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Hi W,
If there are things difficult to understand then the lack is in us.
It is never a justification for adding to scripture.Proverbs 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2007,07:56) Hi W,
If there are things difficult to understand then the lack is in us.
It is never a justification for adding to scripture.Proverbs 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
NHIts not a matter of being difficult to understand. Its a matter of letting go of our theology to align with all the scriptures!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2007,09:28) Hi w,
Did you say that?
NHSure did! And I practice it! How about you?
Try this, When Y'shua was a baby in the womb of Mary, He was not god fully, there remained a Father in heaven whith the power of His Spirit. We are told that Y'shua was born of the flesh.
The human race could never survive even for a second without Him watching over us at all times, much less 9 months!The thing that bothers me about the “trinity” doctrine is that we would have to draw a line between the Spirit and the Father and this can never be, as if the Spirit could function without YHWH. HA
wj… good advice you need to take it > seening you can't even answer the simplest scripture in the bible .
i am still wating for you to answer where Jesus said (THOU) art the (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD.
wj you would do better to take your own advice…..Gene
laurel….> the Father is HOLY and is SPIRIT and can indwell Jesus as well as you and me . IT plainly say's God works in us to will and do his good pleasure. Just as he did in our Lord Jesus the (CHRIST). he can also do in us. let this mind be in us as was also in Christ Jesus our Lord. there's no different it's only one holy spirit which is the spirit of truth given us from God the Father and this ties us all together, Just as it say's that God may be in all and through all. hope this helps… gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2007,11:20) wj… good advice you need to take it > seening you can't even answer the simplest scripture in the bible . i am still wating for you to answer where Jesus said (THOU) art the (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD.
wj you would do better to take your own advice…..Gene
GBYou are not even quoting the scripture correctly!
I have answered this question, but apparently you didnt read it or didnt hear what you wanted!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and* Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.In these 4 verses we see the Beloved Disciple John who leaned on the bosum of our Lord, ascribe the word “Theos” 2 times to Jesus and 1 time to the Father and I believe one time to both, Jn 5:20.
For John 5:20 says if we are in his Son we are in the “True God”! And of course Jn 17:3 says that life eternal is knowing both the Father and the Son!
Which in my opinion if Jesus is not God as the Father is, and as Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 and others say, then there are some issues with the Hebrew scriptures to contend with!
Now tell me GB. Which one of these scriptures should I blot out or throw out or twist or ignore to support your belief that John 17:3 is unambiguous proof that Jesus is not God!
It looks like by your logic here that since the scripture says in Jn 17:3 that the Father is the “only true God”, then this means Jesus is not God.
However if we use your logic with Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 then that would mean that the Father is not God!
Since you dont trust the scriptures that we have because you think they have been mistranslated by brain washed Trinitarians then tell me which of these four scriptures should I accept and reject the others?
John penned all of these scriptures and had every opportunity to use another greek word for Jesus besides “Theos”.
He could have used…
“chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”
or
“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power.
or
“theotes, Col 2:9”
or
“theiotes” Rom 1:20″
Why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1 and John 20:28?
The Word “Theos” is not found in NT scriptures ascribed in a “true or positive” sence to any other living being other than the Father and Jesus!
Thats 1336 times. And I have checked them all!
Overwelmingly the evidence shows that John believed Jesus to be “True God” One with the Father!
Further more John believed that Jesus was/is YHWH in the flesh according to (Isa 6:1-5 and Jn 12:37-41) and (Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37).
So GB. Rant and rave about the “Trinity is false” the “Trinity is a lie” “Trinitarians are brain washed”, all you want.
But your proof text is ambiguous as far as Jesus not being God!
You are gonna have to do better than that!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2007,17:49) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2007,11:20) wj… good advice you need to take it > seening you can't even answer the simplest scripture in the bible . i am still wating for you to answer where Jesus said (THOU) art the (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD.
wj you would do better to take your own advice…..Gene
GBYou are not even quoting the scripture correctly!
I have answered this question, but apparently you didnt read it or didnt hear what you wanted!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, *and* Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.In these 4 verses we see the Beloved Disciple John who leaned on the bosum of our Lord, ascribe the word “Theos” 2 times to Jesus and 1 time to the Father and I believe one time to both, Jn 5:20.
For John 5:20 says if we are in his Son we are in the “True God”! And of course Jn 17:3 says that life eternal is knowing both the Father and the Son!
Which in my opinion if Jesus is not God as the Father is, and as Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 and others say, then there are some issues with the Hebrew scriptures to contend with!
Now tell me GB. Which one of these scriptures should I blot out or throw out or twist or ignore to support your belief that John 17:3 is unambiguous proof that Jesus is not God!
It looks like by your logic here that since the scripture says in Jn 17:3 that the Father is the “only true God”, then this means Jesus is not God.
However if we use your logic with Jn 1:1 and Jn 20:28 then that would mean that the Father is not God!
Since you dont trust the scriptures that we have because you think they have been mistranslated by brain washed Trinitarians then tell me which of these four scriptures should I accept and reject the others?
John penned all of these scriptures and had every opportunity to use another greek word for Jesus besides “Theos”.
He could have used…
“chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”
or
“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power.
or
“theotes, Col 2:9”
or
“theiotes” Rom 1:20″
Why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1 and John 20:28?
The Word “Theos” is not found in NT scriptures ascribed in a “true or positive” sence to any other living being other than the Father and Jesus!
Thats 1336 times. And I have checked them all!
Overwelmingly the evidence shows that John believed Jesus to be “True God” One with the Father!
Further more John believed that Jesus was/is YHWH in the flesh according to (Isa 6:1-5 and Jn 12:37-41) and (Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37).
So GB. Rant and rave about the “Trinity is false” the “Trinity is a lie” “Trinitarians are brain washed”, all you want.
But your proof text is ambiguous as far as Jesus not being God!
You are gonna have to do better than that!
WJ,Do me a favour…calm down. May be you should take a break. I pray the peace of our Lord be upon you!
This is what 1 John 5:20 says to me ok? Please don't get upset, believe what you will but don't let it get to you, OK?
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God [WORD] is come, and hath given us an understanding,
*The Word give us understanding of the Father and His plan.
that we may know him [Jehovah] that is true, and we are in him [Jehovah] that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ
The Word gives us understanding that we may know the Father that is true…and we are in Jehovah that is true [and/even] in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, [Father and Son] and eternal life.
The true God! Jehovah and the Word who is now flesh is the title God which was from the beginning John 1:1.
The difference is NOW Jehovah has a born Son who is His Word, THIS IS THE TRUE GOD.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ [the WORD], whom thou hast sent, John 1:1.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus is now part of the Father as the Word was in the beginning John 1:1. Having received the Glory He deserves as GOD, being part of the Father. Again the difference IS that the Word has become flesh and now is the Father's first begotten Son.The True God is Father and Son in the Holy Spirit.
IHN& eternal LOVE,
Ken
wj..> ok i will quote it completely , and this is eternal lide, that they might know (THEE) the (ONLY) true GOD (AND) Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
the point dosen't change what does (THEE) and (ONLY) mean?
you keep using the word (AND) as the same person when infact the and refers to another when two persons are involved. If Jesus was speaking of himself he would have worded it like this.
that they might know thee the only true God (who) is Jesus Christ.
the logic fails in your explanations and the then John 1:1 text if John was indicating Jesus was the word he would have used Jesus. and the text would have read, : in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.
John wasn't stupid if thats what he wanted to say he simply would have said it.and what do you do with the scriptures that say the words Jesus was speaking weren't his, but the words of Him who sent Him.
and scriptures where he said the son of man could do nothing of himself.
not to mention all the other scriptures which i could list which would hundreds that show God the Father as only (ONE) GOD.
even Jesus said how can you believe recieving glory from eachoother and do not seel the Glory that comes form the (ONLY) GOD>
i could go on and on but whats the point, you have your way which is trinitarian and I have mine which is (ONE) GOD and ONE MEDEIATOR who is the (MAN) Jesus the anonited or Christ, not a God or a Man God.
if we cant get passed somthing so simple whats the point of continuning…..GeneScripture interprets itself. Scripture tells us that Y'shua Messiah and our Father are one. It tells us if you deny one you automatically deny the other. Messiah said “I and my Father are one.” He also says, “No one comes to the Father but by me.”
And another thing when Messiah was dead as a door nail, DEAD, He was raised up by His Father. In this incidence we should be able to see that the two act separately for the exact same purpose. There is no “trinity”. I base this on the christains defenition of trinity whih is three separate beings that act as one. I will say it once and for all, the Spirit is not a being. Yes, it is a comforter, it is peace, and all the qualities we find in the Father which He passed to His Son, but all this is only possible by His might, His will, His Spirit. Y'shua is the fulfullment of the Word which is the Spirit, so just as He and His Father are one, this can only be made possible through the power of His mighty Spirit. The Spirit is not a someone that act of it's own will. The Spirit IS the will of the Father who sent it, through His Son.You people keep arguing doctrine, when do you open the eyes and follow Him. Keep His commands and you will be blessed with understanding, that is the only way.
Note to Gene, and btw I do not subscribe to the trinity. Yes, Y'shua is the Word. If you read on and grip the meaning through the entire text, it specifically reads that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. You gotta remember this was written after Messiah returned to heaven where He is seated at the right hand of the Father. So when this was written, it was known by His deciples that Y'shua is the fulfillment of Scripture. Y'shua taught His deciples “these things”, to understand at this now latter time which was after the Feast of Weeks written of in Acts, where the the Spirit came upon them and 3,000 other people in attendence. When the gospels were written it was by men inspired and full of the Spirit of Elohim. Taught by the Master Himself. These were not idiots of true doctrine, they wrote it.
Even so the Messiah is the Word, does not change anything in relation to the false trinity. It only makes it more clear, the power of the Spirit, and in awe I stand as I learn along the way.Quote Y'shua is the fulfullment of the Word which is the Spirit, So the Word is the Father's Spirit?
Ummm, That's interesting
Mat. 27:1 Says he who does the will of My Father will see heaven.
Mat. 10:32 says he who confesses me to men, I will confess these to my Father.
Mat. 11:27 says, all things are delivered unto me by my Father.John 14:17 says even the Spirit of truth who you have not seen…
now look at this
John 1:18 says no man hath seen Gos except the Son and who He has declared Him to.The power, the Spirit definately comes forth from the Father, who has bestowed it upon the Son.
Luke 3:22 The spirit decended upon Y'shua from heaven, like a dove and a voice from the Father in heaven said, “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.”
If you were there and saw it, you would believe it.
Look at it this way, I am a poet and I am in love. I am terribly shy, so I show my true self in a poem to my true love, this poem is an expression of my innermost thoughts, who I am am, how I think, what I wish for, etc. His Word is His breath, His expression, His will, His hope for us, fulfilled by His Son, to the letter in every detail. His Word lives, because He lives in us through it, which is why it is so important that we do not erase any of it or add to it.
Did Jesus humble and empty himself and became a man?
Did he not then return to the Father's side to the glory that he once had?
Is his origin not from ancient times?
Is he not before all things?
Is he not the Word who became flesh and is still called the Word?
Did he not exist before Abraham?
Was he not before John the Baptist, even though he came after?
Is he not both the root and offspring of David?
Was he not the rock that accompanied the Israelites?
Was he not from Heaven before he came to earth?
Did he not return to Heaven, rather than visit for the first time?
Is he not the wisdom of God?
Is God our Savior not deserving of glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore?If not, then I guess I should just throw away my bible.
What do you think?
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