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Worshipping Jesus wrote:
Quote No, but you are implying that they did not know what they were saying when they were inspired to write the text!
If your implication is true then how can we truly know what any of the scriptures mean?
The writers of scripture knew what they were saying but the language they were using was not made to voice their ideas.
Another way of putting it is they were trying to express ideas from a monotheistic religion into a language developed to express polytheistic ideas. There is probably more differences than that but that one is a major issue.
We would probably still be OK if we had them here to clarify the issues that we misunderstand. As it is we have to piece it together from what little we have of their words without being influenced by false ideas gained in various ways.
Worshipping Jesus wrote:
Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
KwIsa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him
Isa 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD
Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured outJesu is that arm that God streched out
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 13 2010,14:32) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
KwIsa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him
Isa 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD
Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured outJesu is that arm that God streched out
Jesus was the Word of God and was called The Word of God. Check out Rev. 19″13-16 our KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
IreneQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean?Love in Christ,
Martyirene
thats also true ,but God foretold the commong of Christ ,and sinse he could not find any one on earth he took his right arm to do is will
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained himIsa 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Lk 1:51 He hath shown strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,11:32) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,18:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2010,09:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 12 2010,14:02) The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus 
Jesus flesh didn't come down from heaven and Jesus never said such!
He said…
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven“…But you say his literal “flesh and blood” came down from heaven!
This is why many left him because they thought he was speaking of his own body and blood!
Jesus is the “Word of life” that was with the Father and came down from heaven. 1 John 1:1-3.
The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
WJ
John 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”There you have it the bread that came down from heaven Jesus says is his flesh.
You seem to clearly deny this WJ, and I'd imagine then that you would have no clue as to what Jesus meant by it.
How is it that our sins are forgiven, and that we can obtain eternal life? Is it because some “living piece of bread came down from heaven” and shrunk himself into Mary's womb?
or is it because Jesus took his Righteous FLESH to the cross and bore our sins, a plan that CAME DOWN from the God of heaven of which He established before time began?
JodiAre you Catholic and believe in the Eucharist?
Have you eaten his literal flesh and drank his literal blood?
Because Jesus said unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. John 6:53
Jesus uses his flesh and blood as an allegory to eating his word and drinking his Spirit.
Don't you get it. He is the “Word of Life” that was with the Father and he gives us the definition of what it means to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood…
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: “he that cometh to me shall never hunger“; and “he that believeth on me shall never thirst“. John 6:35
Do you see it Jodi? Coming to Jesus at “his command” (his words) is eating his flesh.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“. Matt 4:4
The Word of God is liken to bread here!
Who is the “Word of life”? 1 John 1:1-3
Jesus also said that believing in him was the same as drinking of his own blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood)!
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, “and believeth on him, may have everlasting life“: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40
But you still insist that Jesus literal flesh and blood came down from heaven.
So Mary’s womb must have been heaven!
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning “the Word of life“. *THE LIFE APPEARED*; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you “the eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER” and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And “our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:1-3
The Word became flesh and “made his dwelling (Greek – tabernacled) among us“. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and “they will call him Immanuel”*–which means, “God with us.” Matt 1:23
Trinitarians are fulfilling this scripture by calling him “Immanuel”!
Because we say he is “God with us”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:And so, you acknowledge that Jesus was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but he was indicating it was through the words that he was speaking that they and we can have eternal life. Is that what you are saying?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,09:48) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean?Love in Christ,
Marty
God spoke and it came to be. His word was made “heaven and earth” as well because when he spoke they came to be.To All…..> it was through (flesh man) sin entered into the world, and it is through the (flesh man) Jesus sin is forgiven Man. We must take His flesh and blood sacrifice for our sins to ourselves. The blood of the flesh man, Jesus the Christ. God did not send a preexistent Being of some Kind and Morphed Him into the man Jesus. All you who preach that, CAN'T EVEN SHOW (ONE) scripture that say a PREEXISTING BEING WENT INTO THE WOMB OF MARY. Preexistences and Trinitarians are in the same false teaching Boat. They are Antichrists as John Plainly said they were. “WHOSOEVER DENYS THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH IS ANTICHRIST, THEY HAVE THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST WORKING IN THEM. IMO
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 13 2010,14:48) Marty Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 13 2010,13:52) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote The “Word” was made flesh! John 1:14
That would mean the Word was transformed to flesh, human body. I am going to say taking it literally is a mistake but perhaps I am wrong and The word of God was transformed to a human body.
But, the scripture states that Jesus body was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, what can “the Word was made flesh” mean?Love in Christ,
Marty
kerwin & Marty.My understanding of what “the Word was made flesh” means, is that Gods Word was previously the “written Word”, and now, through Jesus, it would become the “spoken Word”.
I would think the common opinion is that in John1:1, that the word “Word” (meaning Jesus) was God, I believe that to be incorrect.
This is the way it is written in the 'Concordant version', a literal translation…
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.Just my opinion, what do you think?
Blessings, Jerry.
gene
you do not know God neither his word,the antichrist is the ones who invent interpretation to the word s of Christ and change the word of God for his own benefit,
just like you do Gene.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 13 2010,16:51) gene you do not know God neither his word,the antichrist is the ones who invent interpretation to the word s of Christ and change the word of God for his own benefit,
just like you do Gene.
terraricca.
Gene hasn't posted for a few pages, what post of his are you referring to?Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 13 2010,17:39) terraricca.
I apologise, I missed his latest post. Is that the one you replied too?
COyes that s the one
Terraricca……you acting as an accuser of the brethren is the problem here because we don't buy into your deceptions you offer. Tell me what benefit i have Here in quoting Scriptures and telling how i understand them. An Antichrist is ones who denies Jesus came into existence through the Flesh as you and all Trinitarians and Preexistences DO> If you had the true Spirit of GOD in you you could (EASILY) understand this, You fulfill the deeds of your Father it seems, and your accusations prove who you follow. IMO.
Hi Gene.
While you and I seem to agree on most things, and I love you as a brother in Christ, I have to say that I disagree with you on the pre-existence of Jesus. I believe that scripture says that He (Jesus) was Gods original (first) of all creation, and all else was created by Jesus through the power of God.
I have copied the following from the 'Concordant Publishing Concern', which I find a very good teaching organisation. I would like you (and any others interested) to read it if you will, and let me know your opinion on this…1. WHILE STILL ALONE, God prepared the script for the Grand Drama of the Universe—to carry out His purpose…
Eph.1:9-12.
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
…and…
Eph.3:11.
11 in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord;2. God brings forth Christ,(Jn.8:42) Whom He designates as His son.(Rv.3:14)
Jn.8:42.
For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me.
Rv.3:14.
14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and “God's Creative Original”:3. Together, God the Father and Christ the Son create the Universe—the theatre wherein the Grand Drama is to be presented. Not only the stage, but the characters as well are brought into being.(Jn.1:3 Col.1:15-17)
Jn.1:3
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Col.1:15-17.
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.4. God, being spirit(Jn.4:24) and invisible,(1Tim.1:17) gives Christ, Who is the Image of the Invisible God,(2.Cor.4:4 & Co.1:15) the script for the Grand Drama with the power and authority to direct all action from beginning to end.(Mt.28:18, Jn.3:35, 1Cor.15:25-28, Hb.1:2-3, Rv.21:6 7 22:13)
Jn.4:24.
24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth.”
1Tim.1:17
17 Now to the King of the eons, the incorruptible, invisible, only, and wise God, be honor and glory for the eons of the eons! Amen!
2Cor.4:4
4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.
Co.1:15
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
Mt.28:18
18 And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, “Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth.
Jn.3:35
35 “The Father is loving the Son and has given all into His hand.
1Cor.15:25-28
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Heb.1:2-3
2 in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son, Whom He appoints enjoyer of the allotment of all, through Whom He also makes the eons;
3 Who, being the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption, besides carrying on all by His powerful declaration, making a cleansing of sins, is seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heights;
Rv.21:6
6 And He said to me, “I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Origin and the Consummation. To him who is thirsting I shall be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously.
Rv.22:13
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.5. Christ then produces and directs the Grand Drama precisely as the script calls for, ultimately stepping into and assuming the principal role Himself.(Jn.12:49-50 & Ph.2:5-8)
Jn.12:49-50
49 seeing that I speak not from Myself, but the Father Who sends Me, He has given Me the precept, what I may be saying and what I should be speaking.
50 And I am aware that His precept is life eonian. What, then, I am speaking, according as the Father has declared it to Me, thus am I speaking.”
Ph.2:5-8
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.6. After the final curtain falls on the Grand Drama, Christ brings the entire production company to God’s throne,(1Cor.15:28) where every actor is to be rewarded with a rightful place in God’s happy, eternal family.(Col.1:20)
1Cor.15:28
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Col.1:20
20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.To all who read this, feel free to comment please.
Blessings, Jerry.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 14 2010,07:20) Terraricca……you acting as an accuser of the brethren is the problem here because we don't buy into your deceptions you offer. Tell me what benefit i have Here in quoting Scriptures and telling how i understand them. An Antichrist is ones who denies Jesus came into existence through the Flesh as you and all Trinitarians and Preexistences DO> If you had the true Spirit of GOD in you you could (EASILY) understand this, You fulfill the deeds of your Father it seems, and your accusations prove who you follow. IMO.
geneget things clear for ones i do not judge you ,i judge what you are saying is not the truth ,
now if you think that i am not right in what i am saying you can confront me with scriptures ,but without brakin the other scriptures you do not quote.
the truth as to be before our opinions,
if you think that your opinion or interpretation is more than the word of God ,then you are judging God.
now you know your options use them.
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth? This is an article from Heaven Net, it is rather long, but worth reading, Irene
——————————————————————————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jes
us:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.
Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom w
as the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?
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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 14 2010,07:20) Terraricca……you acting as an accuser of the brethren is the problem here because we don't buy into your deceptions you offer. Tell me what benefit i have Here in quoting Scriptures and telling how i understand them. An Antichrist is ones who denies Jesus came into existence through the Flesh as you and all Trinitarians and Preexistences DO> If you had the true Spirit of GOD in you you could (EASILY) understand this, You fulfill the deeds of your Father it seems, and your accusations prove who you follow. IMO.
Gene read and learn about Jesus. The article is from Heaven Net.
Good luck and have an open mind for a change. Also terr. and chosen one have both good insights of the Word of God.
I might add
Rev. 19:13 read it…..
“He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He a name is written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Is there anybody else that is called that? No..
How nicely that goes with John 1:1, which you want to interpret to be a plan, or intellect.
IreneThe subject of this topic is “pre-existence”
Clearly, we are confronted with two different Jesus’. One who pre-existed his birth and another who did not. One is the true Christ, the other is an antichrist. This is obviously a most important question to pursue since only the true Christ can save us from the penalty of death.
“In the beginning [and throughout O.T. time] was the WORD [of God], and the WORD [of God) was with God, and the WORD [of God] was God” [not A God but THE God] (John 1:1).
Then, in N.T. time (John 1:14) IT the Word of God became flesh, became HE the Son of God, named Jesus by God Almighty, His Father.
1 Cor. 15:45 says: “Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit (notice, He BECAME not WAS a life-giving spirit). Vs 46 “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.”
The true Jesus became first physical and then spiritual according to scripture. The false Jesus was first spiritual, then became physical, and then spiritual again (according to mythology).
Romans 1:19-20 tells us that: “For what can be known about God is plain (is not a mystery) to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power (Holy Spirit) and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they (you) are without excuse.” There is no such thing as “preexistence” in the created order. The idea of pre-existence comes to us from the third century Roman Catholic mystery Trinity doctrine that claims that the second person of the trinity – Jesus, existed from all eternity.
Therefore, my Jesus is the one who came into being when He was BEGOTTEN of God and BORN of Mary 2000 years ago. Jesus came to show us the way by being our example in all things. If Jesus would have pre-existed His own birth, I should have existed before I was born, but I did not. Did you? I hope not!
For more on this subject visit: http://www.logoslogic.info
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