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Quote In fact IMO if all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, if Jesus would be a mere man, He too would have sinned. Adam was a man. He had a choice. (If he didn't have a choice, then God knew all the suffering in the world would happen before he even created Adam.)
Adam didn't inherit imperfection and sin they way all other humans did.
Neither did Jesus, because he too did not come into this world in the normal way.The Bible says he “became flesh.” If he was not a “man” then in what way was the ransom sacrifice a “ransom” (an equal price paid). Jesus is called the last Adam, because he gained back what adam lost and could only do this as equal to adam (man).
kerwin No you deny those Scriptures and want to make Christ a mere man, He is the Son of God and will never be mere man or was. How can you even say that when even God the Father called Jesus God in Hebrew 1:8 and John 1:1 those Scriptures also tells me something which you want to deny. No a thousand No's to me, you believe what you want, I know you will, and that is the end of our debate, I tried that's all.
Peace and Love to you and yours, IreneHello Irene,
What part of Jesus WAS NOT human?
Jesus was a perfect MAN because the Father's Spirit was in him to a measure that influenced him not to sin.
I believe to say that Christ had to be MORE then flesh, is the purest form of antichrist.
To All………..All Antichrists believe Jesus was a Preexisting Being of some Kind. But John said “those that say Jesus came (into existence) not in the flesh are of the Antichrist. That is the (SPIRIT) (INTELLECT) of Antichrist.” which you have heard (by Paul 2Ths2) is coming into the world and there were already many Antichrist even at that time. Just like Paul and John said.
To be a Antichrist is to deny Jesus' Humanity, and worship him as a GOD or some Preexistent super Being of some Kind. People not only deny Jesus but deny also the work of GOD (IN) HIM. IMO
gene
you can't even read what you saying,YOU HAVE MADE YOURSELF AN ANTICHRIST,BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURES SAYS VERY CLAIRLY THAT CHRIST EXISTED PRIOR TO BECOME JESUS .
YOU KEEP ADDING MORE AND MORE DEVIL TEACHINGS ;INTELLECT=HOLY SPIRIT–NO FREEWILL EVEN FOR GOD–MAKE ANTICHIST FROM THE APOSTELES AND GOD WORDS,
THIS IS THE DROP THAT FULL THE BUCKET.
Terraricca……….I am not the one denying Jesus came into existence as a Flesh Being , it is you and the rest of the PREEXISTENCES , who Like the Gnostic's believed Jesus Preexisted as some kind of super being , and then Morphed in the womb of Mary. That is your false teachings not Mine , You fit being an Antichrist according to John. It is you that believe Jesus was (MORE) then Man by a Preexistence, Status NOT ME. GO reread what John wrote about those denying Jesus as coming in the FLESH, only this time think about it. Instead of going around accusing people of being the devil, like the Pharisees did Jesus.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 18 2010,14:22) Hello Irene, What part of Jesus WAS NOT human?
Jesus was a perfect MAN because the Father's Spirit was in him to a measure that influenced him not to sin.
I believe to say that Christ had to be MORE then flesh, is the purest form of antichrist.
Jodi! I do know that you don't believe Jesus own words when He said that He was with the Father before the world was. He had a glory which He had before He became a man. If and He was with the Father then He was a Spirit Being and that is why He knew where He was before, and that makes Him not just a mere man. Even if He did not existed before, He still was not a mere man, He is the Son of God, that makes Him special in my eyes. If you want to believe otherwise that is your business…..gene
Terraricca……….I am not the one denying Jesus came into existence as a Flesh Being , it is you and the rest of the PREEXISTENCES , who Like the Gnostic's believed Jesus Preexisted as some kind of super being , and then Morphed in the womb of Mary. That is your false teachings not Mine , You fit being an Antichrist according to John. It is you that believe Jesus was (MORE) then Man by a Preexistence, Status NOT ME. GO reread what John wrote about those denying Jesus as coming in the FLESH, only this time think about it. Instead of going around accusing people of being the devil, like the Pharisees did Jesus.
were did i say he was more than a man,the fact that he preexisted has no bearing on the fact that he was a man,man =flesh, is spirit that is were the difference lays.
that is the bible teaching,but you are not in the bible ,you have your own bible.Quote (Gene @ Feb. 11 2010,03:14) Show us (ONE) Scripture the specifically say Jesus Preexisted his Berth as a Being in any form.
Philippians 2:6
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.A clear picture is it not?
Divine nature > chose to be demoted to servant-hood > human > humbled > death > back to the glory he had with God in the beginning at God's right hand side.
You asked what form, and the answer is divine nature.
T8,
I believe that you give too many scriptures to address them as the need to be addressed.
Take this one from John for instance.
T8 quoted:
Quote John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began
Where do4es it state anything about Jesus preexistence. In fact where is the word preexistence in scripture. In short you are determining Jesus preexists by conjecture and not because scripture teaches you that he does..
Please note that by conjecture I mean an inference based on incomplete evidence.
Let’s say for instance that “glory” means something conferring honor or renown. Your assumption is that an individual has to exist to receive from God and yet scripture contradicts you. As it states that the glory of believers was prepared for them before time began.
1 Corinthians 2:7(KJV) reads:
Quote But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
That same mystery and his part in it is what Jesus was speaking of in John.
What scripture actually states about Jesus is that even after his death, resurrection, and ascension is that he is still a mere human being whom has been elevated in rank by being appointed the mediator between God and mankind. In this way he was elevated from a little lower than the angels to being King of everything in heaven and on earth. Nevertheless he is still a mere human being who was tempted even as we are but without sinning. There is no divinity since there is only one God.
1 Timothy 2:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I also note that scripture states that John the Baptist conceived just like he states Jesus was conceived though the detail varied just like the detail of the standard conception of identical twins vary from those of the standard conception of a singleton or a standard chimera.
T8 wrote:
Quote A clear picture is it not?
A few words you seemed to miss in the other scriptures.
In Philippians 2 you missed the whole of verse 9 which reads “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,” since if he was exalted to the highest place and given the name he did not already occupy that place nor have that name even though God had that place and name prepared for him before the creation of the world.
In Hebrews 1:3 you miss the words “after” which means that he did not sit at the right hand of God before his death, resurrection and ascension
T8 wrote:
Quote .Divine nature
Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
T8 wrote:
Quote chose to be demoted to servant-hood
Luke 22:26(KJV) reads:
Quote But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
In other words Jesus took a godly attitude by action humbly even to the point of death and so serves as our example.
T8 wrote:
Quote back to the glory he had with God in the beginning at God's right hand side.
That is a flawed conclusion since as I pointed out the “after” and “therefore” do not support your conclusion. The correct conclusion is that Jesus fulfilled the glory that God had waiting for him since the before the creation of the world just like he has had a glory waiting for those that believe since before the same time.
I believe that the type of human being that Jesus became after the resurrection, is what we become after our resurrection, and what He was prior to His coming to earth.
I assume that our bodies after the resurrection will still have DNA, and if with our technology we have the capability to take DNA and clone someone, would not the designer of man be able to put that DNA into a sperm and just as Jesus appeared in a locked room, have that sperm appear in Mary's womb. And just as after our bodies are resurrected the essence of what makes us, us, will be rejoined to our bodies, so the essence of Jesus was within the child.
I do not believe He had any memory of His prior existence as memories are held within the physical body and the fetus would have no capacity to retain them. I'm sure as soon as He could understand what she was saying His mother told Him word for word what the angel had told her and took every opportunity to teach Him scripture. Combined with His nature and the leading of the Holy Spirit He acquired much wisdom and without our sin nature He was obedient in all things. This made Him 100% human in every way, while still having the nature of God.
And as He grew He made choices which at the end of our life is truly the only thing that defines us for eternity. After all what is knowledge or physical fitness worth in the light of eternity. It is our choices that will define us for eternity, knowledge helps us make the right choices and physical fitness allows us to carry them out, after all if you live long enough you will most likely lose both of these before you die anyway. And of course His final choice was to be obedient onto death.
So that is my opinion on the pre-existence of Jesus and even how I believe it may have come together. It's something to ponder, take it for what merits it may have, or at the very least have a good laugh over the crazy guy.
My opinion, Wm
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do4es it state anything about Jesus preexistence. In fact where is the word preexistence in scripture. In short you are determining Jesus preexists by conjecture and not because scripture teaches you that he does.. Please note that by conjecture I mean an inference based on incomplete evidence.
Let’s say for instance that “glory” means something conferring honor or renown. Your assumption is that an individual has to exist to receive from God and yet scripture contradicts you. As it states that the glory of believers was prepared for them before time began.
Could you pray just before you died, “glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”.I don't think so.
Do you tell people that you were in in very nature God or had divine nature, made yourself nothing, being made in human likeness. If you said this stuff, would you feel like you were lying?
Yet you teach that Jesus is just a man like us and in that case you demean these scriptures to mean nothing more than what can apply to us. So if that is the case, why don't you go around telling people that you had glory with God before the world began and that you had divine nature, emptied yourself and took on flesh and here you are. Because I never hear you guys making such claims for yourself even though you teach that such can be applied to any of us.
What gives?
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) In Hebrews 1:3 you miss the words “after” which means that he did not sit at the right hand of God before his death, resurrection and ascension
Not true. It is in your mind only.If I went home after work, it doesn't negate that I was at home yesterday. It only negates it if you have a belief beforehand that I was not at home yesterday.
The Word that was WITH God in the beginning became flesh and the disciples beheld his glory as the son of God.
Now compare that to Jesus existed with divine nature (form of God) emptied himself and took on flesh, and became a man, then humbled himself to the point of death.
See how both partook of flesh and then call it is coincidence if you like, but he has a particular name that is relevant, “The Word of God”.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.But like anything in life, if you don't like something, you can always wiggle out of it or justify to yourself why it is wrong. Not a good idea though.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
T8……..> you need to look at a Greek Text and read How it states ,Phil 2:6, You will not find (being or existed) past-tense there, you will find it rendered (WHO EXISTING) in the Nature or form of God, a present tense word, but even if you use your past-tense usage, we can easily deduce that was referring to after His Baptism in the Jordan and has nothing to do with a Preexistence Being before his earthly existence.
It is as Kerwin explained there is no word (PREEXISTENCE) used to describe Jesus, except in the (FOREKNOWLEDGE) OF GOD, THE SAME AS WE ARE. Scripture shows Jesus' Humility when he was tempted in the wilderness, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the word of GOD. No where does is say he had GOD Nature , before his existence on earth, that is just part of the false teachings of the apostate Church.
T8……The presumption by preexistences are false and deny both the work of Jesus as strictly a Human being as well as God Saving Power and ability to perfect us Humans, it is totally contrary to the message and purpose of the true Gospel, it dishonors both Jesus and GOD the FATHER.
T8……….Take some time and rethink the whole thing from a Gospel point of view and what God was Showing (US) with the life of Jesus for our eternal Hope. Jesus was exactly the same as us , in every way without (ANY) Exceptions , His life expressed GLORY TO GOD THE FATHER, NOT HIMSELF, it shows Us the POWER of GOD working (IN) us to perfect us (EXACTLY) AS HE DID IN CHRIST JESUS.
T8, PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR STAND ON THIS BROTHER.
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,00:39) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
t8,That person being spoken of IS Jesus Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit. NOT some immortal creature.
JESUS the MAN, who shed his blood for us IS the express image of his Father.
You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.
Jesus the MAN was given all powers and authority by God. Could you imagine what that would feel like?
Throughout history God has given men wisdom and authority to become powerful kings, those men take what has been given to them by God and turn it into their own glory, they turn and declare themselves as being a god.
Jesus the MAN was given greater wisdom and supernatural powers, and though he appeared as a man he felt within himself as a god, but unlike other men, Jesus declared that which was given to him came from God, and unlike other men he used what God gave him not to serve himself but to serve God and men.
You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,11:19) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,00:39) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
t8,That person being spoken of IS Jesus Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit. NOT some immortal creature.
JESUS the MAN, who shed his blood for us IS the express image of his Father.
You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.
Jesus the MAN was given all powers and authority by God. Could you imagine what that would feel like?
Throughout history God has given men wisdom and authority to become powerful kings, those men take what has been given to them by God and turn it into their own glory, they turn and declare themselves as being a god.
Jesus the MAN was given greater wisdom and supernatural powers, and though he appeared as a man he felt within himself as a god, but unlike other men, Jesus declared that which was given to him came from God, and unlike other men he used what God gave him not to serve himself but to serve God and men.
You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
JodiSo you are calling t8 a liar?
WJ
WJ………No one is calling T8 a Liar, we simply disagree with him on this . Why do you trinitarians try so hard to cause distentions among us.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,03:19) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2010,00:39) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2010,22:45) Where do you read that Jesus had divine nature.? Philippians 2:6 is speaking of godly nature which is why Philippians 2:5 states “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
t8,That person being spoken of IS Jesus Christ, the MAN anointed with God's Spirit. NOT some immortal creature.
JESUS the MAN, who shed his blood for us IS the express image of his Father.
You take the NAME of Christ and you change it's identity, PURE ANTICHRIST doctrine.
Jesus the MAN was given all powers and authority by God. Could you imagine what that would feel like?
Throughout history God has given men wisdom and authority to become powerful kings, those men take what has been given to them by God and turn it into their own glory, they turn and declare themselves as being a god.
Jesus the MAN was given greater wisdom and supernatural powers, and though he appeared as a man he felt within himself as a god, but unlike other men, Jesus declared that which was given to him came from God, and unlike other men he used what God gave him not to serve himself but to serve God and men.
You turn the greatness of Christ and you give his glory over to another creature, and thus you spew deceit out of your mouth IMO.
Jodi………Amen sis, you and Kerwin have rightly stated it. I wish T8 would just think about it more.peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
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