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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 01 2010,01:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 31 2010,10:04) Hi brothers Kerwin and Terraricca,
Who is believing lies will be revealed when the true Messiah will appear on scene. He will put stop to all lies. You seem to judge brothers by your allegations. That is not fair.Please take care
Adam
Some of what you are repeating is clearly not true. You seem to have a tendency to swallow what some Jews state while discounting anything that disagrees. I do not know why this is but it is not healthy.The bottom line is God commands his people to be righteous as he is righteous. Jesus teaches us that God does not leave us alone to accomplish that but has provided a way though obeying all of Jesus' teachings.
Many false teachers want to make people feel good about themselves even though they continue to disobey God and so they tell them what amounts to “you can go on sinning and God will not demand your life”. Some will also tell them whatever is needed to control their hearers, Other false teachers may be driven by other evil desires.
You have to to watch yourself that you too do not fall into error.
So brother Kerwin,
I swallow a lot of what the Holy Nation believes that gives more credit than following heresies of Hellenistic Christianity. See for your self how the Christian doctrines differ. Jesus came and preached only to Jews not to any gentile except Gospel writers put words in Jesus' mouth. Our brother Chosenone is right here. He often brings out such truth in this forum. Paul is the inventer of Christianity a new religion entirely different from Judaism. Take for example of preexistence of Jesus, our sister Irene says it is there and you say it is not there. Which is correct my brother?
Christianity made mess of many things for which there is no conclusion arrived so far in this forum.
Don't you think there is problem in our religion?Please think over with open mind.
AdamQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 01 2010,12:56) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,20:23) Hi Sis Irene,
Good morning to you. Believing in Jesus is only according to our Christian scriptures not according to any Hebrew scriptures. Once you know that Jesus is not God there end the matter you need not depend on any man to reach God. God is directly available to any one who sincerely approach Him. No Jew requires a mediator to approach God.
Adam! I want to say something else to you. First there is no trinity. Prove is
Deut. 4:35
Deut. 6:4 1 Corinth. 8:4
Ephesians 4:6
And by Jesus own words in John 14:28 …. My Father is greater then I.
The trinity doctrine is a man made doctrine and not of God. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian that came up with it. The first Christians were tortured and killed the first three century and it was Constantine who put an end to it. But He changed the Sabbath worship to Sunday. Also we do not go by God's Calendar, but the Roman. We don't keep any of the Holy Days listed in Lev. 23. But I also have proven to myself that the Sabbath is a sign between God and the Children of Israel. Exodus 31:16-17 and the Old Covenant in Exodus 34:27-28.
The Jewish people of today are not the Jewish people of the first century. Many did become Christians. But not all. here is a Scripture in Rev. that states that those that call them self Jewish are not at all, and I am not saying anything else about that. Read it yourself and search it out.You say that in the Hebrew Jesus is not the Messiah, yet you never give us any Scripture that proves that.
In Isaiah it talks about Jesus many times. So some have said that He is not mentioned in the Old Test. which is not so.
Then some will say because I believe in the preexisting of Jesus, I should believe in the trinity. Wrong, the one has nothing to do with the other.
As far as not coming in the Believers section, yes. If you do not believe in Jesus you do not have the Father either. Kejonnn had to leave and that is so, so should you be treated differently? If you don't believe in Jesus , you should not be aloud to be in the Believers section, that would only be fair to Kejonn. Also there is Scriptures that state that Jesus is God.
Hebrew 1:8 and John 1:1 But when we understand that He is the Son of God and God is a title we should not have any problems with the word God. You say no Jew needs a Mediator to approach God. You do know that they have to have a High Priest to approach God don't you? He offers up the Sacrifice for their Sins. We don't have to do that. We go through Jesus to ask for the forgiveness of our Sins our self, we don't need a High Priest, Jesus is. There is a big difference here. In one of the posts you make the statement that you are so fed up with us. And I responded to leave and go to the Jews if you like them better. I still say that. The Jew's killed my Savior and they will not admit that. Also I know some Jewish People and we used to have a Jewish Bakery and the Rabbi is the Boss. Don't do anything that is not Kosher. Even using a S.O.S. Pad to clean is wrong. I know all about their practises and I do not agree with their practices.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Sis Irene,
You say that I am no more considered as a believer. I want to ask you what is the definition of a believer, whether it is about believing in God or not?
If yes I am already a strong believer of one and only God. How can you nullify this truth. As I have already told Christianity made mess of every thing about God which was so clear in Hebrew scriptures that there is no God but One. What is this Father/Son/Holy Spirit zimmic? Please understand God from a orthodox Jewish point of view you will not be confused about God any more.Love and peace
AdamGollamundi wrote:
Quote Christianity made mess of many things for which there is no conclusion arrived so far in this forum.
This is what Jesus is said to have taught.
Matthew 24:10-14(NIV) reads:
Quote At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Now you seem disappointed because what he states is true even on this board.
It is correct that many appear to seek God but you and I are deceived by appearances while God is not. If you truly seek the truth then at the proper time God will reveal it to you but if you are not then he will hide it from you.
As an example I will point to the Pharisees who practiced the forms of righteousness while not truly being righteous. God addresses such individuals in the Old Testament by stating they worship him with their mouths while their heart is far from him.
As another example I ask you to consider those who saw David Koresh, a cult leader, as the Anointed One.
We are taught about such individuals with these words:
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12(NIV) reads:
Quote The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
These are hard but true words.
Psalms 102:21To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Hebrews 1:10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
VERSES 10-12 are NOT talking about Jesus but about the Father, as it should be obvious given the fact that Jesus did indeed DIE and CHANGE. As well, verses 10-12 are from Psalms 102 which is specifically speaking of YHWH.
YHWH is the Father's name and the Father does not change, Jesus however did change, he went from a mortal man to an immortal man.
Jodi…….Absolutely right, Jesus' body was changed from a mortal one to an immortal one , he went to heaven in that body and will return to earth in it also. He is no spirit existing without (FLESH AND BONE) floating around some where, but a Man with a SOUL containing a SPIRIT and A BODY. exactly as he said, “For a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see i have” this is what went up into heaven and this is what will come down from heaven. Jesus is a SOUL, containing both a body and the Spirit of life in that body. IMO
jodi
so Christ pre existence does not exist ??
he say he came down from heaven and wen he die he will return to the place he was before,
he just came to accomplish his fathers taskHi terrarica,
John 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”….13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
The SON of MAN came down from heaven, in other words the SON of MAN came from God. NO scripture says that a spirit son came down from heaven and morphed into a human being.
The GLORY that is IN Jesus is that of a MAN having immortality. This glory existed with God in His WORDS, where He promised eternal life to man, before time began. Prior to the death of Jesus, he asked God to give him that glory that was promised from the beginning.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended”–what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Having been perfected and raised from the dead, Jesus BECAME the heavenly Man, and we too shall become heavenly!!
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Jesus the MAN born of Mary fulfilled the promise that was from the beginning, which was eternal life for human beings.
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
God brought life back into Jesus fleshly body. The flesh of Jesus did not see corruption it was changed from flesh that could deteriorate and die to flesh that is incorruptible.
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Jesus is an immortal human being who's genes come from David.
Acts 13:30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
A MAN was raised from the dead, and it is by a MAN that we have forgiveness. This MAN is returning to finish his Father's work.
No scripture states that some spirit son gave up immortality, became a human being to die for us, and then went back to being what he was before.
Christ is NOT Christ because he pre-existed as some other being. The greatness of Christ has NOTHING to do with him pre-existing as some other being, but everything to do with him becoming the perfect man.
The measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; is in being a PERFECT MAN!
To ALL……..The preexistence doctrine is just as deceptive as The Doctrine of the TRINITY, It works to disconnect and seperate our (EXACT) likeness of Jesus by making him appear different then us. It serves to sever our true relationship to HIM as a TRUE brother of OURS, by giving Him preexistence status and superhuman or a Spirit Being existence of some kind. GOD did not take a preexistence being, He took a human being from the loins of seed of DAVID and perfected HIM and raised Him from the dead and gave him eternal life, this indeed is the glory Jesus was speaking of, a glory FOREORDAINED BY GOD THE FATHER AND ALSO CAN BE OUR GLORY TO. God's plan all along was to save mankind and Jesus is the first to achieve this glory.
GOD did (NOT) Kill a preexistent Being rebirth Him and have him Killed again. That would be completely uncharacteristic of HIM and would serve (NO) logical purpose for any other HUMAN BEING.
Jodi has rightly explained it IMO. peace and love to you all…………………………..gene
gene
no ,Jesus became Christ because no one on the planet could supply the equivalent sacrifice for the live Adam trow out by is sin,
God s say he took his right harm to do it ,this is the WORD of God ,his only begotten son.
you are following your own philosophy taking after the devil.
further more not all of the righteous will go to heaven only 144000 will go,
God does not see dead the way you see it ,you do not understand the scriptures,
your views are non biblical,they only are in “GENE TRANSLETION” and so is DETERMINISM
I ENCOURAGE ALL TO CHECK OUT THE MEANING OF DETERMINISM.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 03 2010,20:35) Gollamundi wrote: Quote Christianity made mess of many things for which there is no conclusion arrived so far in this forum.
This is what Jesus is said to have taught.
Matthew 24:10-14(NIV) reads:
Quote At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Now you seem disappointed because what he states is true even on this board.
It is correct that many appear to seek God but you and I are deceived by appearances while God is not. If you truly seek the truth then at the proper time God will reveal it to you but if you are not then he will hide it from you.
As an example I will point to the Pharisees who practiced the forms of righteousness while not truly being righteous. God addresses such individuals in the Old Testament by stating they worship him with their mouths while their heart is far from him.
As another example I ask you to consider those who saw David Koresh, a cult leader, as the Anointed One.
We are taught about such individuals with these words:
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12(NIV) reads:
Quote The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
These are hard but true words.
There is no disappointment with true scriptures. But when human mind make lot of biased doctrines people will be frustrated instead of encouragement. Only people with blind faith can follow such man-made doctrines. Don't think that by quoting verses from the Bible will nullify truth seekers' honest arguments.Peace to you
Adamgoll
you quote scriptures who do not show who are those who teaches false doctrines is the trinitarians you talk about
gollamudi wrote:
Quote There is no disappointment with true scriptures. But when human mind make lot of biased doctrines people will be frustrated instead of encouragement. Only people with blind faith can follow such man-made doctrines. Don't think that by quoting verses from the Bible will nullify truth seekers' honest arguments.
What does your reply have to do with what I stated?
I was explaining why there are many conflicting tenants in the Judeo-Christian community. To be more explicit my explanation even covers Islam and any other branches of the one true religion.
Hi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word for “come” is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
WJ
i took this phrase from your quote;To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!that is good;doyou believe that
terraricca……….All trinitarians believe Jesus Preexisted, like you do, But Jesus never said He preexisted His Berth as a live being or that he ever created anything . Jesus only relates to the fact that He was (FOREORDAINED). Peter said it right Jesus was FOREORDAINED but was MANIFESTED (brought into existence) in our time. No one can even give (ONE) good answer for GOD KILLING a perfect preexistent Being and then have HIM Killed again. No one can even give any reason for GOD to do that, what would that prove to any human being, By GOD taking an already (PERFECT) Being and having Him walk perfectly and then Kill him. He would (NOT) really be ONE of US not a true Human Being as we are, so what would be GOD'S POINT.
But if GOD took an exact HUMAN Being, exactly like us in every way without any exceptions and perfected Him and raised Him from the dead, now that would show us all something of the Saving POWER of GOD . I have never seen any scripture where Jesus or the apostles have said Jesus was LIVE as a Preexistent Being before his berth. Trying to force text to make it come out that way does not work.IMO
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