Preexistence

[terraricca]

hi goll
you have to walk by faith, and only follow the bible 66 book and learn to read it with your heart not next door influence,and be aware of the false interpretations,

let the bible steak for it self ,it is the word of God i know.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,16:58)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,12:29) Adam……..You are like a SON to me, and with all my heart i tell you Beware OF the “leaven OF THE JEW'S”.  I have been in their synagogues and debated with them about Jesus as being the Messiah , with their Rabbis, they rejected Jesus and GOD rejected them. And cast them out of their land as He did ISREAL also. Make a study of the seventy week Prophesy of DANIEL. and don't let them tell you they really don't understand  it, as a excuse to deny Jesus' Messiah-ship . Look Herod and everyone else who existed at the time of Jesus knew it was the time of the Messiah when he came into existence. Even the apostle said come as see the one MOSES and the prophets was Talking about.  God the FATHER has given us many and Great wittiness attesting to Jesus' Messiah-ship.  Remember those who have not the son have not the FATHER who Sent him either. The Jew's as a whole have rejected Jesus as the Christ, and GOD have rejected them also, until they repent and repent they will. Now when i say the Jews, I do not mean (ALL) Jews there is a few who do accept Jesus as the Messiah.We have some here like Con and Ashermoshs, and i know other also.   Adam just because some scriptures have be miss translated and falsely transcribed does not mean all are. You already had the basic understanding of the truth , so don't get drug down is some little stick points and go ship wreck. Stay with the Basic of the Doctrines of Christ as spoken BY Jesus and the apostles, The Spirit of GOD will reveal any discrepancies that may be there, but don't throw out the baby with the wash. IMO With love and great concern………………….your older brother in Christ Jesus our LORD…………..gene Hi brother Gene, I know you will be very much concerned about my recent posts. I appreciate your concern as a spiritual father to me. But I am really fed up with these unending debates on trinity and preexistence. You know brother once you don't accept the  divinity of Jesus or the preexistence there is nothing left for Christianity except to say that Jesus was the Messiah even for that there is always negative trend for proving Jesus as Messiah among the theologians. No significant prophecy of Messiah had been fulfilled by Jesus except we say that he will fulfill all of them during his second coming. According to Jewish belief no second coming of Messiah had been foreseen in the Hebrew scriptures. Whatever the proof we have is only from our N.T which the Jewish scholors negate as authentic. So where do we see the proof for Jesus beiing the Messiah as of now. Christianity always blaming the Jews for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah can we really prove to them that Jesus is Messiah as of now. I am really in great dilemma. If you can't accept the basic creed of Christianity we don't have any thing in between except to accept what the Jews believe about their God. I find it more realiable than even beleiving the interpretations of non-trinitarians who give only half-truth not full. I mean when you beleive that God of the Israel is the one God and Jews don't need for any mediator to reach that one God, where is the question of believing Jesus for the earning personal salvation. No Hebrew scripture states that Jews have to believe Messiah or pray to him to achieve their salvation. Once you leave basic creed of Christianity I mean the belief in Jesus as God or about his preexistence I think there is no inbetween path except to embrace the original religion of Abraham, Isaac and Israel stating that Yahweh is one God and there is no mediator required to reach Him. A Jew pray to his God without any mediatorship. so where is the question of Jesus' mediatorship is required for to reach God? I see there are many holes in our Christianity when I study it critically. Hope you will understand me and pray for me to be oriented towards the truth not to any man made creeds. I am also thankful to Sis Irene for her concern for me. Thanks and love to you Adam

Adam! If you are so feed up with everything why do you come here and want to tell us that our Savior is not our Messiah. You know that the Jewish People at the time of Jesus are the ones that wanted Jesus dead. But that is not what they want to acknowledge whatsoever. There are some Jew's that did become Christians and they will never go against Jesus. Our Heavenly Father Himself said this is my begotten Son. In the first century Christians died by the Millions. First by the hands of the Romans and then by the hands of the Catholic Church. They did not believe in the Trinity and worshipped God the Father with all their Hearts and Souls.
Gene has told you to make a study about the seventy weeks of the prophecy in Daniel. If I were You I would do so.

It was after almost three centuries of bloody and brutal persecution that the Roman Emperor Constantine Issued an edit granting all Christians full freedom to practice their religion.
In A.D. 321 He issued an edit forbidding work on Sunday, and making it the day of worship.
In A.D. 324 He established Christianity as the official religion of His empire. It will become known as the Roman Universal Church.
There is a lot more in Ancient History, but these facts are the most important one.
No one worshiped Jesus then. They only worshiped our Heavenly Father. And that is what my Husband and I have been doing too since 1985 when we left the Catholic Church. Mainstream Christianity however believes in the trinity and in vain do they worship. Math. 15:9
God our Heavenly Father Himself at the Baptism of Jesus said of Jesus He is my only begotten Son.
I have really not done a whole study on this, however I do know that Jesus is our Messiah, whether the Jew's believe it or not. Like I said before some do. Satan is trying His hardest to take people out of believing in Christ. He is our Savior and Mediator. We who don't believe in the trinity worship our Heavenly Father and believe in Faith that we will be saved.
You and Mandy need to really pray about all of this. There is so much error in those Articles you believe in. And there are a few errors in the New Test. also, but most is true and prove all. When there are more then 2-3 Scriptures that are the same that is right as far as I am concerned. Good luck to you……
In Peace and Love Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Irene,
I appreciate your response on my post. But I want to ask you whether you are able to convince brothers like WJ and Thethinker about your beliefs mentioned above? No

Then where is the question of me not coming and sharing my beliefs here?
I find no one doctrine could be finally proved by any which was accepted by all. I find there are lot of holes in Christian doctrine which could not clear my doubts therefore I want to lean towards the original religion of Bible that is the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. By doing that am I cut off from God?

Please think over
Adam

[Elizabeth]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,19:26)

Hi Sis Irene, I appreciate your response on my post. But I want to ask you whether you are able to convince brothers like WJ and Thethinker about your beliefs mentioned above? No Then where is the question of me not coming and sharing my beliefs here? I find no one doctrine could be finally proved by any which was accepted by all. I find there are lot of holes in Christian doctrine which could not clear my doubts therefore I want to lean towards the original religion of Bible that is the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. By doing that am I cut off from God? Please think over Adam

Adam No you are not cut of from God completely however if you don't believe in Jesus you don't have the Father either.
That is what I mean that it is dangerous to do. Of hand I forgot the Scripture that says that. It is early in the morning here and I have to look that Scripture up for you IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IT. We worship the God of Issac, and Joseph to because We don't believe in the trinity either. They are our ForeFathers. But you can't and should not make that your priority. It should be God and God the Father only that you worship. Our Salvation does not depends on Isaac and Joseph etc. but on our Savior who died for us. That is what you have to go back to believing. I agree with you that the Father deserves worship only…… But Jesus deserves honor as a King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Irene,
Good morning to you. Believing in Jesus is only according to our Christian scriptures not according to any Hebrew scriptures. Once you know that Jesus is not God there end the matter you need not depend on any man to reach God. God is directly available to any one who sincerely approach Him. No Jew requires a mediator to approach God.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,20:23)

Hi Sis Irene, Good morning to you. Believing in Jesus is only according to our Christian scriptures not according to any Hebrew scriptures. Once you know that Jesus is not God there end the matter you need not depend on any man to reach God. God is directly available to any one who sincerely approach Him. No Jew requires a mediator to approach God.

If that would be so why did Scripture say that if you don't have Jesus you don't have the Father.  Jesus was not just a mere man.  He is God's Son and He knew what God wanted Him to do.  He was chosen for that purpose to die for us so we can have eternal life.  It is pretty sad that you deny that.  Jesus did preexisted before His birth here on earth.  I have given many Scriptures in my previous post.  If you care read it.
Hebrew 1:5 ” You are my Son today I have begotten you”
And again
I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son'
verse 8  But to the Son He said “Your Throne O God is forever and ever, A scepter of your Kingdom.
verse 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.  Therefore God, Your God has anointed You with oil of gladness  more then Your companions.
But remember that God is a title and the Father has a name and so does the Son.  It just shows us that Jesus is second in command sort to speak.
Adam I have to leave now, talk to you later.  
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……Remember Moses said . the Lord will raise up from among you brethren a (PROPHET) like unto me , unto (HIM) Shall you heed. Now you are saying we do not need a mediator , but yet GOD has alway use one, Moses was a Mediator between GOD and Israel so were the priests of GOD. GOD has alway us a mediator in his dealings with man, rather it be a Prophet, a strong leader, or a Miracle worker and many times all of the above. In fact why are the Jews still looking for one if one is not needed. While we can individual take our request to GOD through Prayer, that does not eliminate GOD from using Mediators as He has through out history. You have become discouraged by all this bickering going on here i can understand that, i to get discouraged at times to. Adam beware of the Leavening of the JEW'S brother they were rejected for rejecting Jesus , I implore you not to makes the same mistake as they have.

with much love and worry …………..Your brother in Christ Jesus……………gene

[gollamudi]

Thanks again to you brother Gene,
The mediatorship I meant was about invoking Jesus' name in our prayer and the necessity of believing in Jesus for salvation/eternal life. No Jew believed such necessity for achieving personal salvation. Here are few of my observations on my studies:

1. I find our N.T is fully of referrences to Jesus' uniqueness as more than Messiah which Hebrew scriptures don't support.
2. I find a number of referrences to Jesus' equality with God in terms of Salvation/performing miracles/provider which Jewish scriptures don't support.
3. I find the concept of (Holy)Spirit is entirely different from Jewish scriptures which support only the impersonal spirit of God.
4. There is more confusion on the role of Holy Spirit in N.T in terms of definition for example using “the Spirit of Jesus” in similar terms with “Spirit of God” for which there is no support in Jewish scriptures.
5. I find the role of Jesus is alleged even for creation of God which Hebrew scriptures don't support.
6. I find nature of preexistence of Jesus was more literal as per John's Gospel as well as per Paul's statements in Col 1:12-15, Cori 8:6 which no Hebrew scripture supports.
7. I find the proof of Jesus being Jewish Messiah is more weak in terms of his fulfilling major prophecies of Hebrew scriptures.
8. I find lot of contradictions than hormony in Christian theology.
9. I find the doctrine of trinity is more appropriate for a christian than any of the non-trinitarian doctrines including Unitarianism which could not give me full explanation on their allegations .
10. I find Jesus was not the founder of Christianity, a new religion which has taken its roots from Judaism but more contribution goes to st Paul.
Here I conclude with these.

I will come up with more clear and detailed findings in future.
Hope you will also see truth in my arguments.
Love and peace to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……….We Know the so called “Christianity” is full of contradictions especially sense the Apostate Churches started , the true Christian religion taught by Jesus and the Apostles has been corrupted by these false doctrines of the TRINITY AND PREEXISTENCES and others. But to turn to those who reject Jesus completely and adopt their view is very dangerous brother. Remember it say (NARROW) is the way and (FEW) there be that Find IT, and that is speaking to Christians, much less those who completely reject Jesus' message as most of the Jew's do. IMO

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,02:30)

Adam……….We Know the so called “Christianity” is full of contradictions especially sense the Apostate Churches started , the true Christian religion taught by Jesus and the Apostles has been corrupted by these false doctrines of the TRINITY AND PREEXISTENCES  and others. But to turn to those who reject Jesus completely and adopt their view is very dangerous brother.  Remember it say (NARROW) is the way and (FEW) there be that Find IT, and that is speaking to Christians,  much less those who completely reject Jesus' message as most of the Jew's do. IMO

Gene You mention Preexisting to Adam for being wrong, yet you have not looked at the Scriptures that tell me otherwise, have you? If you did you can't explain what they mean, other then what they do mean. What Adam is saying about not having to have a Mediator is a bunch of nonsense and I tried to to tell Him too. Do you remember Kejonnn being rejected from the believers section. Guess what Adam should be too. It makes Me rather upset to come here to tell us about Jesus being a false Prophet. It has no merit what soever. It is obvious to me He cares less what we tell him, he has made up his mind and that's it.
Peace and Love Irene

[terraricca]

hi goll

their is no contradiction in the scriptures for the righteous one ,the spirit is whats connects not the letter.we walk by faith.
so the righteous know were to connect and the unrighteous do not .

this is why it says they have ears and ear not have eyes and do not see so that there heart can not understand and be health

[gollamudi]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 24 2010,04:46)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,02:30) Adam……….We Know the so called “Christianity” is full of contradictions especially sense the Apostate Churches started , the true Christian religion taught by Jesus and the Apostles has been corrupted by these false doctrines of the TRINITY AND PREEXISTENCES  and others. But to turn to those who reject Jesus completely and adopt their view is very dangerous brother.  Remember it say (NARROW) is the way and (FEW) there be that Find IT, and that is speaking to Christians,  much less those who completely reject Jesus' message as most of the Jew's do. IMO Gene     You mention Preexisting to Adam for being wrong, yet you have not looked at the Scriptures that tell me otherwise, have you?   If you did you can't explain what they mean, other then what they do mean.  What Adam is saying about not having to have a Mediator is a bunch of nonsense and I tried to to tell Him too.  Do you remember Kejonnn being rejected from the believers section.  Guess what Adam should be too.  It makes Me rather upset to come here to tell us about Jesus being a false Prophet.  It has no merit what soever.  It is obvious to me He cares less what we tell him, he has made up his mind and that's it. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Sis Irene,
you are having every right to reject me as your Christian brother. I only came here to find the truth not that I am not aware of Christian beliefs. I was a trinitarian and I remain as trinitarian till today. That doesn't mean I should accept every thing with eyes closed. I find the arguments of non-trinitarians could not convince me so far in full. They only give half truth. See my findings as I narrated above in my post.

I now see Christianity from Jewish perspectives. Not that I have already become a Jew. As a gentile I don't need to become a Jew. I find Jewish faith far better than Christian confused creeds. For example as a non-trinitarian you don't accept what our brother Gene believes. I find utter confusion in Christianity then why should I stick to such man-made religion?

Hope you will see truth in my arguments.
Adam

[terraricca]

hi goll
no one will convince you that you have to do for yourself,the Jews at Christ for 3 1/2 years at the end they kill him ,did they learn anything a few yes but the majority no.
no difference today, tomorrow ,unless people apply themselves to change to do what is in Christ nothing will change.

[gollamudi]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2010,21:35)

hi goll no one will convince you that you have to do for yourself,the Jews at Christ for 3 1/2 years at the end they kill him ,did they learn anything a few yes but the majority no. no difference today, tomorrow ,unless people apply themselves to change to do what is in Christ nothing will change.

Hi brother terraricca,
I don't get what you have told about Jews. I don't think we should also become so anti-semitic to blame Jews for Jesus' killing. I think you are not fully aware of Jewish polemics on Christianity. No Christian could face their allegations on Christianity. Jesus could not fulfill major Messianic requirements what the Jewish Bible demands. Christianity can only escape by taking the refuse of second coming of Jesus.

Hope you will see the truth from otherside.
Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

GM

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,09:31)

9. I find the doctrine of trinity is more appropriate for a christian than any of the non-trinitarian doctrines including Unitarianism which could not give me full explanation on their allegations .

What you say here is true! The Trinitarian view takes the whole council of God found in the NT scriptures in view!

Thank you for your honesty!

I pray that you will see that the NT does not contradict the Hebrew scriptures!

Blessings WJ

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2010,04:36)

GM Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 23 2010,09:31) 9. I find the doctrine of trinity is more appropriate for a christian than any of the non-trinitarian doctrines including Unitarianism which could not give me full explanation on their allegations . What you say here is true! The Trinitarian view takes the whole council of God found in the NT scriptures in view! Thank you for your honesty! I pray that you will see that the NT does not contradict the Hebrew scriptures! Blessings WJ

Thank you very much for such appreciation brother WJ. But it doesn't stop me to see truth from otherside.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,10:56)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 21 2010,07:02) YHWH exists with the Power of Wisdom. Wisdom was used to create heaven and earth as well as to educate man. Exodus 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship, 1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Ephesians 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore. Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.   Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; YLT Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me? Nehemiah 9: 6  Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth. Psalms 134:3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.   Psalms 146:5-6 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works. 6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts : and I will declare thy greatness The Scriptures Bible Translation Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth. Acts 4:24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' Acts 14:15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. YHWH ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and He did so through His own wisdom which is a Power of His Spirit. Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. 21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. Proverbs 2:2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints. Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding; 14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her. 19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; 20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes– Keep sound wisdom and discretion; Solomon poetically speaks of YHWH”S Spirit of wisdom as a she. In the beginning YHWH created heaven and earth through His own Spirit of which contains extraordinary wisdom. Proverbs 8:22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.” YHWH’s OWN wisdom was His delight. The bible clearly teaches that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth. He accomplished His creation through being Elohiym, the God who exists with Powers. There is no scriptural base that points to YHWH’s Spirit of wisdom, of which Solomon poetically refers to as a she, as being a pre-existent Jesus. Psalms 102:21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.” YHWH ALONE through His Spirit of Wisdom laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. YHWH always endures, His Spirit is Eternal Life. YHWH does not grow old and YHWH does not change, and neither do His promises change. We have confidence that they indeed become fulfilled. Though we grow old and die, we have been promised to be changed from mortal to immortal. This change has been fulfilled through our belief in Jesus Christ, who is the firstborn of the dead, and the firstborn of many brethren.   The SON who is the image of God is directly shown to be the man who died on the cross. This man was known before time began as the man that would one day fulfill the Father’s Promise of Eternal Life. All of creation was made FOR and because of this MAN. Scripture does not reflect that some spirit son helped create heaven and earth. What we are being told is that Jesus, the anointed human being, was the person through whom YHWH created heaven and earth for. Through the coming Christ, heaven and earth was made. Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” 7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? Verses 10-12 represent the author speaking of YHWH, quoting directly from David in Psalms 102. Putting verses 10-12 in quotations to elude that the text is God speaking to Jesus should be easily scene as false. Not only is it a direct quotation of David speaking about YHWH, but as well we know for a fact that Jesus DID age on earth, and that his years could fail him, and after he died he was changed from mortal to immortal. There exists no true scriptural base that says Jesus created heaven and earth or helped create heaven and earth. On the contrary as shown, our Heavenly Father ALONE created heaven and earth through His Powers. He created heaven and earth for and by His foreknowledge of the coming Christ. YHWH created heaven and earth for the eternal righteous MAN. No scripture states that a spirit son was created before all of creation and was called God's firstborn son. Adam was the first man that was created. Luke 3 calls him the son of God. The earth was given to Adam by the Father to rule over and subdue it. Adam was the firstborn son, who was given authority over all creation. When Adam sinned however and brought death, he lost his position as firstborn son. Deuteromy 21:15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, 16 then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. 1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright; Genesis 48:17 Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will bless, saying, 'May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!' ” And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh. 21 Then Israel said to Joseph, “Behold, I am dying, but God will be with you and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22 Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow.” YHWH has done the same with Jesus putting him BEFORE Adam, giving Jesus the inheritance and the rights of the firstborn. Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Jesus was APPOINTED heir of all things through his actions AS A MAN. This appointing makes him the rightful firstborn overall creation. Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Once again scripture shows that it is the MAN who died on the cross who is the image of the invisible God, not some pre-existing spirit son. This MAN is the firstborn over all creation, meaning that He has all authority and rulership over all creation. YHWH SET Jesus BEFORE Adam giving him the NAME and the rights of firstborn son. Irene did you by chance read the above post of which speaks of God's Wisdom? It shows through clear cut scripture that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth, and He did so through His very own Spirit of Wisdom, which is just ONE of His many awesome Powers. If you or Georg would be kind enough to show me how I am wrong in the above post that would be much appreciated. Peace to you and Georg,   Jodi

Jodi Lee,

Your reasoning is circular. The new testament explains the old testament. According to the Father Himself it was the Son who created all things (Hebrews 1:8-10). Therefore, Jesus is God.

thinker

[terraricca]

TT

because my father give me the money to buy my car it is my fathers car ,were you get those weird ideas

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 27 2010,22:21)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2010,21:35) hi goll no one will convince you that you have to do for yourself,the Jews at Christ for 3 1/2 years at the end they kill him ,did they learn anything a few yes but the majority no. no difference today, tomorrow ,unless people apply themselves to change to do what is in Christ nothing will change. Hi brother terraricca, I don't get what you have told about Jews. I don't think we should also become so anti-semitic to blame Jews for Jesus' killing. I think you are not fully aware of Jewish polemics on Christianity. No Christian could face their allegations on Christianity. Jesus could not fulfill major Messianic requirements what the Jewish Bible demands. Christianity can only escape by taking the refuse of second coming of Jesus. Hope you will see the truth from otherside. Adam

So you choose to believe lies.  That is your choice and the result is on your head.

[terraricca]

goll

like i say your brothers in the trinity will support you but not Christ nor his father,your father is someone else.

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