJ:

You say:

Quote

No Marty Just concentrate on the scripture and the way it was translated and reads… What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62

Jesus explains what he is saying in the following verse. Where he was before was in the bosom of Father. He explains that it is the spirit that gives life that has come down from heaven, and that spirit he says is the Words that he is speaking to them. And so, the spirit that gives us eternal life(the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through flesh) was in heaven, and were now being spoken to them by the Father by the Father's Spirit.

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62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Come on WJ, this is so simple. Why do you want to complicate it and cause all of this endless debate.

Quote

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I know that Jesus exists now, and that he gave his life for us in order that we might have the privledge and honor of being sons of the Most High God. I know this by the Spirit of God my Father who dwells within me.

Enough of this confusion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi WJ:

Maybe the following scripture will help:

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Hebrews 11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,09:28)

Neither is it written that Jesus pre-existed, and the scripture warns about adding or taking away from the Word of God.

I don't have to use the word pre-exist if that is offensive. I can simply point out these facts which cannot be denied.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………..Before can imply al lot of things other then existences as brought out many times here, The problem is you and preexistences are (FORCING) the text to say something it does not specifically say. So while you say we shouldn't use the word Preexist because it is not in scripture , and that is right but also we shouldn't force the text to say what in fact it does not really say either. Many written words can be applied different way in the English language and that is part of the confusion that exists. If i say Jesus is before all things You take that as He was born before all things , while i take it as He is the Head of all thing pertaining to GOD.

You see what i am saying, and if you have Scripture that counter some things that Preexistences say Like Jesus created everything and you find Where GOD said He created all thing alone and by HIS SELF. Obviously there exists a contradiction in what is being put forth, so a error must exist in the understand of the texts. IMO

peace and love……………….gene

[Proclaimer]

You need to do a lot of work to make these points different to the way they are written.

Even though he came after John the Baptist, he was greater because he was before him.

We should say amen to “glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages”.

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus said, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus is the Offspring of David, and also the root.

Jesus origins are from of old, from ancient times.

God made the the universe through him.

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,11:59)

Hi WJ: Maybe the following scripture will help: Quote Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear Love in Christ, Marty

hi

this verse is pure physics science;Hebrews 11:3

at the end we all know that Gods invisible spirit is the creator of all things that can be perceived in the universe of ours and beyond,

all will see him even the ones who did not accept him.

[kerwin]

T8,

Your interpretation of 'Jesus said, “before Abraham was born, I am!”' is obviously in error as Abraham is Jesus' ancestor and no one is born before their ancestor. Scripture actually tells us Jesus was born in Bethleham long after Abraham.

Is scripture lying and Jesus was not born in Bethleham and is not the decendant of Abraham?

By the way scripture does tell us what Jesus meant because Abraham was one of those that is made complete only with the believers who are made complete through Jesus' death, resurection, and acention.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….You have it right, Jesus did not exist before his berth , except he was in the plan and foreknowledge of God the Creator of ALL things. Including Us and Jesus to. Trinitarians do not believe what GOD said about himself nor do Preexistences. All these false teachings diminish the work of GOD in Humanity as well as the work of Jesus as a MAN, Perfected by the one and only true GOD. All who deny Jesus' earthly berth and coming into existence in the flesh are (ANTICHRISTS). IMO

peace and love………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 17 2010,16:12)

You need to do a lot of work to make these points different to the way they are written. Even though he came after John the Baptist, he was greater because he was before him. We should say amen to “glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages”. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Jesus said, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus is the Offspring of David, and also the root. Jesus origins are from of old, from ancient times. God made the the universe through him.

T8…..It says Jesus was (GREATER) because he was (BEFORE) Him, is wrong. Why would that make Jesus (GREATER) if He was born before John the Baptist. There were millions born before John the baptist are they also greater then John . The word GREATER defines before as status or position, and has nothing to do with berth,

Look up the word (BEFORE) and you can easily see it can also mean in status and have nothing to do with time of berth.

Jesus did not say before Abraham I was born, you are forcing the text to meet you false understandings. Kerwin explained it right as well as Jodi and Others. Jesus existed in the Plan and Purpose of GOD Before Abraham came into existence, he was a more important figure than Abraham was, Or for that matter even Kind David, but, was still their offspring. His preordained destiny was greater the all man kind, because he is the first fruit from mankind to be perfected and inherit eternal life.

T8, the concept of the Trinity and Preexistence has greately distorted the truth of GOD brother, please reconsider your stand on this. IMO

peace and love top you and your…………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2010,17:11)

T8, Your interpretation of 'Jesus said, “before Abraham was born, I am!”' is obviously in error as Abraham is Jesus' ancestor and no one is born before their ancestor.  Scripture actually tells us Jesus was born in Bethleham long after Abraham.   Is scripture lying and Jesus was not born in Bethleham and is not the decendant of Abraham? By the way scripture does tell us what Jesus meant because Abraham was one of those that is made complete only with the believers who are made complete through Jesus' death, resurection, and acention.

KW

i follow your logic and it does not stand against what T8 says
you and “Gene” do not answer any question and respond with your opinions,

start to look the scriptures from the beginning to the end .and do not break any of the wording to imply your opinions

and if you want to use the expression that the scriptures are false in any way ,then i say you do not have any faith to stand on.

so show your scriptures views,versus the scriptures view of T8 and let go from there and see.

i would like to learn from your wisdom.

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 17 2010,15:33)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,09:28) Neither is it written that Jesus pre-existed, and the scripture warns about adding or taking away from the Word of God. I don't have to use the word pre-exist if that is offensive. I can simply point out these facts which cannot be denied. Even though he came after John the Baptist, he was greater because he was before him. We should say amen to “glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages”. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Jesus said, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus is the Offspring of David, and also the root. Jesus origins are from of old, from ancient times. God made the the universe through him. You cannot deny the above without denying scripture. I concur with all these points which are mentioned in scripture, do you? As you can see, the word “before” is mentioned quite a bit. So lets drop pre-exist as it is not mentioned and say “before”. e.g., Jesus is before all things. His origins are from ancient times. Nothing that was made was made without him. If you wish to contest these points, then your argument is not with me, but the people who wrote these.

Hi t8:

I concur with all of those points, but I understand them to mean that Jesus was fore-ordained, and not that pre-existed as a sentient person.

If you believe that he pre-existed, then please show me in what form he pre-existed.

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1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee said;

Quote

Jesus did not send himself out into the world to preach the gospel to heal the sick and to die for us on the cross. The ONE TRUE God did. This completely excludes Jesus from being the ONE True God. Anyone care to explain how it does not?

But Jesus did not have to lay down His life. The Father would have sent Him twelve legions of angels if He had asked. Jodi, you deny that Jesus gave Himself because He LOVES you. And the Father loves Him because of this:

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Jesus always said that He done nothing of Himself except for laying down His life. Regarding this one thing He said that He lays His life down “of Myself”.

Jodi, YOU MAKE ME WANT TO PUKE!  If I were your father I would take an ax to your computer so you could not infect people with your poison!

thinker

[942767]

Hi t8:

The first point that you mention supporting your belief:

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John 1:30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

He said cometh a “MAN”… Did Jesus exist as a man before he was born into this world?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi t8:

Point #2, Young's Literal Translation has it this way:

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Jude 1:25 to the only wise God our Saviour, [is] glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen.

This says “God” not Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Marty

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

No WJ: Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.

Good! Then why disagree with the scriptures? Jesus claim is that “HE” came down from heaven and is not from “Beneath” but from “Above” and that he is not of this world, therefore he is able to choose us “out of this world” how clear is that?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.

No that is Jesus point…

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

AT Robertson states…

I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

Why do you not believe him?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.   Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?

That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and Quote Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said…

…BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;

Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained: Quote 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So what, he was “foreordained before the foundation of the world”, of course it was ordained by the Father and prophesied of his coming into the world. What does that prove? It doesn’t negate Jesus coming into this world, of which he was not of and returning back to where he came from, does it?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3

There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. Not the Fathers plan or spoken words!

Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there?

How about…

Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15

AT Robertson states…

The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version) 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand?  This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.

Marty, is it really that important for you to deny the clear meaning of the text in order to support you suppositions? Why would the Father speak of the works of “Jesus hands” if Jesus wasn’t there?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?

Who says he didn’t know? It was John and Paul that wrote about “all things being made by him and without him nothing came into being”! John 1:3 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:2, 10 It was Jesus that gave them the Revelation by the Holy Spirit! Do you think the Holy Spirit knew this and Jesus didn't?

He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10  

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.

That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles!

Blessings WJ

[KangarooJack]

Marty said;

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Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand?

As a testimonial to us so that we know who Jesus is. Geez! Think man think!

thinker

[942767]

Hi t8:

Point #3 & 4: KJV

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Col 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Verse 14 states “in whom we have redemption through his blood” and then verse 15 states “who is the image of the invisible God”.  These verses are referring to Jesus in flesh.  He is the firstborn (in rank) because verse 16 explains that God made every thing that he made by him and for him.  (He is God's heir.)  Verse 17 (He was fore-ordained and is the culmination of God's plan for humanity)

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 18 2010,10:11)

Marty said; Quote Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand? As a testimonial to us so that we know who Jesus is. Geez! Think man think! thinker

Hi thethinker:

God already told us through the Apostle Peter who Jesus is:

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Matthew 16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And you still do not know who he is?

Love in Christ,
Marty

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