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Jodi……..Good Post Sis. If only people could see the harm the Doctrine of The TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE of Jesus does to destory the work of GOD.
peace and love to you and your Jodi…………………….gene
Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 20 2010,21:03) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 20 2010,16:13) No brother Thethinker, John Knox was also Trinitarian. you are wrong.
Adam! I don't believe in the trinity to say this first, however I do believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.John 1:1
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17And by Jesus own words He said this in
John 17:5″And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which i had with You before the world was.”Go back and look at some of the posts that t8 has made. He has a very good understanding of the Scriptures. I do agree that some Scriptures have been added, but when you have more then one on the same subject then IMO it is true.
Peace and Love Irene
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Scripture directly tells us that Jesus did NOT speak to us BEFORE his birth. Before his birth God SPOKE through the prophets NOT through some spirit son.
WHAT WAS THE WORD that existed in the beginning?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Acts 13:23 this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
The WORD that was in the beginning was a PROMISE. This PROMISE became FLESH!
Irene, show me ONE scripture that says a spirit son was sent to become a human being?
Scripture directly tells us that a MAN of whom was promised before time began WAS SENT.
Do you believe that Jesus pre-existed as a MAN Irene?
Irene……..I wish you would reconsider you position on the preexistence of Jesus , He did (NOT) preexist his Berth, the only thing that did was the Plan of GOD to raise up a perfected MAN, which he did do and raised HIM From the dead and gave him eternal life. In Jesus we see what The Power of GOD can Perform . Jesus was to demonstrate (GOD The FATHERS) Plan Purpose and POWER. Give Glory for Jesus to God the FATHER, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. Can't you see it was Gods plan all alone to Perfect mankind and He started with Jesus the (firstborn) from the dead of many brethren. Jesus is exactly like we are in every way without exception and what GOD did (IN) Jesus he can also do in US. And as He gave Jesus eternal life He can also give us eternal, isn't this our HOPE that what GOD did for Jesus He can also do for US. That our Faith may always be in GOD the FATHERS POWER, to create Us to be exactly like Jesus.
peace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
hi gene
Group: Regular Members
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Joined: Feb. 2009 Posted: Jan. 22 2010,04:17——————————————————————————–
Irene……..I wish you would reconsider you position on the preexistence of Jesus , He did (NOT) preexist his Berth, the only thing that did was the Plan of GOD to raise up a perfected MAN, which he did do and raised HIM From the dead and gave him eternal life. In Jesus we see what The Power of GOD can Perform . Jesus was to demonstrate (GOD The FATHERS) Plan Purpose and POWER. Give Glory for Jesus to God the FATHER, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. Can't you see it was Gods plan all alone to Perfect mankind and He started with Jesus the (firstborn) from the dead of many brethren. Jesus is exactly like we are in every way without exception and what GOD did (IN) Jesus he can also do in US. And as He gave Jesus eternal life He can also give us eternal, isn't this our HOPE that what GOD did for Jesus He can also do for US. \\ That our Faith may always be in GOD the FATHERS POWER, to create Us to be exactly like Jesus. //this should be compered to this scripture ;Ge 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said
Ge 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evilpeace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
i think this look similar no
?Terraricca………Is that all you can do is go around and accuse people here, that smells like YOU KNOW WHO, if you ask me.
John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
The glory is eternal life FOR HUMAN BEINGS!
1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Acts 2:3 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
The glory Jesus received was IMMORTALITY in HUMAN FLESH!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption……….49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Acts 13:35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
Jesus being the MAN of the Promise is a work by God to bring us to have faith in Him. For if we believe that Jesus was the man promised in the beginning that would one day be sent to bring immortality, then we know and believe that YHWH fulfills His promises.
1 Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
He who was foreordained was NOT some immortal spirit son, but the MAN Jesus who was promised to be sent. Our FAITH is to be directly placed in the belief that Jesus was the MAN of the promise that YHWH made before time began.
There is NO faith in YHWH that was to be built upon believing that God sent some immortal spirit son to save us, NONE whatsoever.
gene
this is not personal i do not know you as a person ,so i see what you written and the though in it ,since i am allergic to what seems not scriptural so i respond ,i do believe you like the truth just like i do, so you can see my point ,to honor the word of God
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,04:17) Irene……..I wish you would reconsider you position on the preexistence of Jesus , He did (NOT) preexist his Berth, the only thing that did was the Plan of GOD to raise up a perfected MAN, which he did do and raised HIM From the dead and gave him eternal life. In Jesus we see what The Power of GOD can Perform . Jesus was to demonstrate (GOD The FATHERS) Plan Purpose and POWER. Give Glory for Jesus to God the FATHER, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. Can't you see it was Gods plan all alone to Perfect mankind and He started with Jesus the (firstborn) from the dead of many brethren. Jesus is exactly like we are in every way without exception and what GOD did (IN) Jesus he can also do in US. And as He gave Jesus eternal life He can also give us eternal, isn't this our HOPE that what GOD did for Jesus He can also do for US. That our Faith may always be in GOD the FATHERS POWER, to create Us to be exactly like Jesus. peace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
Gene and Jodi! I go by Scriptures and not what you both or anybody else wants Me to believe. I have given you and Jodi those Scriptures and you don't see it? That is not my fault.
Here are they again
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17
verse 18 will tell you that He also was the firstborn of the death that He may have preeminence, meaning first in all.You gave me that Scripture, but ignore verse 15-17
John 17:5 by Jesus own words. “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
That is not just the plan of God, is it?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
verse 17″For God send His Son not into the world to condemn the World…….
So where did God send His Son from.
John 1:1 The Word was in the beginning with God …..We know that it is Jesus because of verse 14
And the Word became flesh.Rev.19:13″And He was clothed with a venture dipped in Blood and His name is the Word of God.” It was the Father power and the Son that created the World and Humans. It says Us and Our. And since Jesus was the Spoken Word of God it was both the Father and the Son.
This shows us that He was the Word in the beginning with God the Father. And He came to do the will of the Father.
The plan of God cannot become flesh, can it?
Also which you and others think it is Wisdom speaking, but even t8 thinks it is Jesus too, and I agree.
Proverbs 8:22-30
Gene, I have put all of these Scriptures for you down before. Do me a favor and really study these and don't just shake your head and stay in the unbelief of this Scriptures.
It reminds me of myself because I did not want to believe this either. However God did not lieve me in that unbelief.
All this also takes nothing away from the power of our Heavenly Father. He will always be above all.1 Corinth. 11:3 “
The Head of man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God.”Why don't you also look at the Post that t8 made somewhere on this Tread.
There are just to many Scriptures to ignore all this for me,prove all things, and I did.
1 Thess. 5:21Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 22 2010,05:01) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,04:17) Irene……..I wish you would reconsider you position on the preexistence of Jesus , He did (NOT) preexist his Berth, the only thing that did was the Plan of GOD to raise up a perfected MAN, which he did do and raised HIM From the dead and gave him eternal life. In Jesus we see what The Power of GOD can Perform . Jesus was to demonstrate (GOD The FATHERS) Plan Purpose and POWER. Give Glory for Jesus to God the FATHER, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. Can't you see it was Gods plan all alone to Perfect mankind and He started with Jesus the (firstborn) from the dead of many brethren. Jesus is exactly like we are in every way without exception and what GOD did (IN) Jesus he can also do in US. And as He gave Jesus eternal life He can also give us eternal, isn't this our HOPE that what GOD did for Jesus He can also do for US. That our Faith may always be in GOD the FATHERS POWER, to create Us to be exactly like Jesus. peace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
Gene and Jodi! I go by Scriptures and not what you both or anybody else wants Me to believe. I have given you and Jodi those Scriptures and you don't see it? That is not my fault.
Here are they again
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17
verse 18 will tell you that He also was the firstborn of the death that He may have preeminence, meaning first in all.You gave me that Scripture, but ignore verse 15-17
John 17:5 by Jesus own words. “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
That is not just the plan of God, is it?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
verse 17″For God send His Son not into the world to condemn the World…….
So where did God send His Son from.
John 1:1 The Word was in the beginning with God …..We know that it is Jesus because of verse 14
And the Word became flesh.Rev.19:13″And He was clothed with a venture dipped in Blood and His name is the Word of God.” It was the Father power and the Son that created the World and Humans. It says Us and Our. And since Jesus was the Spoken Word of God it was both the Father and the Son.
This shows us that He was the Word in the beginning with God the Father. And He came to do the will of the Father.
The plan of God cannot become flesh, can it?
Also which you and others think it is Wisdom speaking, but even t8 thinks it is Jesus too, and I agree.
Proverbs 8:22-30
Gene, I have put all of these Scriptures for you down before. Do me a favor and really study these and don't just shake your head and stay in the unbelief of this Scriptures.
It reminds me of myself because I did not want to believe this either. However God did not lieve me in that unbelief.
All this also takes nothing away from the power of our Heavenly Father. He will always be above all.1 Corinth. 11:3 “
The Head of man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God.”Why don't you also look at the Post that t8 made somewhere on this Tread.
There are just to many Scriptures to ignore all this for me,prove all things, and I did.
1 Thess. 5:21Peace and Love Irene
Irene,I asked you to give me ONE scripture that says that God SENT a spirit son. Can you do that? I am unaware that any such scripture exists.
What does exist is the FACT that scripture says that God SENT Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not a spirit son, he is the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit, or would you like to deny that Jesus came in the flesh?
Does God's PROMISE MEAN ANYTHING to you Irene?
God promised to SEND a MAN, NOT a spirit son to become a man.
Your doctrine has you in delusions IMO, for you cannot SEE that the scripture CLEARLY states that it is JESUS CHRIST.
Apparently you are unaware that JESUS CHRIST represents the MAN born of MARY who was anointed by the Holy spirit. You see his name and you DENY ALL that it means and represents. You see his name and apply it to a false being.
If Jesus Christ is said to be the firstborn over all creation, and we know that Jesus Christ represents the MAN born of Mary, then we should OBVIOUSLY understand that he is said to be firstborn over all creation in relation to being placed BEFORE Adam, taking over Adam's BIRTHRIGHT, for Jesus Christ was APPOINTED HEIR of all things.
It is SIMPLE,
the scripture says Jesus Christ was sent, not a spirit son was sent.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation, not a spirit son was firstborn over all creation. Scripture tells us SPECIFICALLY that a father has the right to declare a younger son as firstborn. What scripture never states is that there existed a spirit son who was firstborn over all creation and that son became a human being.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, not a spirit son. Nowhere does scripture state that God's only begotten son was an immortal spirit being that later became a human.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ was the brightness of God's glory and the express image of His person, not a spirit son. The MAN who died on the cross and was raised from the dead, was the glory of God, NOT some immortal spirit being.
the scriptures says that the world was created through and for Jesus Christ. I'll ask you again Irene WHO in the name of YHWH IS Jesus Christ? NO scripture exists that says God created heaven and earth by and for an immortal spirit son.
1Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
In the beginning existed the PROMISE of eternal life, as well before time began that eternal life was promised to come in a MAN who would be anointed with the Holy Spirit.
The glory Jesus was waiting for was eternal life, the glory that Jesus was waiting for was that his corruptible flesh would not see corruption but would be changed into incorruptible flesh. This glory we are directly told from scripture existed before time began in a PROMISE.
Irene please show me ONE scripture that says the glory Jesus had in the beginning with God was in him being some immortal spirit creature.
Jesus Christ is the man anointed with the Holy Spirit. Before time began God promised that He would send this man. This promise existed as God's WORD did it not Irene? This promise was fulfilled when Jesus was born and carried out the will of God, was it not? In the flesh of Jesus the WORD of God was fulfilled. What was once God's word, became real. I don't get why that is so hard for you to understand?
Irene I do NOT ignore the following,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
You turn the identity of the “HE” in the above over to a FASLE BEING. The “HE”, is the
MAN who died on the cross.The verse right before clearly identifies who the “HE” is 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The person who is in the image of the invisible God is the MAN Jesus, not some immortal spirit being. For by the MAN who shed his blood on the cross were all things created. The MAN who denied his flesh and followed the will of the Father, is before all things, meaning He is the heir and ruler of the Kingdom of the Father.
Can you not realize the DAMAGE your doctrine creates, when you change the MEANING and PERSON of Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ behaved exemplifying the character of God. We are to do likewise, and know that we can because Jesus the MAN is our inspiration. However if it was not Jesus but some immortal spirit son that was the image of God, then that creates a huge separation between us and Jesus and between us and God. Did Jesus accomplish what he accomplished because God's Spirit was working in a man, or because Jesus was also a pre-existing spirit son?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 21 2010,07:02) YHWH exists with the Power of Wisdom. Wisdom was used to create heaven and earth as well as to educate man. Exodus 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Ephesians 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore.
Jeremiah 51:14-15 YHWH of hosts has sworn by Himself, “I shall certainly fill you with men, as with locusts, and they shall lift up a shout against you.” He made the earth by His power, He established the world by His wisdom, and stretched out the heavens by His understanding.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
YLT Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me?
Nehemiah 9: 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalms 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
Pslams 124:8 Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Psalms 134:3 The LORD that made heaven and earth bless thee out of Zion.
Psalms 146:5-6 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works. 6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts : and I will declare thy greatness
The Scriptures Bible Translation Isaiah 37:16 O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Yisrael, the One who dwells between the kerubim, You are Elohim, You alone, of all the reigns of the earth. You have made the heavens and earth.
Acts 4:24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
Acts 14:15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
YHWH ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and He did so through His own wisdom which is a Power of His Spirit.
Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. 21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.
Proverbs 2:2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints.
Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding; 14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her. 19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; 20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes– Keep sound wisdom and discretion;
Solomon poetically speaks of YHWH”S Spirit of wisdom as a she. In the beginning YHWH created heaven and earth through His own Spirit of which contains extraordinary wisdom.
Proverbs 8:22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”
YHWH’s OWN wisdom was His delight. The bible clearly teaches that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth. He accomplished His creation through being Elohiym, the God who exists with Powers. There is no scriptural base that points to YHWH’s Spirit of wisdom, of which Solomon poetical
ly refers to as a she, as being a pre-existent Jesus.Psalms 102:21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the Lord. 23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. 28 The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”
YHWH ALONE through His Spirit of Wisdom laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. YHWH always endures, His Spirit is Eternal Life. YHWH does not grow old and YHWH does not change, and neither do His promises change. We have confidence that they indeed become fulfilled. Though we grow old and die, we have been promised to be changed from mortal to immortal. This change has been fulfilled through our belief in Jesus Christ, who is the firstborn of the dead, and the firstborn of many brethren.
The SON who is the image of God is directly shown to be the man who died on the cross. This man was known before time began as the man that would one day fulfill the Father’s Promise of Eternal Life. All of creation was made FOR and because of this MAN. Scripture does not reflect that some spirit son helped create heaven and earth. What we are being told is that Jesus, the anointed human being, was the person through whom YHWH created heaven and earth for. Through the coming Christ, heaven and earth was made.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Verses 10-12 represent the author speaking of YHWH, quoting directly from David in Psalms 102. Putting verses 10-12 in quotations to elude that the text is God speaking to Jesus should be easily scene as false. Not only is it a direct quotation of David speaking about YHWH, but as well we know for a fact that Jesus DID age on earth, and that his years could fail him, and after he died he was changed from mortal to immortal.
There exists no true scriptural base that says Jesus created heaven and earth or helped create heaven and earth. On the contrary as shown, our Heavenly Father ALONE created heaven and earth through His Powers. He created heaven and earth for and by His foreknowledge of the coming Christ. YHWH created heaven and earth for the eternal righteous MAN.
No scripture states that a spirit son was created before all of creation and was called God's firstborn son.
Adam was the first man that was created. Luke 3 calls him the son of God. The earth was given to Adam by the Father to rule over and subdue it. Adam was the firstborn son, who was given authority over all creation. When Adam sinned however and brought death, he lost his position as firstborn son.
Deuteromy 21:15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, 16 then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright;
Genesis 48:17 Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will bless, saying, 'May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!' ” And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh. 21 Then Israel said to Joseph, “Behold, I am dying, but God will be with you and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22 Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow.”
YHWH has done the same with Jesus putting him BEFORE Adam, giving Jesus the inheritance and the rights of the firstborn.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Jesus was APPOINTED heir of all things through his actions AS A MAN. This appointing makes him the rightful firstborn overall creation.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many b
rethren.Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Once again scripture shows that it is the MAN who died on the cross who is the image of the invisible God, not some pre-existing spirit son. This MAN is the firstborn over all creation, meaning that He has all authority and rulership over all creation. YHWH SET Jesus BEFORE Adam giving him the NAME and the rights of firstborn son.
Irene did you by chance read the above post of which speaks of God's Wisdom?It shows through clear cut scripture that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth, and He did so through His very own Spirit of Wisdom, which is just ONE of His many awesome Powers.
If you or Georg would be kind enough to show me how I am wrong in the above post that would be much appreciated.
Peace to you and Georg, Jodi
Hi brother Gene and Sisters Jodi & Irene,
I appreciate your excellent posts on preexistence but I am really fed up with these endless debates on preexistence. Our N.T is so much ambigous that even you can stick to your side of beleif whether it is prexistence or no preexistence. I find everybody here is winning as well as loosing his debate. Nowdays I study much on the Jewish interpretation of Christian scriptures I mean N.T. I am really oriented towars their statement of faith. I also find even the Unitarianism can not fully interpret N.T proprely. Christianity had manipulated many things in the N.T by way of misinterpreting the Jewish scriptures. The result is confusion everywhere.I hope you all will realise this truth in your endeavours.
Peace and love
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Jan. 22 2010,11:28) Hi brother Gene and Sisters Jodi & Irene,
I appreciate your excellent posts on preexistence but I am really fed up with these endless debates on preexistence. Our N.T is so much ambiguous that even you can stick to your side of belief whether it is preexistence or no preexistence. I find everybody here is winning as well as loosing his debate. Nowadays I study much on the Jewish interpretation of Christian scriptures I mean N.T. I am really oriented towars their statement of faith. I also find even the Unitarianism can not fully interpret N.T properly. Christianity had manipulated many things in the N.T by way of misinterpreting the Jewish scriptures. The result is confusion everywhere.I hope you all will realise this truth in your endeavours.
Peace and love
Adam
Did you hear when Jesus told why he often spoke figuratively and in parables?Many people even in Jesus' day were confused because they did not look at his teachings from God's point of view.
The ones you choose to consort with are such people as are many that claim to be Christians. That should not be a surprise as many rejected Jesus or turned away from him even as he walked this earth.
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 22 2010,16:28) Hi brother Gene and Sisters Jodi & Irene,
I appreciate your excellent posts on preexistence but I am really fed up with these endless debates on preexistence. Our N.T is so much ambigous that even you can stick to your side of beleif whether it is prexistence or no preexistence. I find everybody here is winning as well as loosing his debate. Nowdays I study much on the Jewish interpretation of Christian scriptures I mean N.T. I am really oriented towars their statement of faith. I also find even the Unitarianism can not fully interpret N.T proprely. Christianity had manipulated many things in the N.T by way of misinterpreting the Jewish scriptures. The result is confusion everywhere.I hope you all will realise this truth in your endeavours.
Peace and love
Adam
Hi Adam,What truth are you speaking of? You have left us with accusations on misunderstanding but yet you leave us with no explanation of what you believe is the true understanding.
You make it sound as if we are both wrong, which would then create your truth somewhere in between….? I find it hard to believe that the truth lies somewhere in between pre-existence and non pre-existence. Please explain further brother what you mean.
My understanding is that mainstream Christian doctrine is founded on men interpreting the NT through their pagan preconceived ideas. As well, Jews have had their own problems giving scriptural understanding through pagan influences, as a matter of fact the Jews would be the first to blame in distorting the word of God. They were of the first men, being of the 12 tribes, to receive it and therefore the first to indeed place their own false ideas onto it.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,10:46) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 22 2010,05:01) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,04:17) Irene……..I wish you would reconsider you position on the preexistence of Jesus , He did (NOT) preexist his Berth, the only thing that did was the Plan of GOD to raise up a perfected MAN, which he did do and raised HIM From the dead and gave him eternal life. In Jesus we see what The Power of GOD can Perform . Jesus was to demonstrate (GOD The FATHERS) Plan Purpose and POWER. Give Glory for Jesus to God the FATHER, the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. Can't you see it was Gods plan all alone to Perfect mankind and He started with Jesus the (firstborn) from the dead of many brethren. Jesus is exactly like we are in every way without exception and what GOD did (IN) Jesus he can also do in US. And as He gave Jesus eternal life He can also give us eternal, isn't this our HOPE that what GOD did for Jesus He can also do for US. That our Faith may always be in GOD the FATHERS POWER, to create Us to be exactly like Jesus. peace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
Gene and Jodi! I go by Scriptures and not what you both or anybody else wants Me to believe. I have given you and Jodi those Scriptures and you don't see it? That is not my fault.
Here are they again
Rev. 3:14
Col. 1:15-17
verse 18 will tell you that He also was the firstborn of the death that He may have preeminence, meaning first in all.You gave me that Scripture, but ignore verse 15-17
John 17:5 by Jesus own words. “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
That is not just the plan of God, is it?
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
verse 17″For God send His Son not into the world to condemn the World…….
So where did God send His Son from.
John 1:1 The Word was in the beginning with God …..We know that it is Jesus because of verse 14
And the Word became flesh.Rev.19:13″And He was clothed with a venture dipped in Blood and His name is the Word of God.” It was the Father power and the Son that created the World and Humans. It says Us and Our. And since Jesus was the Spoken Word of God it was both the Father and the Son.
This shows us that He was the Word in the beginning with God the Father. And He came to do the will of the Father.
The plan of God cannot become flesh, can it?
Also which you and others think it is Wisdom speaking, but even t8 thinks it is Jesus too, and I agree.
Proverbs 8:22-30
Gene, I have put all of these Scriptures for you down before. Do me a favor and really study these and don't just shake your head and stay in the unbelief of this Scriptures.
It reminds me of myself because I did not want to believe this either. However God did not lieve me in that unbelief.
All this also takes nothing away from the power of our Heavenly Father. He will always be above all.1 Corinth. 11:3 “
The Head of man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God.”Why don't you also look at the Post that t8 made somewhere on this Tread.
There are just to many Scriptures to ignore all this for me,prove all things, and I did.
1 Thess. 5:21Peace and Love Irene
Irene,I asked you to give me ONE scripture that says that God SENT a spirit son. Can you do that? I am unaware that any such scripture exists.
What does exist is the FACT that scripture says that God SENT Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not a spirit son, he is the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit, or would you like to deny that Jesus came in the flesh?
Does God's PROMISE MEAN ANYTHING to you Irene?
God promised to SEND a MAN, NOT a spirit son to become a man.
Your doctrine has you in delusions IMO, for you cannot SEE that the scripture CLEARLY states that it is JESUS CHRIST.
Apparently you are unaware that JESUS CHRIST represents the MAN born of MARY who was anointed by the Holy spirit. You see his name and you DENY ALL that it means and represents. You see his name and apply it to a false being.
If Jesus Christ is said to be the firstborn over all creation, and we know that Jesus Christ represents the MAN born of Mary, then we should OBVIOUSLY understand that he is said to be firstborn over all creation in relation to being placed BEFORE Adam, taking over Adam's BIRTHRIGHT, for Jesus Christ was APPOINTED HEIR of all things.
It is SIMPLE,
the scripture says Jesus Christ was sent, not a spirit son was sent.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation, not a spirit son was firstborn over all creation. Scripture tells us SPECIFICALLY that a father has the right to declare a younger son as firstborn. What scripture never states is that there existed a spirit son who was firstborn over all creation and that son became a human being.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, not a spirit son. Nowhere does scripture state that God's only begotten son was an immortal spirit being that later became a human.
the scripture says that Jesus Christ was the brightness of God's glory and the express image of His person, not a spirit son. The MAN who died on the cross and was raised from the dead, was the glory of God, NOT some immortal spirit being.
the scriptures says that the world was created through and for Jesus Christ. I'll ask you again Irene WHO in the name of YHWH IS Jesus Christ? NO scripture exists that says God created heaven and earth by and for an immortal spirit son.
1Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
In the beginning existed the PROMISE of eternal life, as well before time began that eternal life was promised to come in a MAN who would be anointed with the Holy Spirit.
The glory Jesus was waiting for was eternal life, the glory that Jesus was waiting for was that his corruptible flesh would not see corruption but would be changed into incorruptible flesh. This glory we are directly told from scripture existed before time began in a PROMISE.
Irene please show me ONE scripture that says the glory Jesus had in the beginning with God was in him being some immortal spirit creature.
Jesus Christ is the man anointed with the Holy Spirit. Before time began God promised that He would send this man. This promise existed as God's WORD did it not Irene? This promise was fulfilled when Jesus was born and carried out the will of God, was it not? In the flesh of Jesus the WORD of God was fulfilled. What was once God's word, became real. I don't get why that is so hard for you to understand?
Irene I do NOT ignore the following,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or pow
ers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.You turn the identity of the “HE” in the above over to a FASLE BEING. The “HE”, is the MAN who died on the cross.
The verse right before clearly identifies who the “HE” is 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The person who is in the image of the invisible God is the MAN Jesus, not some immortal spirit being. For by the MAN who shed his blood on the cross were all things created. The MAN who denied his flesh and followed the will of the Father, is before all things, meaning He is the heir and ruler of the Kingdom of the Father.
Can you not realize the DAMAGE your doctrine creates, when you change the MEANING and PERSON of Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ behaved exemplifying the character of God. We are to do likewise, and know that we can because Jesus the MAN is our inspiration. However if it was not Jesus but some immortal spirit son that was the image of God, then that creates a huge separation between us and Jesus and between us and God. Did Jesus accomplish what he accomplished because God's Spirit was working in a man, or because Jesus was also a pre-existing spirit son?
Jodi! In John 17:5 Jesus asked His Father to go back what He was before.
“And now O Father glory Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the World was.” We do know that Jesus is a Spirit being now glorified Being. He has immortality now. Before the world was He was with the Father. That is what you are looking for. Jesus was a Spirit being and He emptied Himself to become a servant, even to the death on the cross. Jesus knew what was expecteed of Him and that is why God exalted Him above any iother being. What else don't you understand. These Scriptures tells us that He was in Heaven with the Father before the world was and It is He that created by the power from the Father. I put all the Scriptures down again in my next post for you. Prove all things, I have and now it is your turn.
IreneHi brother Kerwin and Sis Jodi,
Thanks for your response on my post. I understand your concern on me. Please see the truth from otherside, you yourself will understand how Christianity had manipulated things to prove Jesus as the Jewish messiah. Please read some polamic literature like “faith Strengthened”, “Why Jews rejected Jesus..”, Twenty-six reasons why ..” etc. Here are some of such links you can know by yourself that our Christian understanding of Messiah has obscured the real Jewish Messiah.1. http://faithstrengthened.org/
2. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths….us.aspx
3. http://www.26reasons.com/
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
5. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19722984/Aryeh-Kaplan-The-Real-MessiahAnswer for yourself whether Christianity has the answers for the questions raised by Jews today?
Jodi Here are some more Scriptures to show you what I believe the Bible says about this subject.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 6:38″For I have come down from Heaven to not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
You wanted to know how Jesus was a Spirit Being, no other Beings are in Heaven except Spirit Beings and that is were Jesus came from.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them,” Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us….Here you both think it is the plan of God. A plan of God did not go back to the Father, it was Jesus, that shows me that He was the Spokesperson of God the Father.
Rev. 19:13″And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood;and His name is the Word of God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14….”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of all creation.
Jesus was also the firstborn from the death.
Col. 1:18And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the firstborn from the death, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all, the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death.
Peace and Love Irene
I am bringing this up again, because Jodi and Gene were asking me about this subject and I do not want it to go down to far so they can't fine it………….Irene
Adam……..You are like a SON to me, and with all my heart i tell you Beware OF the “leaven OF THE JEW'S”. I have been in their synagogues and debated with them about Jesus as being the Messiah , with their Rabbis, they rejected Jesus and GOD rejected them. And cast them out of their land as He did ISREAL also. Make a study of the seventy week Prophesy of DANIEL. and don't let them tell you they really don't understand it, as a excuse to deny Jesus' Messiah-ship . Look Herod and everyone else who existed at the time of Jesus knew it was the time of the Messiah when he came into existence. Even the apostle said come as see the one MOSES and the prophets was Talking about. God the FATHER has given us many and Great wittiness attesting to Jesus' Messiah-ship. Remember those who have not the son have not the FATHER who Sent him either. The Jew's as a whole have rejected Jesus as the Christ, and GOD have rejected them also, until they repent and repent they will. Now when i say the Jews, I do not mean (ALL) Jews there is a few who do accept Jesus as the Messiah.We have some here like Con and Ashermoshs, and i know other also.
Adam just because some scriptures have be miss translated and falsely transcribed does not mean all are. You already had the basic understanding of the truth , so don't get drug down is some little stick points and go ship wreck. Stay with the Basic of the Doctrines of Christ as spoken BY Jesus and the apostles, The Spirit of GOD will reveal any discrepancies that may be there, but don't throw out the baby with the wash. IMO
With love and great concern………………….your older brother in Christ Jesus our LORD…………..gene
Gene I do agree with you on the articles that Adam brought up and Adam like Mandy think that Jesus is not the Messiah. Since He addressed it to you and Jodi I said nothing. However He should realize that it was the Jew's at that time that crucified our Savior. And some did get Baptized, but not today's Jewish People. But God is not finished with them yet. Romans tell us that. You wrote a real nice post to Adam and I hope and pray that He will not go with Mandy on the road to destruction. I have been very disappointed in Mandy since i belong also on Face[book. She took Me and Kathi of as Her Friend. That is what happens when you try to do things without God. Our Heavenly Father loves His Son and has said so in the Hebrew for one.
Also Gene are you going to respond to my Post? I hope they are good Scriptures.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,12:29) Adam……..You are like a SON to me, and with all my heart i tell you Beware OF the “leaven OF THE JEW'S”. I have been in their synagogues and debated with them about Jesus as being the Messiah , with their Rabbis, they rejected Jesus and GOD rejected them. And cast them out of their land as He did ISREAL also. Make a study of the seventy week Prophesy of DANIEL. and don't let them tell you they really don't understand it, as a excuse to deny Jesus' Messiah-ship . Look Herod and everyone else who existed at the time of Jesus knew it was the time of the Messiah when he came into existence. Even the apostle said come as see the one MOSES and the prophets was Talking about. God the FATHER has given us many and Great wittiness attesting to Jesus' Messiah-ship. Remember those who have not the son have not the FATHER who Sent him either. The Jew's as a whole have rejected Jesus as the Christ, and GOD have rejected them also, until they repent and repent they will. Now when i say the Jews, I do not mean (ALL) Jews there is a few who do accept Jesus as the Messiah.We have some here like Con and Ashermoshs, and i know other also. Adam just because some scriptures have be miss translated and falsely transcribed does not mean all are. You already had the basic understanding of the truth , so don't get drug down is some little stick points and go ship wreck. Stay with the Basic of the Doctrines of Christ as spoken BY Jesus and the apostles, The Spirit of GOD will reveal any discrepancies that may be there, but don't throw out the baby with the wash. IMO
With love and great concern………………….your older brother in Christ Jesus our LORD…………..gene
Hi brother Gene,
I know you will be very much concerned about my recent posts. I appreciate your concern as a spiritual father to me. But I am really fed up with these unending debates on trinity and preexistence. You know brother once you don't accept the divinity of Jesus or the preexistence there is nothing left for Christianity except to say that Jesus was the Messiah even for that there is always negative trend for proving Jesus as Messiah among the theologians. No significant prophecy of Messiah had been fulfilled by Jesus except we say that he will fulfill all of them during his second coming. According to Jewish belief no second coming of Messiah had been foreseen in the Hebrew scriptures. Whatever the proof we have is only from our N.T which the Jewish scholors negate as authentic.So where do we see the proof for Jesus beiing the Messiah as of now. Christianity always blaming the Jews for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah can we really prove to them that Jesus is Messiah as of now. I am really in great dilemma. If you can't accept the basic creed of Christianity we don't have any thing in between except to accept what the Jews believe about their God. I find it more realiable than even beleiving the interpretations of non-trinitarians who give only half-truth not full. I mean when you beleive that God of the Israel is the one God and Jews don't need for any mediator to reach that one God, where is the question of believing Jesus for the earning personal salvation. No Hebrew scripture states that Jews have to believe Messiah or pray to him to achieve their salvation.
Once you leave basic creed of Christianity I mean the belief in Jesus as God or about his preexistence I think there is no inbetween path except to embrace the original religion of Abraham, Isaac and Israel stating that Yahweh is one God and there is no mediator required to reach Him. A Jew pray to his God without any mediatorship. so where is the question of Jesus' mediatorship is required for to reach God? I see there are many holes in our Christianity when I study it critically.
Hope you will understand me and pray for me to be oriented towards the truth not to any man made creeds. I am also thankful to Sis Irene for her concern for me.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
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