Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 12 2010,17:47)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23) Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again? This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response! WJ I went back all the way to page 349 were we are having a debate, read it.  I addressed you and thinker because I found some other Scriptures in my Husbands Book and gave them to you both.  You came back and said:” Why are you against me.  I answered that on the same page.   Then terraricca said something like you doing thinks like that since you have a Dr. in read it yourself.  I am very disappointed in you,  I even said that I liked you as a person.  Well I am changing my mind.  Unless you can come up with a proof, I will never say anything to you again……

Irene

I porobably ignored your post because I have reponded to you more than once.

You don't have to like me, that is your choice. But please don't act like you always address post and that you have proven the Trinity wrong, for that is merely opinion on you part for the Trinitarian view has been around since the early Apostles and Forefathers!

Blessings WJ

[KangarooJack]

Irene said:

Quote

W.J. Show me, because I will never ignore others.  but when I put up a scripture and they ignore it, I do the same…. So don't be to quick to judge me..BTW  look at the post that Jodi made, She just puts other Scriptures up that has nothing to do with this subject…. probably is no prove show me were I did that, and I will apologize.   .Irene

Irene,
I agree with you about Jodi. She is all over the place with scriptures that are not relevant to the scriptures that others post. She uses the “pretexting” method.

thinker

[kerwin]

Irene,

I find the idea of preexistence contradicts the idea of an immaculate conception as well as the idea that Jesus is full human as we are. I also am convinced it is necessary to believe the later in order for the promise of the spirit of righteousness to become complete in a person.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 14 2010,12:12)

Irene, I find  the idea of preexistence contradicts the idea of an immaculate conception as well as the idea that Jesus is full human as we are.   I also am convinced it is necessary to believe the later in order for the promise of the spirit of righteousness to become complete in a person.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar.
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was. If that glory was just in God's plan then He went back to that plan, is that what you want me to believe? We do know that Jesus is now a Spirit Being, and that is what He Jesus said He was before the World was.”
Also in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.” That Word became flesh in verse 14.
In Rev. 19:134 it says this
“He was clothed with a rob dipped in blood, and His name is the Word of God..
verse 16 And He has on His rob and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Who is called that> I think Jesus and I know you know too it is Jesus.
Along with the other Scriptures about Jesus being the firstborn of all creation, if you denying it, you are denying Scripture. Especially John 17:5
There is also a Scripture that says that He emptied Himself and became flesh. I will have to find it, of hand I don't remember were it is.
Irene

[terraricca]

Irene

good post ,and there are many more scriptures ,it always amazes me why people do not let the scriptures spirit answer their questions.

[kerwin]

Irene and Terrarica,

I claim that those who believe in preexistence misunderstand scripture as they are not looking at it from the correct point of view.  

It is the message of gospel that is important and we know that Jesus promised that those that hunger and thirst to be like God it true righteousness and holiness will obtain that goal.  

Since we know that is true we also know any teaching that is an obstacle to obtaining that goal is a false teaching because God does not contradict himself.

I am convinced that the tenet of preexistence is such an obstacle and Jesus would not place such an obstacle in front of those seeking God.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

first you have respond with scriptures to IRENE quote and scriptures this make your idea a men made one,as well as the spirit of it .

for your information;the gospel = the plan of God = Christ reason to be as sacrifice=preexistence of Christ is the accomplishment of God s love ,

so it would be nice it you could document your r

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2010,20:55)

Kerwin first you have respond with scriptures to IRENE quote and scriptures this make your idea a men made one,as well as the spirit of it . for your information;the gospel = the plan of God = Christ reason to be as sacrifice=preexistence of Christ is the accomplishment of God s love , so it would be nice it you could document your r

Are you doubting that God promised righteousness?

That is what living according to the ways of the spirit of righteousness accomplishes.  The promise is explicitly made in Matthew 5:6 and we are often called live it in full.

Are doubting that Jesus is a human being just like us even though we are told he was tempted even as we are but without sin in Hebrews 4:15?

When you support preexistence you support a teaching that states otherwise.

[terraricca]

Kerwin;
first you give you personal view on one verse,this is wrong,doing that make you ignore all the others.
if you can not see in those verses the plan of God ,read it again.

Mt 5:2 and he began to teach them, saying:
Mt 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Mt 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Mt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Mt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Mt 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Mt 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you

the same with this scriptures ,you right he was a men like us ,but you can read what Paul says ,he is the son of God, the bible teaches he was the word, and he was in heaven,you are make opinion not truth.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Heb 5:1 Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……….Preexistence is as big a lie as any told , Why did Peter say He was (FORORDAINED) (but) WAS manifested IN OUR TIME. Surely Peter would have Know if Jesus preexisted his berth , Why would He have not simpley said Jesus (Preexisted as some kind of being) before he was manifested on earth then. Why does (NO) apostle or Jessu himself address His preexistent Life on earth or heaven . Surely such an important Point would not have went unspoken of. I have yet to see one scripture the (SPICIFICELY) SAYS JESUS (PREEXISTED) HIS BERTH AS SOME KIND OF BEING.

Kerwin and Jodi are right, It absolutely would not fit the plan or Character of GOD to Kill a Perfect Preexistent (Angel) or (BEING) and Kill Him and then Have Him Killed again. The would prove nothing to the human race at all. Common sense should tell you that, how much more the Spirit of TRUTH. The TRINITY AND PREEXISTENCE are hooked together and are simply teachings of the False APOSTATE CHURCH.

God took a simply (ORDINARY MAN) Born from the roots of King David, protected him until, His seed, being recieved into him at the Jordan, when He was baptized, That was the day He was Begotten as a son of GOD “You are my son, (This day) i have begotten you” the voice said.

Now lets ask why would GOD do it that way, the answer is easy , because this give Hope to us (ORDINARY) Humans , Just like he was , we have a picture of what GOD can DO (IN) US (ALSO), Why because we do not push Jesus' likeness away from our ourselves , by giving Him special advantages that would prevent our (EXACT) IDENTITY WITH HIM.

The teachings of the false Pagan Churches have alway believed in Man GOD'S and inter breeding between There gods and there women, Pagan thoughts flooded into the True Church shortly after the death of the apostles it twisted and distorted our texts in some places, But those who have the Spirit of Truth in them can see through these Lies, while the rest are simply blinded to it. some have came (PART) way out of the MYSTERY HARLOT RELIGION, But not (ALL) the way Out and are suffering by those Pleagues of false understanding.

Using Scriptures that (complete denies other scriptures) is What Preexistences do, they say Jesus as some kind of being (created everything) But Many Scriptures say (GOD ACTED ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) so how do you reconcile these, You must deny one or the other . Jesus never once said He created anything, in fact Jesus never ever did a miracle, nor has anyone else for that matter, Because no one but GOD the FATHER HIMSELF can DO (ANY) Miracle . Jesus never said He preexisted in any other form , In fact when He returns He still will be in Human form and still will be called (SON) of MAN.

Jodi, Kerwin, Adam, Myself, and others have given (many many many) Scriptures and Logical understandings to show that (NO) Preexistence of Jesus existed outside of the (PLAN) and FOREORDAINED PURPOSE OF GOD TO prefect human Kind THROUGH a ORDINARY HUMAN BEING. The glory Jesus had was Knowing He was to be the (FIRST) Human being to be raised from the grave and given eternal life. It was GOD plan all along from the foundations of the earth to perfect Human Kind Jesus recieved the Honor of being the First ordinary human to achieve that goal.

The day is far spent, it is time to come to the truth and dump (ALL) the false teachings of the APOSTATE CHURCH,” Come out of Her my people , that you recieve Not of Her Plagues”. Her plagues are all about deceptions and Phobia's false teaching about devils and demons and the like. Most have no idea of the depth of those false teaching and the effect it has had on their thinking. IMO

peace and love to you all………………gene

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 15 2010,04:43)

To All……….Preexistence is as big a lie as any told , Why did Peter say He was (FORORDAINED) (but) WAS manifested IN OUR TIME.  Surely Peter would have Know if Jesus preexisted his berth , Why would He have not simpley said Jesus (Preexisted as some kind of being) before he was manifested on earth then. Why does (NO) apostle or Jessu himself address His preexistent Life on earth or heaven . Surely such an important Point would not have went unspoken of. I have yet to see one scripture the (SPICIFICELY) SAYS JESUS (PREEXISTED) HIS BERTH AS SOME KIND OF BEING. Kerwin and Jodi are right, It absolutely would not fit the plan or Character of GOD to Kill a Perfect Preexistent (Angel) or (BEING) and Kill Him and then Have Him Killed again. The would prove nothing to the human race at all. Common sense should tell you that, how much more the Spirit of TRUTH.  The TRINITY AND PREEXISTENCE are hooked together and are simply teachings of the False APOSTATE CHURCH. God took a simply (ORDINARY MAN) Born from the roots of King David, protected him until, His seed, being recieved into him at the Jordan, when He was baptized, That was the day He was Begotten as a son of GOD “You are my son, (This day) i have begotten you” the voice said. Now lets ask why would GOD do it that way, the answer is easy , because this give Hope to us (ORDINARY) Humans , Just like he was , we have a picture of what GOD can DO (IN) US (ALSO), Why because we do not push Jesus' likeness away from our ourselves , by giving Him special advantages that would prevent our (EXACT) IDENTITY WITH HIM. The teachings of the false Pagan Churches have alway believed in Man GOD'S and inter breeding between There gods and there women, Pagan thoughts flooded into the True Church shortly after the death of the apostles it twisted and distorted our texts in some places, But those who have the Spirit of Truth in them can see through these Lies, while the rest are simply blinded to it. some have came (PART) way out of the MYSTERY HARLOT RELIGION, But not (ALL) the way Out and are suffering by those Pleagues of false understanding. Using Scriptures that (complete denies other scriptures) is What Preexistences do, they say Jesus as some kind of being (created everything) But Many Scriptures say (GOD ACTED ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) so how do you reconcile these, You must deny one or the other . Jesus never once said He created anything, in fact Jesus never ever did a miracle, nor has anyone else for that matter, Because no one but GOD the FATHER HIMSELF can DO (ANY) Miracle .  Jesus never said He preexisted in any other form , In fact when He returns He still will be in Human form and still will be called (SON) of MAN. Jodi, Kerwin, Adam, Myself, and others have given (many many  many) Scriptures and Logical understandings to show that (NO) Preexistence of Jesus existed outside of the (PLAN) and FOREORDAINED PURPOSE OF GOD TO prefect human Kind THROUGH a ORDINARY HUMAN BEING. The glory Jesus had was Knowing He was to be the (FIRST) Human being to be raised from the grave and given eternal life. It was GOD plan all along from the foundations of the earth to perfect Human Kind Jesus recieved the Honor of being the First ordinary human to achieve that goal. The day is far spent, it is time to come to the truth and dump (ALL) the false teachings of the APOSTATE CHURCH,” Come out of Her my people , that you recieve Not of Her Plagues”. Her plagues are all about deceptions and Phobia's false teaching about devils and demons and the like. Most have no idea of the depth of those false teaching and the effect it has had on their thinking. IMO peace and love to you all………………gene

You are calling Jesus a big lie? John 17:5 tells you that He was in the beginning with His Father before the world was. And you and kerwin deny that? I am beginning to believe that Satan which you don't believe is real, has done a good job on you. To deny that many Scriptures makes me wonder what kind of a Christians you are to deny my Savior and King of Kings and Lords of Lords. Read if you care in Rev. 19:13.
Goes right along with John 1:1, Jesus own Brother.
Georg is telling me to stop answering you two because you will never admit that you are wrong, and will continue to deny those Scriptures. I am going back and find t8 post….

[terraricca]

all

gene say;To All……….Preexistence is as big a lie as any told , Why did Peter say He was (FORORDAINED) (but) WAS manifested IN

WHAT “GENE ” SAYS IS NOT TRUTH OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES ,HE QUOTED PETER PARTIAL VERSE,

AND BASE IS VERSION OF EVENS TO HIS PERSONAL EMOTION,AND TWISTED MIND ,WHAT KIND OF MAN IS SOMEONE WHO TELLS THAT JESUS IS A LIAR ,TELLS THAT YOU CAN NOT TRUST THE SCRIPTURES,THIS IS NOT OF GOD OUR FATHER.

THEY BELIEVE TO BECOME EQUAL TO CHRIST BY TELLING HE IS A LIAR.THIS BEATS ME.

[Elizabeth]

Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
——————————————————————————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.  

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God somet
hing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
So
me say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?

This is the understanding of t8 and I agree with it.
——————————————————————————–

Got a Question? Post it in the forums

Home – Salvation – Questions – Writings – Prophecy – Visions

[Elizabeth]

Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,15:56)

Quote (942767 @ May 31 2007,10:05) Hi: If God wanted us to know that Jesus pre-existed his Virgin birth he would have told us that he did.  He is not the author of confusion.  Any way what matters, is that He loves us and gave his life for us as shown clearly in the scriptures so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he lives forever more to make intercession for us, and that by his shed blood we have forgiveness for sin. God Bless Hi 94. First off, we know that Christ is a hidden mystery that is revealed in the last days. So the clear teaching you speak of is perhaps not in order, rather a revelation of this. Romans 16:25-27 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. But there are many scriptures that teach he did or demonstrate that he did. These seem to be applicable to a mystery being revealed. For a list of some of the more compelling revelations of Christ, go here: https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm I believe that Christ existed in heaven in glory with God before emptying himself of his glory and becoming a humble man. I also believe that he returned to the same glory he had before with God. It is these and other scriptures that clinch it for me. Also, where is it written that he didn't pre-exist? If you say that it should be a clear teaching, where is the clear teaching that says that he existed for the first time ever in the womb of Mary?

Here again t8

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene…… Where does John say (JESUS) was in the beginning with the Father as a (PREEXISTING) BEING OF SOME KIND. Pleas show scripture THAT SAYS THAT (SPECIFICALLY), Not some forced text, the does not (SPECIFICALLY) say that. Irene you can just slightly tweak a scripture or force the text just slightly and make it say what in fact it does not actually say, that is what Trinitarians do, Preexistences do the same thing. Irene Jesus did not preexist His Berth here on earth, except in the plan and WILL of GOD, Just as we also were.
Where have i said i don't believe in Satans , I just don't believe it is ONE Being going around jumping in and out of People. I do believe in an (ADVERSARIAL SPIRIT) existing in People as was in PETER and JUDAS, and the Pharisees.

Irene we all have been taught (MANY) false teaching from the APOSTATE CHURCHES, we (ALL) need to come OUT of them IMO.

PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND GEORG………………………….gene

[Elizabeth]

Now if you still don't believe then we will have to wait until Jesus comes back again…….
Study, study, study the subject and stop listening to Satan, because He does not want you to believe the truth…… I know you are saying now visa verso……..But I gave you many Scriptures that you deny……..
Irene

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 15 2010,05:27)

Irene…… Where does John say (JESUS) was in the beginning with the Father as a (PREEXISTING) BEING OF SOME KIND. Pleas show scripture THAT SAYS THAT (SPECIFICALLY), Not some forced text, the does not (SPECIFICALLY) say that. Irene you can just slightly tweak a scripture or force the text just slightly and make it say what in fact it does not actually say, that is what Trinitarians do, Preexistences do the same thing.  Irene Jesus did not preexist His Berth here on earth, except in the plan and WILL of GOD, Just as we also were. Where have i said i don't believe in Satans , I just don't believe it is ONE Being going around jumping in and out of People. I do believe in an (ADVERSARIAL SPIRIT) existing in People as was in PETER and JUDAS, and the Pharisees.   Irene we all have been taught (MANY) false teaching from the APOSTATE CHURCHES, we (ALL) need to come OUT of them IMO. PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND GEORG………………………….gene

Gene You could not have possibly read all that t8 has said…
why, are you so set in your ways that you don't care what any body says?

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….Now you are suggesting Jesus was the (WISDOM) (an attribute) of GOD, why not just say He is A GOD, you believe He created everything, you believe he is the wisdom of GOD, You believe John 1:1 is speaking of Jesus Himself being the Word of GOD , Please tell me what is the difference between you and the TRINITARIANS, YOU both are changing what is written and denying GOD'S Word that He (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) CREATED EVERYTHING> You are forcing the text to fit your belief system , things like the US means GOD and JESUS, and in the beginning was the (WORD) meaning (JESUS) instead of GOD event though it says the WORD (WAS) GOD. Not to mention Hundreds of scripture that show contrary of what you are saying. You make the term (firstborn) of all creation, to mean first ever created into existence, when in fact it means the (Firstborn from the creation , the word (OF) is the SAME as (FROM), like the man of GOD is the same as the Man from GOD. These concepts in you were gained by your prier assoications with the FALSE CHURCHES , and are not founded in the TRUTH of GOD. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg………………gene

[terraricca]

gene

if you can not see it ,you may not have what it takes to see it???
and Jesus was a man like us this is true,but his spirit was the word,so he was living among us ,in a human form,and wen he died he was transform back in what he was before the WORD ,

this part of Gods plan from the beginning.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 15 2010,05:50)

Irene……….Now you are suggesting Jesus was the (WISDOM) (an attribute) of GOD, why not just say He is A GOD, you believe He created everything, you believe he is the wisdom of GOD, You believe John 1:1 is speaking of Jesus Himself being the Word of GOD , Please tell me what is the difference between you and the TRINITARIANS, YOU both are changing what is written and denying GOD'S Word that He (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) CREATED EVERYTHING>  You are forcing the text to fit your belief system , things like the US means GOD and JESUS, and in the beginning was the (WORD) meaning (JESUS) instead of GOD event though it says the WORD (WAS) GOD. Not to mention Hundreds of scripture that show contrary of what you are saying. You make the term (firstborn) of all creation, to mean first ever created into existence, when in fact it means the (Firstborn from the creation , the word (OF) is the SAME as (FROM), like the man of GOD is the same as the Man from GOD. These concepts in you were gained by your prier assoications with the FALSE CHURCHES , and are not founded in the TRUTH of GOD.  IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………gene

See you did not read it, because it is t8's post, that I copied and pasted, and take it up with Scriptures not me, I am done, you just do not have an open mind at all. I was there were you are too at one time, good luck, Irene

[Author]

Posts