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Terrarica wrote:
Quote first you give you personal view on one verse,this is wrong,doing that make you ignore all the others.
If you are foolish enough actually believe that is my personal view then you have no idea who God is.
I utter strong words but that view point is based on the very characteristics of God. If you do not believe in those characteristics then your God is not the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, or Jesus.
1) God is righteous and does not lie.
2) God desires we be righteous as he is righteous.
3) God can do anything except evil.
So is God insincere and he does not mean it when he commands us to be righteous and he is righteous? I am confident you answer is God is sincere and he calls us to completely stop sinning.
Can God create a way for us to stop sinning? Once again since you know can do anything but evil I am sure you will state he can do so.
Did God state he would do so? That is where Matthew 5:6 and John 8:31-36 come in. What do you think righteousness means to God. What does really free of slavery to sin mean? I assure you that you not free if you still live in sin.
So God has the ability, the motive, the willingness, and he said he would do it.
Perhaps you wish to know the how. Does it not state in Galatians 5:16 that those who walk according to the ways of the spirit will not gratify the desires of this flesh, which is to say the world?
Even at Jesus' birth the angel told Joseph that Jesus had come to rescue the people from their sins even though Joseph was credited being a righteous man already, Matthew 1:21.
Paul speaks of this righteousness that is by faith and he is not speak of an illusionary righteousness but one that is truly like God's.
I write as I do because it is necessary to believe God's promise in order to receive God's promise and thus be filled with the spirit of righteousness. It is therefore my hope that all choose to believe God's promise through his Son and his prophets.
kerwin It looks like you too did not read the long post that I pasted from t8. He explains it so great and yet, its a lie to you and those that believe it believe in a different God? Which is absolutely ridiculous. These a Scriptures my friend, not mine or yours or anybodies. To denying them is going against Scriptures and not any Human being. I didn't write them, neither did you or anyone of us. It really makes me sad to say the least, that you and Gene just shrug them off like there nothing. When it says that He was with His Father before the world was, how else can you interpret that? When it says that He is the firstborn of all creation, how else can you interpret that? I believe in our Savior and our Heavenly Father and to say that those that believe in these Scriptures are believing in a false God, that makes me sad, because all I am doing is going by these Scriptures and not interpreting them in any other way. Also you or Gene have never even said what they mean….. just that they are not truth.
Clear cut, but false to you and Gene, so be it one day we will know…..
Peace and Love IreneIrene can you answer my question?
Show me ONE scripture that says an immortal spirit son came down from heaven and morphed himself into a human being?
I REFUSE to CHANGE the IDENTITY and MEANING of the NAME Jesus CHRIST!!
John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Irene, Jesus Christ CAME, an immortal spirit son DID NOT COME.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Irene you say that God SENT a spirit son, that is a flat out LIE. God SENT the person who He promised before time began, the MAN who'd be anointed with the Father's Spirit was SENT.
Irene can you admit that the scripture directly tells us that God SENT the MAN Jesus, that it directly states that it was the Son of MAN that came down from heaven?
Jesus, the man directly being said to come from heaven, means that Jesus the Messiah CAME FROM GOD.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
We see in the bible “The Kingdom of Heaven”, and we see “The Kingdom of God”. They mean the same thing because “of heaven” means “of God”. As well, “from heaven” means “FROM GOD”. Jesus Christ came from heaven, meaning Jesus our Messiah CAME FROM God.
Jesus Christ came down from heaven does not = an immortal spirit son morphed himself into an embryo.
JESUS CHRIST CAME FROM GOD!! The man born of the seed of David that was promised by the Father to one day come DID COME, making the Father's OWN WORDS that were spoken before time began become true in the flesh of Jesus.
1 John 1:5 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' ” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”
Jesus CAME after John but he is PREFERRED before John, making him BEFORE him according to his STATUS not according to birth. Christ is BEFORE ALL for he is our Eternal King, he is our Master and example and we follow AFTER him.
John's words have nothing to do with trying to teach that Jesus pre-existed. John's words are in relation to Jesus being the man of the promise of whom would save us, and be our leader.
1 Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
The MAN who died on the cross is the PERSON who IS the express image of God. He is the Son of God's love. There exists NOTHING in the above that is speaking of an immortal spirit son as being the son of God's love, or being the express image of God. As well, it is the man who was perfected through suffering that is firstborn over all creation.
Jesus Christ being firstborn over all creation does not = a spirit son was the first creature the Father ever created.
Why must people CHANGE the identity of Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is firstborn over all creation = the man who became our Messiah inherited Adam's birthrights, being given all authority over heaven and earth. For a younger son can be declared firstborn by his father if his father finds his eldest son not worthy.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight–
Once again the scriptures above are speaking of the man who BECAME our Christ and master, they are not speaking of a pre-existent immortal son. All things were made FOR the MAN who died on the cross, and for the man who would be resurrected having his FLESH not see corruption but go from corruptible mortal flesh to incorruptible immortal flesh.
Before time began the plan of eternal salvation for MAN was established, and it was IN the COMING of a MAN. All things were made through and for this MAN.
TRUTH is NOT established in changing the identity of the Son of God's love, Jesus Christ.
How about this verse in Rev 3?
14 “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”Arians/JW claim that Jesus was the first creation of God. This is the verse often quoted by Sis Irene here in this forum to prove Jesus' preexistence.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 15 2010,05:20) Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
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John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle
(apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.
Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods work
s.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?
This is the understanding of t8 and I agree with it.
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This is what t8 said about Jesus, IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 15 2010,05:27) Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,15:56) Quote (942767 @ May 31 2007,10:05) Hi: If God wanted us to know that Jesus pre-existed his Virgin birth he would have told us that he did. He is not the author of confusion. Any way what matters, is that He loves us and gave his life for us as shown clearly in the scriptures so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he lives forever more to make intercession for us, and that by his shed blood we have forgiveness for sin.
God Bless
Hi 94.First off, we know that Christ is a hidden mystery that is revealed in the last days. So the clear teaching you speak of is perhaps not in order, rather a revelation of this.
Romans 16:25-27
25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him
27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.But there are many scriptures that teach he did or demonstrate that he did. These seem to be applicable to a mystery being revealed.
For a list of some of the more compelling revelations of Christ, go here:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htmI believe that Christ existed in heaven in glory with God before emptying himself of his glory and becoming a humble man. I also believe that he returned to the same glory he had before with God.
It is these and other scriptures that clinch it for me.
Also, where is it written that he didn't pre-exist? If you say that it should be a clear teaching, where is the clear teaching that says that he existed for the first time ever in the womb of Mary?
Here again t8
and thisQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 15 2010,16:59) How about this verse in Rev 3?
14 “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”Arians/JW claim that Jesus was the first creation of God. This is the verse often quoted by Sis Irene here in this forum to prove Jesus' preexistence.
Not only Irene but t8 an others that believe like t8 does….Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God
JESUS CHRIST is the beginning of the New Creation, the MAN who washed our sins in his blood is the MAN that is the beginning, and is the person WHO IS the True Witness.
Revelation 3 speaks nothing of some spirit son being the beginning of creation, and nor does it say anything about a spirit son becoming a human being.
Very wrong to change the identity and meaning of the person who IS the Faithful Witness, which was the MAN resurrected from the dead, NOT some pre-existing NO NAME immortal spirit son.
John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Jesus is declared as the Christ, the Lamb of God, the Son of Man. No scripture sets out to explain Jesus an immortal spirit son who existed before heaven and earth. Even before Abraham was born a savior was promised to come. Jesus can rightly say that “I am him, the savior that the God of your fathers had promised.”
John 1:23 He said: “I am 'The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Make straight the way of the Lord,” ' as the prophet Isaiah said.”
John said “I am” and it was in reference to him being the one called by God to prepare the way for Christ.
Jesus said,
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
No scripture states that Jesus is or was an immortal spirit son that was the first creature ever created by God.
Jesus set out to declare that he was the CHRIST, he never declares himself as pre-existing. He declares that he indeed is the promised Messiah.
John 4:25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Jesus is the ROOT of David because he is given David's Kingdom, and David, like the rest of us, shall follow after the commands of Jesus. Though Jesus came after David being born of his seed, Jesus is before David in that, it is Jesus who sits at the right hand of God.
hi Jodi
i do not know why you are blind to the other scriptures,that T8 and georg showed you ?are those scriptures not in your bible ??
is your truth only appear in your mind to justify your personal believes ??
terraricca………….And all the scriptures Jodi are not in your or Irene and T8.s Bible. They certainly are it Just your false assumption of what they are saying trips your up. Jodi, has accurately post the truth , rather you and they believe it or Not. Non Of You can even Produce (ONE) Scripture that Says Jesus Preexisted HIS Berth on earth as a Being of any kind. Just suppositions you have acquired from false religions of this world. Not so much as (ONE) Specific statement in scriptures shows you or them right. Show us (ONE) scripture to prove your points, and what was his name, or what did he do, and why did not He mention any of His past life anywhere in scripture if He preexisted his Berth on earth, surely if you believe that he did you could produce the proof clearly. Twisting and forcing the text to make it come out the way you want is not what we are supposed to do.
Not to mention what point would it be for GOD to do it the way you think, what would that prove to US?, God does thing with purpose and Logical reason , He is perfecting Man Kind , not so preexisting Morphed Person, as you false teachers teach. IMO
Quote Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
The Father exists with the Power of Wisdom. Wisdom was used to create heaven and earth as well as to educate man. The Old Testament does not reflect that men received wisdom through an immortal spirit son. Such an idea is shown to be incorrect.
Exodus 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Ephesians 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
YLT Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me?
Nehemiah 9: 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Psalms 134:3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.
Psalms 146:5-6 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works. 6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts : and I will declare thy greatness
The Scriptures Bible Translation Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Acts 4:24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
Acts 14:15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
YHWH ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and He did so through His own wisdom which is a Power of His Spirit.
Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. 21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.
Proverbs 2:2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints.
Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding; 14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her. 19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; 20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes– Keep sound wisdom and discretion;
Solomon poetically speaks of YHWH”S Spirit of wisdom as a she. In the beginning YHWH created heaven and earth through His own Spirit of which contains extraordinary wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hill
s, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”YHWH’s OWN wisdom was His delight. The bible clearly teaches that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth. He accomplished His creation through being Elohiym, the God who exists with Powers. There is no scriptural base that points to YHWH’s Spirit of wisdom, of which Solomon poetically refers to as a she, as being a pre-existent Jesus.
Psalms 102:21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”
YHWH ALONE through His Spirit of Wisdom laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. YHWH always endures, His Spirit is Eternal Life. YHWH does not grow old and YHWH does not change, and neither do His promises change. We have confidence that they indeed become fulfilled. Though we grow old and die, we have been promised to be changed from mortal to immortal. This change has been fulfilled through our belief in Jesus Christ, who is the firstborn of the dead, and the firstborn of many brethren.
The SON who is the image of God is directly shown to be the man who died on the cross. This man was known before time began as the man that would one day fulfill the Father’s Promise of Eternal Life. All of creation was made FOR and because of this MAN. Scripture does not reflect that some spirit son helped create heaven and earth. What we are being told is that Jesus, the anointed human being, was the person through whom YHWH created heaven and earth for. Through the coming Christ heaven and earth was made.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?Verses 10-12 represent the author speaking of YHWH, quoting directly from David in Psalms 102. Putting verses 10-12 in quotations to elude that the text is God speaking to Jesus should be easily scene as false. Not only is it a direct quotation of David speaking about YHWH, but as well we know for a fact that Jesus DID age on earth, and that his years could fail him, and after he died he was CHANGED from mortal to immortal. Through the Father's Spirit Jesus was changed, and we too will be changed.
There exists no true scriptural base that says a pre-existent no name immortal spirit son created heaven and earth or helped create heaven and earth. On the contrary as shown, our Heavenly Father ALONE created heaven and earth through His Powers. He created heaven and earth for and by His foreknowledge of the coming Christ. The Father created heaven and earth for the eternal righteous MAN.
Jodi
this is one of your lies;The Old Testament does not reflect that men received wisdom through an immortal spirit son. Such an idea is shown to be incorrect.
1Ki 4:29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.
1Ki 4:30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt.unless GOD IS MORTEL YOU ARE – NOT SAYING THE TRUTH.
JUST LIKE YOU LOOKING NOT FOR TRUTH.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2010,04:15) Jodi this is one of your lies;The Old Testament does not reflect that men received wisdom through an immortal spirit son. Such an idea is shown to be incorrect.
1Ki 4:29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.
1Ki 4:30 Solomon’s wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt.unless GOD IS MORTEL YOU ARE – NOT SAYING THE TRUTH.
JUST LIKE YOU LOOKING NOT FOR TRUTH.
Huh?I said, “The Old Testament does not reflect that men received wisdom through an immortal spirit son. Such an idea is shown to be incorrect.”
Men receive wisdom, as did Solomon and Jesus, from the Spirit of the FATHER.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 13 2010,20:12) Irene, I find the idea of preexistence contradicts the idea of an immaculate conception as well as the idea that Jesus is full human as we are. I also am convinced it is necessary to believe the later in order for the promise of the spirit of righteousness to become complete in a person.
KerwinDo you understand what “immaculate conception” is?
Blessings WJ
Jodi
it seems your are stuck on your views ,this will prevent you of seeing gods plan ,no matter what we show you,
and understanding does not comes by words only but through the spirit of Christ in the scriptures.this is not in my power to give ,it is Christ power and God,
there is however a truth ,that lies and truth can not live together,by that i mean false and true teachings.
we as individual are responsible for our action ,ether we lessen to someone else or we follow our own way,
everything is done before God who will judge us all.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2010,10:08) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2010,20:55) Kerwin first you have respond with scriptures to IRENE quote and scriptures this make your idea a men made one,as well as the spirit of it .
for your information;the gospel = the plan of God = Christ reason to be as sacrifice=preexistence of Christ is the accomplishment of God s love ,
so it would be nice it you could document your r
Are you doubting that God promised righteousness?That is what living according to the ways of the spirit of righteousness accomplishes. The promise is explicitly made in Matthew 5:6 and we are often called live it in full.
Are doubting that Jesus is a human being just like us even though we are told he was tempted even as we are but without sin in Hebrews 4:15?
When you support preexistence you support a teaching that states otherwise.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2010,10:08) Are doubting that Jesus is a human being just like us even though we are told he was tempted even as we are but without sin in Hebrews 4:15?
KerwinThats is exactly why Jesus was “not like us in everyway” because he was/is the “Second Adam” who was without sin.
Only the Lord from heaven who was not of this world could condemn sin in the flesh and abolish death in the flesh and become our righteousness!
No mere man could do this. If you say that he did it because he had the Spirit of the God in him, then why do those who have the Spirit in them still sin? Why are not men walking around in this earth today sinless like Jesus was?
Blessings WJ
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