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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 04 2010,10:17) Psalms 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. and the WORDS of the Father became FLESH!!
Jodi! Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His tigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Along with John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…..
That is not God the Father, but Jesus Christ. The Father never was on Earth. Jesus however was and had blood on His robe, and the Father was not called:” King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus was…..
IreneIrene,
The WORD of God is NOT a PERSON, it IS the WORD of God. When God GIVES His Word to a person and that person speaks YHWH's words they are representing His words, be it an angel, Moses, the prophets, or Christ.
How do you interpret the following?–
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
The PERSON representing God's word in the above scripture is the MAN who SHED HIS BLOOD on the CROSS. This is the perfect example IMO of you taking the truth of Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit who shed his blood, and you change it into an ANTICHRIST image. Revelation is speaking of the MAN who shed his blood as being a man who SPEAKS the Father's WORDS. Revelation is not talking about Jesus pre-existing.
Show me ONE scripture Irene in the OT where a spirit son is said to be speaking God's word who later becomes Jesus? Where do the scriptures exist where God gives His word to some spirit son and then that son gives it to an angel who then inturn gives it to a human? Or where is the scriptures that state the Father giving His word to a spirit son who then gives it to people via dreams and visions?
Hebrews 1 states that the SON spoke to the people GOD”S WORDS AFTER the PROPHETS spoke to the people with GOD”S WORDS.
There exits NO scripture that states Jesus is the word of God because he pre-existed. The MAN JESUS CHRIST being declared the word of God is to establish the KNOWLEDGE that God FULFILLS His PROMISES!!
In the OT, before the MAN who's NAME is Jesus Christ existed, God SPOKE to people via His Holy Spirit through angels and through visions and dreams.
Irene, what do the Old Testament scriptures teach regarding firstborn sons and the RIGHTS of the Father? Do they or do they not teach about the younger son being ordained as firstborn if the Father sees fit?
In the beginning was the word of God.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Acts 13:35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Irene, Psalms 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Some spirit son that supposedly became Jesus did not tell David to write the above Psalm. Jesus the man born of Mary who died on the cross did not pre-exist as some spirit who was granted by God to speak His words in the OT. On the contrary, David received God's words and those words spoke of the coming Messiah Jesus…….and the WORDS of DAVID that CAME FROM GOD BECAME FLESH. These were the SAME WORDS that were in the Beginning WITH God in the form of a PROMISE, of which became fulfilled in the MAN Jesus Christ!!
Jodi! And the Word became flesh? That is Jesus that became flesh. In Rev. 19:13 read it.
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is the Word of God.”
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
That was Jesus. Only Jesus was called that, nobody else. You and Gene want to make something out of John 1:1 that is not there.
Jesus preexisted His birth on Earth. Along with John 1:1-2 and verse 14 go
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
Your theory is wrong 100%. Rethink it……
Your Scriptures have nothing to do with the subject at all. Over and over again you give these Scriptures and over and over again I will give you these that should show you the truth. If you read them the way they are written. And not make something else out of it. That is not the truth. That is your interpretation of Scriptures….
IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 11 2010,16:57) Irene, The WORD of God is NOT a PERSON, it IS the WORD of God. When God GIVES His Word to a person and that person speaks YHWH's words they are representing His words, be it an angel, Moses, the prophets, or Christ.
How do you interpret the following?–
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
The PERSON representing God's word in the above scripture is the MAN who SHED HIS BLOOD on the CROSS. This is the perfect example IMO of you taking the truth of Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit who shed his blood, and you change it into an ANTICHRIST image. Revelation is speaking of the MAN who shed his blood as being a man who SPEAKS the Father's WORDS. Revelation is not talking about Jesus pre-existing.
Show me ONE scripture Irene in the OT where a spirit son is said to be speaking God's word who later becomes Jesus? Where do the scriptures exist where God gives His word to some spirit son and then that son gives it to an angel who then inturn gives it to a human? Or where is the scriptures that state the Father giving His word to a spirit son who then gives it to people via dreams and visions?
Hebrews 1 states that the SON spoke to the people GOD”S WORDS AFTER the PROPHETS spoke to the people with GOD”S WORDS.
There exits NO scripture that states Jesus is the word of God because he pre-existed. The MAN JESUS CHRIST being declared the word of God is to establish the KNOWLEDGE that God FULFILLS His PROMISES!!
In the OT, before the MAN who's NAME is Jesus Christ existed, God SPOKE to people via His Holy Spirit through angels and through visions and dreams.
Irene, what do the Old Testament scriptures teach regarding firstborn sons and the RIGHTS of the Father? Do they or do they not teach about the younger son being ordained as firstborn if the Father sees fit?
In the beginning was the word of God.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Acts 13:35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Irene, Psalms 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Some spirit son that supposedly became Jesus did not tell David to write the above Psalm. Jesus the man born of Mary who died on the cross did not pre-exist as some spirit who was granted by God to speak His words in the OT. On the contrary, David received God's words and those words spoke of the coming Messiah Jesus…….and the WORDS of DAVID that CAME FROM GOD BECAME FLESH. These were the SAME WORDS that were in the Beginning WITH God in the form of a PROMISE, of which became fulfilled in the MAN Jesus Christ!!
Jodi………..> clear as you present it they Just do not get it. that to me is amazing.Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
The Older shall serve the younger!
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Jesus is the offspring of David, but he is the root of David for God appointed him firstborn over all creation.
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar– 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children– 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Matthew 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Jesus is the MAN born from THE PROMISE!
Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10 Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11 And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.
The YOUNGER Son BORN according to PROMISE is GIVEN the inheritance of his father, Isaac received all the rights of firstborn over his older brother. The SON of the PROMISE was Heir
Genesis 48:18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will bless, saying, 'May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!' ” And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Jesus Christ IS said to be firstborn over all creation. Scripture NEVER states that some spirit creature who later becomes Jesus was the first thing God ever created. The MAN Jesus is declared firstborn over all creation, this does not mean we need to change the very identity of Christ and say he must have pre-existed as some other creature.This means we take the direct lessons of Genesis and Paul's teachings of them and apply them to the rightful PERSON who is declared firstborn, the MAN Jesus.
I will state this again-
NO SCRIPTURE EVER STATES THAT SOME IMMORTAL SPIRIT SON WAS THE FIRST THING YHWH EVER CREATED!!
There is NOT one scripture in the bible that shows Jesus Christ as being the person who gave Isaiah the words of God.
Acts 28:25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying, 'Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
The Holy Spirit…the Spirit of the Father, gave Isaiah God’s word, and in turn Isaiah spoke of the COMING Jesus. When the MAN Jesus was conceived in Mary, Isaiah’s WORDS were fulfilled, making the word of God no longer a promise but a fulfilled promise with a MAN EXISTING in the FLESH!!
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Jesus did NOT pre-exist as some spirit creature who gave men the word of God, and then after he rose from the dead he went back to being this same spirit creature acting as the word of God. Before Jesus existed the Holy Spirit brought forth the word of God unto men, and after Jesus was changed into having incorruptible flesh and sat down at God's right hand, it was STILL God's OWN Spirit that brought forth God's words.
Matthew 4:14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: 16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.” 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all. 16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Jesus was the man God spoke about before time began and as well, the man whom He revealed to the prophets, as the MAN to one day COME and be a savior. When the PROMISE was made FLESH, Jesus became, as also spoken of by the prophets, the WORD of God. Jesus had been given the Holy Spirit and that caused Jesus to speak the words of God, and to heal with the power of God's word.
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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2010,15:39) Marty………Amen Brother, They just don't get it. Jesus did no preexist His berth on earth except in the (FOREORDAINED) plan and will of GOD, He is the First born into the kingdom of GOD from mankind. Just as Peter stated “For he was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time”. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 25 2010,05:48) Correct. We don't get it. We get:
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above you do not get.
The above is the truth of Gods word. Pure inference explains these clear truths away!
WJ
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Hi All
Jodi and Gene oppose the actual meaning of the Greek text. They have no Hebrew or Greek credentials and yet put themselves above the translators who are the experts.
If the Greek Grammar would allow for a different translation or interpretation, they would have translated it that way.
The inferences that Jodi and Gene force on the text is in violation of Greek gramatical rules.
They twist the text and make the word of God of none effect.
They have failed to address the points below but only ignore the truth of the clear meaning of these text as they do others in order to fit them into their manmade doctrine!
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word for “come” is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 11 2010,19:53) Jodi! And the Word became flesh? That is Jesus that became flesh. In Rev. 19:13 read it.
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is the Word of God.”
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
That was Jesus. Only Jesus was called that, nobody else. You and Gene want to make something out of John 1:1 that is not there.
Jesus preexisted His birth on Earth. Along with John 1:1-2 and verse 14 go
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
Your theory is wrong 100%. Rethink it……
Your Scriptures have nothing to do with the subject at all. Over and over again you give these Scriptures and over and over again I will give you these that should show you the truth. If you read them the way they are written. And not make something else out of it. That is not the truth. That is your interpretation of Scriptures….
Irene
READ THEM THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN?
???You need to listen to your own advice!
IT SAYS JESUS.
Irene show me ONE scripture in the Old Testament where you find the NAME JESUS and see him representing a living person speaking?
YES, the scriptures say JESUS, the NAME given to the HUMAN BEING conceived in Mary.
YOU Irene are not speaking of THIS HUMAN, you are speaking of ANOTHER CREATURE thus your doctrine = PURE ANTICHRIST!!
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
The He is the MAN who shed his blood on the cross. The He is not some spirit creature. This MAN is the word of God because he has the Holy Spirit in him, not because he pre-existed.
Irene don't you see what you are doing?
You see the name Jesus and you equate it with someone other then a MAN.
Irene, the NAME Jesus BELONGS to the MAN who DIED on the CROSS, and the MAN who's flesh did not see corruption.
You SAY Irene that a spirit creature was the first thing that God ever created. Can you show where in scripture such is true? Where does it talk about this spirit creature being made before time began?
I say that Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation, and I give direct scripture to show just exactly what this means.
Interesting how GENESIS lays the foundation for a YOUNGER SON receiving the Older's birthright. Interesting how Genesis lays the foundation for the Older son having to serve the younger. Interesting how Genesis sets the foundation of the PROMISE of a coming man who'd be able to bless all nations. But yet there exists NO WORD of God creating some immortal spirit creature that would later morph himself into a woman's uterus. But yet there exists NO WORD of an immortal spirit creature speaking as God's word to the people.
But yet MY scriptures have nothing to do with the subject.
John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?” 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do. 7 Philip answered Him, “Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little.” 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him, 9 “There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?” 10 Then Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted. 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” 13 Therefore they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.
Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Acts 3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
The people were expecting God to one day send them a HUMAN prophet that would be greater than all previous prophets!
1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
Luke 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
The people were expecting that one day God would send them a man whom their God would be a Father to, and that God would establish this MAN a throne that would last forever.
The people were waiting for their God to send them the man of God’s promises. When the men in John 6 saw the MAN Jesus perform a sign they declared him to be the MAN that God had promised them He would one day send. These men did not see Jesus as the eternal king because he pre-existed as some other creature, but BECAUSE of the PROMISE their fathers received which spoke of a HUMAN BEING. They did not see Jesus as a prophet because he existed before as the word of God, but BECAUSE of the PROMISE that Moses spoke about of there being a prophet from among their brethren.
John 6:16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going. 22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone– 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks– 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?” 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” 30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?” 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except H
e who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”The scripture is CLEAR as to what WAS IN FACT SENT, it was the FLESH that would die on the cross that we are to eat in order to receive eternal life. That which was SENT was in fact the MAN of the promise. The BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN is DIRECTLY said to be the FLESH of Jesus
There is absolutely nothing in the above chapter that even remotely speaks about Jesus pre-existing, or that some immortal creature gave up what he had and literally came down from heaven and became a man.
Everything in the above clarifies all that Gene and I have said, which is Jesus IS the MAN of the PROMISE. God promised one day to send a prophet, a man who would one day be an eternal king, who would save people from their sins. As promised, this man would die but his flesh would not to see corruption but receive immortality. Jesus was IN FACT THIS FLESH that God promised He would SEND!!
For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him…….this is the BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN!!
Jodi! Again and again you give Scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus.
John 6:38-40 shows us that He came down from Heaven to do the will of God. He was there before the world was. John 17:5
I do listen to my advice. I take the Word of God the way it is written. Not they way you take it. Your interpretation of that Word is wrong….
Also Jodi, do you ever read what others that followed my post and yours have to say about the subject at hand. W,J, has a real good understanding of the Word of God, which you also ignore.
That's all my friend I get so tired of such nonsense.Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 12 2010,09:02) Jodi! Again and again you give Scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus.
John 6:38-40 shows us that He came down from Heaven to do the will of God. He was there before the world was. John 17:5
I do listen to my advice. I take the Word of God the way it is written. Not they way you take it. Your interpretation of that Word is wrong….
Also Jodi, do you ever read what others that followed my post and yours have to say about the subject at hand. W,J, has a real good understanding of the Word of God, which you also ignore.
That's all my friend I get so tired of such nonsense.
For MY FLESH is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him…….THIS is the BREAD that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN!!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,06:27) Bump Hi All
Jodi and Gene oppose the actual meaning of the Greek text. They have no Hebrew or Greek credentials and yet put themselves above the translators who are the experts.
If the Greek Grammar would allow for a different translation or interpretation, they would have translated it that way.
The inferences that Jodi and Gene force on the text is in violation of Greek gramatical rules.
They twist the text and make the word of God of none effect.
They have failed to address the points below but only ignore the truth of the clear meaning of these text as they do others in order to fit them into their manmade doctrine!
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word for “come” is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Hi WJ:And so, Jesus said he came from God and he was going back to God.
How did Jesus come from God? The scriptures state that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in womb of the virgin Mary. Isn't that what the Word of God states?
And said that the Words that he spoke and that he obeyed came from God. Did he not?
What is so difficult to understand about this?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,17:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,06:27) Bump Hi All
Jodi, Gene and Marty oppose the actual meaning of the Greek text. They have no Hebrew or Greek credentials and yet put themselves above the translators who are the experts.
If the Greek Grammar would allow for a different translation or interpretation, they would have translated it that way.
The inferences that Jodi and Gene force on the text is in violation of Greek gramatical rules.
They twist the text and make the word of God of none effect.
They have failed to address the points below but only ignore the truth of the clear meaning of these text as they do others in order to fit them into their manmade doctrine!
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word for “come” is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Hi WJ:And so, Jesus said he came from God and he was going back to God.
How did Jesus come from God? The scriptures state that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in womb of the virgin Mary. Isn't that what the Word of God states?
And said that the Words that he spoke and that he obeyed came from God. Did he not?
What is so difficult to understand about this?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,17:54) What is so difficult to understand about this?
MartyPhil 2:6-8 says that he came in the “Likeness of sinful flesh” and was found in fashion
as a man.Jesus clearly said…
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?And many other statements that he made indicating that he came down from heaven and not just that he existed in the Fathers thoughts.
Words like “I came down from heaven” – “where I was before” – “the Glory I had with the Father” – “before Abraham was I exist”, are undeniably Jesus claim that he existed before he came in the flesh!
The Greek Grammar does not allow for the lies of the Unitarian and their false assumptions that Jesus did not preexist his appearing in the flesh!
This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because “HE WAS BEFORE ME“. John 1:30
You do realize John was concieved and born before Jesus, yet John says he was before him?
What is so difficult to understand about that? So now you have been added to the list that denys these scriptural truths!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,10:19) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,17:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2010,06:27) Bump Hi All
Jodi, Gene and Marty oppose the actual meaning of the Greek text. They have no Hebrew or Greek credentials and yet put themselves above the translators who are the experts.
If the Greek Grammar would allow for a different translation or interpretation, they would have translated it that way.
The inferences that Jodi and Gene force on the text is in violation of Greek gramatical rules.
They twist the text and make the word of God of none effect.
They have failed to address the points below but only ignore the truth of the clear meaning of these text as they do others in order to fit them into their manmade doctrine!
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word for “come” is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Hi WJ:And so, Jesus said he came from God and he was going back to God.
How did Jesus come from God? The scriptures state that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in womb of the virgin Mary. Isn't that what the Word of God states?
And said that the Words that he spoke and that he obeyed came from God. Did he not?
What is so difficult to understand about this?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,17:54) What is so difficult to understand about this?
MartyPhil 2:67 said that he came in the “Likeness of sinful flesh” and was found in fashion as a man.
Jesus clearly said…
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?And many other statements that he made indicating that he came down from heaven and not just that he existed in the Fathers thoughts.
Words like “I came down from heaven” – “where I was before” – “the Glory I had with the Father” – “before Abraham was I exist”, are undeniably Jesus claim that he existed before he came in the flesh!
The Greek Grammar does not allow for the lies of the Unitarian and their false assumptions that Jesus did not preexist his appearing in the flesh!
This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because “HE WAS BEFORE ME“. John 1:30
You do realize John was concieved and born before Jesus, yet John says he was before him?
What is so hard about that?! So now you have been added to the list that denys these scriptural truths!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning. All things were made with him in mind. He was in likeness of sinful flesh in that he was a man but not born of the sperm of man, but was conceived of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said this:
Quote John 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. And 1 Peter says that he was foreordained not that he pre-existed his birth. God is not the Father of confusion.
Quote 1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Quote Hebrews 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Jesus said:
Quote 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
And so, how did God give us this “true bread from heaven”?
Quote John 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:AND THE BREAD THAT I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD. But he was not speaking of literally eating his flesh, but it was necessary for him to come in the flesh in order offer his life for the sins of the world. It is through the life that he lived, the Word of God that he obeyed, and that was spoken by God through him that we have life, and also, the blood that was shed for our sins.
And so he said,
Quote John 6:62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth? No, he did not. He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 02 2010,04:25) Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory?
One thing you need to realise before even having to explain this, is that if the glory is as you say it is, then we can make the same claim too. So will your last words be “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”? If yes, what do you think the hearers would think? That you were a plan?Now what is the glory? I would say it is the Father's glory. As the Word which is Jesus, was WITH the Father.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.”Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.And finally we have this pearl.
John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.Now think about that. If you said that you loved your child before 1990, then as a side note, you would just assume that your child was born before that year would you not?
Hi t8:
He also loved us from the foundation of the world. He has forseen everything from the beginning to the end.
Quote John 17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Love in Christ,
MartyGood point. But we weren't WITH God and we didn't have glory WITH God. It could be that we were a thought before being created, unless of course we actually preexisted.
But what is written. Well it does say somewhere that he knew us or a specific person while we/he was in the womb, not that we were WITH him or had glory WITH him. Also, when we are in the womb, are we a person or a living being? If so, then that doesn't compare to having glory with God before the world began.
Then there is the matter of the book that is slain from the foundation of the world. Is that book the book of life containing the names of those who will inherit eternal life. If yes, then God knew us before the womb or before we existed, but does that equate to being WITH God or having glory with God before the world began?
WorshippingJesus said to Marty:
Quote The Greek Grammar does not allow for the lies of the Unitarian and their false assumptions that Jesus did not preexist his appearing in the flesh!
Right on brother! Jodi Lee and Marty deny the truth!thinker
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2010,12:21) Good point. But we weren't WITH God and we didn't have glory WITH God. It could be that we were a thought before being created, unless of course we actually preexisted. But what is written. Well it does say somewhere that he knew us or a specific person while we/he was in the womb, not that we were WITH him or had glory WITH him. Also, when we are in the womb, are we a person or a living being? If so, then that doesn't compare to having glory with God before the world began.
Then there is the matter of the book that is slain from the foundation of the world. Is that book the book of life containing the names of those who will inherit eternal life. If yes, then God knew us before the womb or before we existed, but does that equate to being WITH God or having glory with God before the world began?
Hi t8:This is what Jesus said:
Quote 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Glory, which thou hast given me, he says. He is God's heir, and we will share that glory with him as joint heirs.
He said the following:
Quote 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: God has forseen when each individual will come into this world and knows who will be reconciled to Him and who will not, and so, he has loved us all from the beginning of the world, but only Jesus has been brought forth into the world by the exclusive action of God, and HE created this world knowing that in the fullness of time, He would bring him forth into this world.
God said the following to Jeremiah:
Quote Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.Love in Christ,
Marty
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