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Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 30 2009,04:44) Roman Emperor's went by the title ‘Lord’ (kurios), Are the equal to the trinity?
Huh what? The “kurios” who saved the people out of Egypt in verse 5 is the same “kurios of verse 4 and is explicitly identified as Jesus Christ.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 30 2009,04:48) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 29 2009,12:24) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,09:15) Gene said: Quote [The] SPIRIT of GOD that was the ROCK guiding the Childern of Israel in the wilderness, not JESUS the MAN,
Gene,
Who said that it was Jesus the man who followed them? It was Jesus BEFORE He became a man that followed them. It doesn't help your case to put words in people's mouths. Jude verse 5 says that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.5 “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” ESV
Again, it was not the man Jesus who followed them. It was Jesus BEFORE He became flesh who followed them.
thinker
Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι, εἰδότας ἅπαξ πάντα ὅτι κύριος λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν,Word is Kurios not “Jesus”.
The context proves that 'Kurious” here is Jesus!But you choose to ignore the context to support you false doctrine!
WJ,They're not interested in context.
thinker
κύριος (transliterated: kurios) is a Greek word used extensively in the New Testament.
It occurs 717 times in various forms.
In most English versions of the Bible it is translated “lord” or “master.”
It is used in the following ways:
As a title for Yahuweh
As a title for Yashuw'ah
Referring to masters of slaves
Referring to the head of a household
Referring to a chief or leaderThe core meaning of kurios is “one who commands.”
Constitutionalist said:
Quote The core meaning of kurios is “one who commands.”
All you need to do now is put the “core” meaning in its context and you will do well.4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and the only One who commands, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the One who commands, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
What have you proven? The “one who commands” and saved them out of Egypt is Jesus. Or does the “core” meaning mystically change in verse 5?
thinker
English translations tend to use “lord” when referring to Yahuweh but “master” or “ruler” when referring to men.
This creates some confusion in the mind of many since the average person will not be aware that the two words refer to a single concept and so they will often miss the connection between the two.
Quote You cannot be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than the other. You cannot serve both Yahuweh and money. (Mat. 6:24, CEV) Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, “We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles.” But I will tell them, “I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!” (Mat. 7:21-23, CEV)
The words in bold are translations of the same word kurios.
To be accurate we should say that the first example is the plural form κυρίοις while the others are singular.
But all the same these are essentially the same word.
As English speakers we have an intuitive idea of what a master is.
A master in most of our minds is principally the owner of slaves.
That is a pretty close depiction of the New Testament conception of kurios.
But I believe our understanding differs from those of the first century simply because they had a more intimate acquaintance with this concept.
In associating the term kurios with owning of slaves, a Greek speaker of the first century would have associated this term with other concepts as well:
A kurios is wealthy
A kurios is the head of a large household
A kurios is in charge of others
A kurios is responsible for the welfare of his slavesThere are all sorts of implications for us as followers of Yashuw'ah when we think of him as our kurios.
These include:
Because Yashuw'ah is our kurios, we are his slaves
Because Yashuw'ah is our kurios, he is responsible to take care of usWe tend to internalize that first concept without the second.
We are willing to concede in general terms that Yashuw'ah is our master although we probably metaphorize this more than we should.
Yashuw'ah is our master!
His will determines our destiny not our own.
We are owned by him and our energy is devoted to serving him for his benefit.
Ouch!
The second truth is equally important.
When Yashuw'ah is our master he controls our lives and actions but he also takes upon himself the welfare of his slaves.
We are his to command.
But we are also his to be clothed, and fed, and provided for in every way.
This is the secret to understanding Yashuw'ah’ teaching about serving two masters.
It is not merely a case of being a slave to money, but rather choosing the preferred option which is to be under the care of our benevolent kurios.
And the second passage quoted above should chill our souls.
Yashuw'ah is talking to us.
You can call him “Lord” or “Master” or whatever you want but you can be guilty of not hearing his commands and obeying him.
All our service can turn out to be “self-service” and we find out at the Judgement Day that we were never serving the Lord at all.
I invite you to prayerfully consider the issue of what “Lord” really means to us today.
My prayer is that we may all learn to serve our Master more faithfully.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 30 2009,05:16) English translations tend to use “lord” when referring to Yahuweh but “master” or “ruler” when referring to men. This creates some confusion in the mind of many since the average person will not be aware that the two words refer to a single concept and so they will often miss the connection between the two.
Quote You cannot be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than the other. You cannot serve both Yahuweh and money. (Mat. 6:24, CEV) Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, “We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles.” But I will tell them, “I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!” (Mat. 7:21-23, CEV)
The words in bold are translations of the same word kurios.
To be accurate we should say that the first example is the plural form κυρίοις while the others are singular.
But all the same these are essentially the same word.
As English speakers we have an intuitive idea of what a master is.
A master in most of our minds is principally the owner of slaves.
That is a pretty close depiction of the New Testament conception of kurios.
But I believe our understanding differs from those of the first century simply because they had a more intimate acquaintance with this concept.
In associating the term kurios with owning of slaves, a Greek speaker of the first century would have associated this term with other concepts as well:
A kurios is wealthy
A kurios is the head of a large household
A kurios is in charge of others
A kurios is responsible for the welfare of his slavesThere are all sorts of implications for us as followers of Yashuw'ah when we think of him as our kurios.
These include:
Because Yashuw'ah is our kurios, we are his slaves
Because Yashuw'ah is our kurios, he is responsible to take care of usWe tend to internalize that first concept without the second.
We are willing to concede in general terms that Yashuw'ah is our master although we probably metaphorize this more than we should.
Yashuw'ah is our master!
His will determines our destiny not our own.
We are owned by him and our energy is devoted to serving him for his benefit.
Ouch!
The second truth is equally important.
When Yashuw'ah is our master he controls our lives and actions but he also takes upon himself the welfare of his slaves.
We are his to command.
But we are also his to be clothed, and fed, and provided for in every way.
This is the secret to understanding Yashuw'ah’ teaching about serving two masters.
It is not merely a case of being a slave to money, but rather choosing the preferred option which is to be under the care of our benevolent kurios.
And the second passage quoted above should chill our souls.
Yashuw'ah is talking to us.
You can call him “Lord” or “Master” or whatever you want but you can be guilty of not hearing his commands and obeying him.
All our service can turn out to be “self-service” and we find out at the Judgement Day that we were never serving the Lord at all.
I invite you to prayerfully consider the issue of what “Lord” really means to us today.
My prayer is that we may all learn to serve our Master more faithfully.
What do you prove?4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and the only One who commands, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the One who commands, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
What have you proven? The “one who commands” and saved them out of Egypt is Jesus. Or does the “core” meaning mystically change in verse 5?
thinker
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 29 2009,13:04) κύριος (transliterated: kurios) is a Greek word used extensively in the New Testament. It occurs 717 times in various forms.
In most English versions of the Bible it is translated “lord” or “master.”
It is used in the following ways:
As a title for Yahuweh
As a title for Yashuw'ah
Referring to masters of slaves
Referring to the head of a household
Referring to a chief or leaderThe core meaning of kurios is “one who commands.”
Actually Strong's G2962 – kyrios for Lord is found 748 times in the NT AV and the definition of the word is…1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
Almost invariably the word refers to Jesus in the the NT however the Arians like to play word games with it when it is convienient to their doctrine!
Scriptures says there is “only one Lord and Master”!
Deut 6:4, Eph 4:5, 1 Cor 8:6, Tit 1:4
But we have a whole lot of professing believers following more than “One Lord and master”.
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Almost invariably the word refers to Jesus in the the NT however the Arians like to play word games with it when it is convienient to their doctrine! Scriptures says there is “only one Lord and Master”!
WJ,
Yes indeed. All Con is doing is playing games with words. He will not comment on “kurios” in its context of Jude 4-5.thinker
I don't think that anybody is playing on this site. The word Lord is in the New and Old Testaments. If you notice that in the Old T. LORD is mostly in Capital letters and it is God the Father. While Lord it is Jesus mostly. In Ancient times lord was used for all kinds of man in charger just like God is used for other then our God. I don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to know that. It is the translators that were had so much respect for our God that they did not want to misspell His name.
And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one in their believes and the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit which is not even mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in any of the books in the Bible. There are several Scriptures that tell us that the Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and not a Person.
We have 5 Bibles and in each one of them it says the same. Even our German Bible. We know by Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all and in us all.” Sometimes I think people think to highly of them and can't humble themselves.
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love IreneQuote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:47) I don't think that anybody is playing on this site. The word Lord is in the New and Old Testaments. If you notice that in the Old T. LORD is mostly in Capital letters and it is God the Father. While Lord it is Jesus mostly. In Ancient times lord was used for all kinds of man in charger just like God is used for other then our God. I don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to know that. It is the translators that were had so much respect for our God that they did not want to misspell His name.
And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one in their believes and the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit which is not even mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in any of the books in the Bible. There are several Scriptures that tell us that the Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and not a Person.
We have 5 Bibles and in each one of them it says the same. Even our German Bible. We know by Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all and in us all.” Sometimes I think people think to highly of them and can't humble themselves.
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
That's right Irenewhat I find amazing is that when you put down a post that they can not explain no answer. So W.J. and thinker what about the post that I made, you agree or disagree, if you disagree why?
otherwise forever hold your peace. IreneQuote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,16:47) And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
IreneBecause Jude 1:4, 5 says that Jesus is our “ONLY Master and Lord” and that he is the one that saved the children of Israel, (verse 5), which is proof he is YHWH!
What does “ONLY” mean to you?
Is he your “ONLY Master and Lord”?
WJ
Quote (martian @ Jan. 02 2010,10:41) Quote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:47) I don't think that anybody is playing on this site. The word Lord is in the New and Old Testaments. If you notice that in the Old T. LORD is mostly in Capital letters and it is God the Father. While Lord it is Jesus mostly. In Ancient times lord was used for all kinds of man in charger just like God is used for other then our God. I don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to know that. It is the translators that were had so much respect for our God that they did not want to misspell His name.
And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one in their believes and the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit which is not even mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in any of the books in the Bible. There are several Scriptures that tell us that the Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and not a Person.
We have 5 Bibles and in each one of them it says the same. Even our German Bible. We know by Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all and in us all.” Sometimes I think people think to highly of them and can't humble themselves.
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
That's right Irene
Irene and Martian,Ron is indeed playing games with words. What does it matter how many “lords” there may be or whom may be “lords?” Nick too say that there are many “lords.” But Jude verse 4 says that OUR “Only Master and Lord is Jesus Christ.”
If Jesus Christ is not YOUR “Only Master and Lord” then the Father is NOT your God!
Pretty simple isn't it?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 03 2010,02:34) Quote (martian @ Jan. 02 2010,10:41) Quote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:47) I don't think that anybody is playing on this site. The word Lord is in the New and Old Testaments. If you notice that in the Old T. LORD is mostly in Capital letters and it is God the Father. While Lord it is Jesus mostly. In Ancient times lord was used for all kinds of man in charger just like God is used for other then our God. I don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to know that. It is the translators that were had so much respect for our God that they did not want to misspell His name.
And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one in their believes and the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit which is not even mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in any of the books in the Bible. There are several Scriptures that tell us that the Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and not a Person.
We have 5 Bibles and in each one of them it says the same. Even our German Bible. We know by Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all and in us all.” Sometimes I think people think to highly of them and can't humble themselves.
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
That's right Irene
Irene and Martian,Ron is indeed playing games with words. What does it matter how many “lords” there may be or whom may be “lords?” Nick too say that there are many “lords.” But Jude verse 4 says that OUR “Only Master and Lord is Jesus Christ.”
If Jesus Christ is not YOUR “Only Master and Lord” then the Father is NOT your God!
Pretty simple isn't it?
thinker
They all see who is playing in here.hi TT
,
Jude 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:
Jude 1:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance
They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
it seems you have difficulty to understand this
I am curious what definition those who believe in preexistence ascribe to the word “conceived”. If any would volunteer that information it would be interesting to hear.
Kerwin……….an idea can be conceived as when a architect conceives plans of a building and goes about to produce it, but it is not a reality until it is built. Peter said Jesus was foreordained, (he was in the plan of GOD) conceived by GOD in the beginning, (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (became a reality) in His time. Another words He was (NOT) manifested or (existed) Before His time of berth. IMO
hi KW
in the case of Christ he was not conceived before the time he should have to appear as written in the prophets
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 03 2010,17:33) I am curious what definition those who believe in preexistence ascribe to the word “conceived”. If any would volunteer that information it would be interesting to hear.
KerwinIs man only flesh?
Does the natural conception also included the Spirit/Soul of the person? Or was that the part that the Father imparted by his breath?
That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is Spirit is Spirit.
Why is it so hard to understand that the “Spirit of Jesus”, the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh?
If God can dwell in human bodies who have a Spirit, then why can't God be the Spirit in a human body?
WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 04 2010,04:31) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 03 2010,02:34) Quote (martian @ Jan. 02 2010,10:41) Quote (banana @ Jan. 02 2010,08:47) I don't think that anybody is playing on this site. The word Lord is in the New and Old Testaments. If you notice that in the Old T. LORD is mostly in Capital letters and it is God the Father. While Lord it is Jesus mostly. In Ancient times lord was used for all kinds of man in charger just like God is used for other then our God. I don't have to know Hebrew or Greek to know that. It is the translators that were had so much respect for our God that they did not want to misspell His name.
And what does Jude 4-5 have to do with anything. It says about God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one in their believes and the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit which is not even mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in any of the books in the Bible. There are several Scriptures that tell us that the Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and not a Person.
We have 5 Bibles and in each one of them it says the same. Even our German Bible. We know by Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all and in us all.” Sometimes I think people think to highly of them and can't humble themselves.
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
That's right Irene
Irene and Martian,Ron is indeed playing games with words. What does it matter how many “lords” there may be or whom may be “lords?” Nick too say that there are many “lords.” But Jude verse 4 says that OUR “Only Master and Lord is Jesus Christ.”
If Jesus Christ is not YOUR “Only Master and Lord” then the Father is NOT your God!
Pretty simple isn't it?
thinker
They all see who is playing in here.
Con,I Jesus Christ YOUR “only master and Lord?”
This is not a trick question.
thinker
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