- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2009,12:41) hi WJ
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
you sure that this will be your base on your believe of the trinity?
??
tNo One scripture is my base for the Trinity.
But you cannot even refute Matt 28:19 as being three can you?
WJ
What were the Seven things Yeshua HaMoshiach said on the cross?
Luke 23:34, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”
Luke 23:43, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
John 19:26-27, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then He *said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”
Matt. 27:46, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY G-D, MY G-D, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
John 19:26, “I am thirsty.”
John 19:29, “It is finished!”
Luke 23:46, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2009,02:28) Quote (banana @ Dec. 22 2009,05:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2009,17:05) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2009,19:02) this go s for you to WJ
t{{{{{BRRRRR}}}}} I am scared!
Get real. You guys can't even get past Matt 28:19.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“:
Singular name for three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all having the definite article proving there are three distinct persons.
You do believe in the three don't you?
Bingo! Trinity! So you believe in a Trinity, you just don't see them as “One”!
Now all you have to do is read the scriptures that claim..
The Father is God.
Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Then try to prove that the three are not “One” and also try and prove that we have more than “One Spirit”!
The contradictions are with you and the Arians and Unitarians.
Once you think you have this one licked then maybe you can move up to John 1:1, or John 20:28, or Isa 9:6, or Heb 1:8 or 2 Peter 1:1 or Titus 2:13, of Jude 1:4, 5 or Rev 1:8, or Phil 2:6-8 or Heb 1:10 or 1 John 5:20, or John 1:18 or Acts 20:28 and the many others that imply Jesus equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit as a seperate person from the Father.
“But they refused to pay attention; “STUBBORNLY THEY TURNED THEIR BACKS AND STOPPED UP THEIR EARS“. Zech 7:11
He answered and said unto them, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN“. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. “***THEREFORE SPEAK I TO THEM IN PARABLES***: BECAUSE THEY SEEING SEE NOT; AND HEARING THEY HEAR NOT, NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND“. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, “BY HEARING YE SHALL HEAR, AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND SEEING YE SHALL SEE, AND SHALL NOT PERCEIVE“: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and “THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM“. Matt 13:11-15
WJ
W.J. I have given you several Scriptures that prove the trinity wrong, yet you go by one Scripture that says only The Father and the Son and it should say, the Fathers Holy Spirit. It contradicts all other Scriptures that I gave. Why is it that you ignore them…..Again is the Holy Spirit Jesus Father?
John 1:1 does not prove the trinity. Just that He is the Word and God, even Satan is called God and so many mighty men were called in Ancient times, God.
Same with John 20:28 and Hebrew 1:8
God is a title. God the Father is our God that is above all other. Just to say a few. I am not about to do more nonsense.
Irene
IreneYour scriptures do not disprove the Trinity.
For the same is said about Jesus. Jesus is above all isn't he?” Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and not beneath him isn't he?
The contradictions you have with Matt 28:19 and others is because of your own false doctrine!
Read Matt 28:18 and it might give you some perspective on Matt 28:19!
WJ
WJ,
They only give lip service to what Christ said in matthew 28:18.thinker
WorshippingJesus said to terraricca:
Quote Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”: Singular name for three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all having the definite article proving there are three distinct persons.
thinker
To all………do you see what false Trinitarian and Preexistence doctrines produce and how it corrupts the minds of those who preach and teach it. Thy can't produce any soundness so they start some form of senseless ridicule, but then what else would you expect from false teachers and accusers.
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 23 2009,13:44) To all………do you see what false Trinitarian and Preexistence doctrines produce and how it corrupts the minds of those who preach and teach it. Thy can't produce any soundness so they start some form of senseless ridicule, but then what else would you expect from false teachers and accusers.
GeneIs it ridicule to point out scripture that disagrees with you and that you cannot refute?
WJ
hi WJ
: Members
Posts: 784
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Dec. 23 2009,14:49——————————————————————————–
hi WJ
terrariccaGroup: Members
Posts: 767
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Dec. 23 2009,13:58——————————————————————————–
hi all
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Math;28.19you know this scripture if we look at it in a different angle like this ;baptizing them IN
the FATHER
the SON
the Holy Spirit
this is done in the name of………………
so i can see what WJ;try to say that the trinity does not exist ,
we know who is the father,we know who is the son,and we know what is the holy spirit dont we?this scripture says to make the father known and the son known all through the Holy spirit,….this is true
thanks WJ i just find this out tonight.
————–
PRQuote (terraricca @ Dec. 24 2009,07:47) hi WJ
: Members
Posts: 784
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Dec. 23 2009,14:49——————————————————————————–
hi WJ
terrariccaGroup: Members
Posts: 767
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Dec. 23 2009,13:58——————————————————————————–
hi all
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Math;28.19you know this scripture if we look at it in a different angle like this ;baptizing them IN
the FATHER
the SON
the Holy Spirit
this is done in the name of………………
so i can see what WJ;try to say that the trinity does not exist ,
we know who is the father,we know who is the son,and we know what is the holy spirit dont we?this scripture says to make the father known and the son known all through the Holy spirit,….this is true
thanks WJ i just find this out tonight.
————–
PR
terraricca W.J. believes in the trinity doctrine. which according to Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all… and by Jesus own words in
John 14 :28…. for my Father is greater then I. I also gave Him and thinker some other Scriptures that prove the trinity wrong also, but they just say no to it.
God is not a God of confusion. The Scripture that you quoted is only what we are baptized in. We receive God's Holy Spirit in order to understand the things of God. The Holy Spirit is not a person but an essence of God like patience, joy, kindness etc.
Looking at Ephesians I just noticed
Ephesians 3 14 For this reason I bow my knees to the FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
verse15 from whom the whole family in Heaven is named,
verse 16 that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to be straightened with might through HIS SPIRIT, in the inner man.
That is just one Scripture that says His Spirit. And I say again, would the Holy Spirit not be the Father of Jesus if He would be a Person? But that's just it, it is the Fathers Holy Spirit. He never was and never will be a person. Look back on my post with all the Scriptures I gave. I am done here. No more. If they can't see it with all I have given them, they never will. One more thing though, the Preexisting of Jesus has noithing to do with the trinity.
Peace adn Love Irenehi Irene
i know that i just try to show that this scripture does not support the trinity view,
that s allQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 24 2009,05:48) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 23 2009,13:44) To all………do you see what false Trinitarian and Preexistence doctrines produce and how it corrupts the minds of those who preach and teach it. Thy can't produce any soundness so they start some form of senseless ridicule, but then what else would you expect from false teachers and accusers.
GeneIs it ridicule to point out scripture that disagrees with you and that you cannot refute?
WJ
WJ…….tell us why should we accept what you are trying to produce , when ypou won't even acknowledge the Simplest of scriptures post here time and time again, I have quoted where Jesus in Prayer said (“FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. An you come up with some complicated rebuttal and fail to acknowledge this simple scripture as fact and true, as Stated without some slanted Trinitarian view point. We have ask you time and tie again did Jesus have a GOD that was greater then He as (HE) said there was. So many scripture that Show Jesus as a plain ordinary Human Being , Who (LEARNED) obedience by the things He suffered, and That He was a (SON) of GOD, Just like all who Have been impregnated with HOLY SEED are, but not matter what we say and post you just ignore it and never seem to take it to Heart. I tell you WJ with all sincerity JESUS IS NOT GOD, NOR IS ANYONE ELSE A TRUE GOD> THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD< Believe what Jesus plainly said.gene
Mt. 28:19 “…in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.”
The fact that “name” is singular at Matt. 28:19 is only further proof that “authority” or “power” was meant and not a personal name. If more than one person is involved, then the plural “names” would be used (compare Rev. 21:12). Even trinitarians admit that their God is composed of 3 separate persons. And each one of those “persons” has his own personal name (except, as we have seen, the holy spirit really does not)! Therefore, if personal names were intended here for these three different “persons,” the plural “names” would have been used in this scripture.
Since it clearly means “in recognition of the power, or authority of,” it is perfectly correct to use “name” in the singular. In fact, it must be used that way. We even recognize this in our own language today. We say, for example, “I did it in the name [singular] of love, humanity, and justice.”
There is a famous statement in United States history that perfectly illustrates this use of the singular “name” when it is being used to mean “in recognition of power or authority.” Ethan Allen, writing about his capture of Fort Ticonderoga in 1775, quoted the words he spoke when the British commander of that fort asked him by what authority Allen had captured it.
Ethan Allen replied:
“In the name [singular] of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress.” – p. 100, A Book About American History, Stimpson, Fawcett Publ., 1962 printing. (Also see Rebels and Redcoats, p. 54, Scheer and Rankin, Mentor Books, 1959 printing; and p. 167, Vol. 1, Universal Standard Encyclopedia, the 1955 abridgment of the New Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedia.)
How ludicrous it would be to conclude that Allen really meant that Jehovah and the Continental Congress had the same personal name and were both equally God!
To paraphrase the quote credited to trinitarian writer Reymond at the beginning of this section above:
“What Ethan Allen does say is this … 'in the name [singular] of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress,' first asserting the unity of the two by combining them within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article ['the'].”
According to this desperate attempt by trinitarians to make trinitarian evidence from Matt. 28:19, then, the same kind of statement by Ethan Allen is evidence (because of the singular “Name” and the repeated article) that The Continental Congress is equally God! (We might also consider a British expression: “in the name of God, king and country.”)
Also notice how Luke 9:26 (which actually says, “when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels”) is “first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article.” But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the “trinity.” We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!
If Jesus were really saying that Jehovah, Jesus, and the holy spirit had personal names and these names must be used during baptism, he would have used the plural word “names” at Matt. 28:19. And we would see the Father's personal name (“Jehovah” – Is. 63:16; 64:8 – Ps. 83:18 and Luke 1:32 – Exodus 3:15 and Acts 3:13) and the Son's personal name (“Jesus” – Luke 1:31, 32) and the holy spirit's personal name (“?”) all being used in Christian baptism ceremonies for the past 1900 years.
Honestly now, how many religions actually use the personal names “Jehovah,” “Jesus,” and “(??)” when baptizing? – (“We baptize you in the names of 'Jehovah,' 'Jesus,' and '
'.”) Or, since a few anti-Watchtower trinitarians even claim that the singular “name” at Matt. 28:19 is really “Jehovah,” how many religions really use the personal name “Jehovah” (or “Yahweh”) when baptizing? (“We baptize you in Jehovah's name.”) Any church that does not do so, must be admitting, in effect, that “name” in this scripture does not mean personal name!In spite of the extreme weakness of the trinitarian “evidence” for Matt. 28:19, it is nearly always cited by trinitarians because, incredibly poor as it is, it is one of their very best trinitarian “proofs”! And it is generally hailed by trinitarians as the best evidence for the deity of the holy spirit!
This certainly shows how extremely weak the scriptural evidence is for a trinity!
Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:38) Mt. 28:19 “…in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” The fact that “name” is singular at Matt. 28:19 is only further proof that “authority” or “power” was meant and not a personal name. If more than one person is involved, then the plural “names” would be used (compare Rev. 21:12). Even trinitarians admit that their God is composed of 3 separate persons. And each one of those “persons” has his own personal name (except, as we have seen, the holy spirit really does not)! Therefore, if personal names were intended here for these three different “persons,” the plural “names” would have been used in this scripture.
Since it clearly means “in recognition of the power, or authority of,” it is perfectly correct to use “name” in the singular. In fact, it must be used that way. We even recognize this in our own language today. We say, for example, “I did it in the name [singular] of love, humanity, and justice.”
There is a famous statement in United States history that perfectly illustrates this use of the singular “name” when it is being used to mean “in recognition of power or authority.” Ethan Allen, writing about his capture of Fort Ticonderoga in 1775, quoted the words he spoke when the British commander of that fort asked him by what authority Allen had captured it.
Ethan Allen replied:
“In the name [singular] of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress.” – p. 100, A Book About American History, Stimpson, Fawcett Publ., 1962 printing. (Also see Rebels and Redcoats, p. 54, Scheer and Rankin, Mentor Books, 1959 printing; and p. 167, Vol. 1, Universal Standard Encyclopedia, the 1955 abridgment of the New Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedia.)
How ludicrous it would be to conclude that Allen really meant that Jehovah and the Continental Congress had the same personal name and were both equally God!
To paraphrase the quote credited to trinitarian writer Reymond at the beginning of this section above:
“What Ethan Allen does say is this … 'in the name [singular] of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress,' first asserting the unity of the two by combining them within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article ['the'].”
According to this desperate attempt by trinitarians to make trinitarian evidence from Matt. 28:19, then, the same kind of statement by Ethan Allen is evidence (because of the singular “Name” and the repeated article) that The Continental Congress is equally God! (We might also consider a British expression: “in the name of God, king and country.”)
Also notice how Luke 9:26 (which actually says, “when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels”) is “first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article.” But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the “trinity.” We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!
If Jesus were really saying that Jehovah, Jesus, and the holy spirit had personal names and these names must be used during baptism, he would have used the plural word “names” at Matt. 28:19. And we would see the Father's personal name (“Jehovah” – Is. 63:16; 64:8 – Ps. 83:18 and Luke 1:32 – Exodus 3:15 and Acts 3:13) and the Son's personal name (“Jesus” – Luke 1:31, 32) and the holy spirit's personal name (“?”) all being used in Christian baptism ceremonies for the past 1900 years.
Honestly now, how many religions actually use the personal names “Jehovah,” “Jesus,” and “(??)” when baptizing? – (“We baptize you in the names of 'Jehovah,' 'Jesus,' and '
'.”) Or, since a few anti-Watchtower trinitarians even claim that the singular “name” at Matt. 28:19 is really “Jehovah,” how many religions really use the personal name “Jehovah” (or “Yahweh”) when baptizing? (“We baptize you in Jehovah's name.”) Any church that does not do so, must be admitting, in effect, that “name” in this scripture does not mean personal name!In spite of the extreme weakness of the trinitarian “evidence” for Matt. 28:19, it is nearly always cited by trinitarians because, incredibly poor as it is, it is one of their very best trinitarian “proofs”! And it is generally hailed by trinitarians as the best evidence for the deity of the holy spirit!
This certainly shows how extremely weak the scriptural evidence is for a trinity!
There is an abundabce of proof that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and not Greek. When one translates the Great Commission back to Hebrew it takes on a different meaning then what we find in English.Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,First let’s define some of the key words from Hebrew.
Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring who is like the father
Holy = Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit = breath/ source of life
Baptize = emmerse (Gr)With these understandings in place look at the verse again.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.
This ties in very clearly with
Isa 9:6. Unto you a child is born and a son is given and his name (shem Hb.) shall be called Everlasting father mighty God ect.The Isa verse is talking about Christ having the character of God not that he is literally God.
The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.
david
i agree the JW use the name JEHOVAH in there baptism but you also have to accept the faithful slave ' thing. and this is a addition to the scriptures,and know the JW are not disciples of Christ but prozelites of the Wachtower t. what men said is what goes.Let me give you all my understanding of that Scripture.
I believe it should say:” In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit.”
It is the Fathers Spirit that we are talking about. There are several Scriptures like
Ephesians 3:15
from whom the whole Family in Heaven and Earth is named,
verse 16
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory to strengthen with might through His Spirit, in the inner man.
That is what we receive at Baptism. Then we can understand the things of God. Only then can God work with us to become more like Christ.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2009,03:47) hi martian
you mostly right but very few will believe that,the spirit means also something els.
Most people try to personify the Term Spirit. Spirit simply means breath or wind. It is the breath or wind of God (YHWH)
Holy means set aside for a special purpose. the same Hebrew word translated Holy is used to describe temple prostitutes because they are set aside for special purposes. There is nothing spiritual about the word.
Holy Spirit simple means the breath of God set aside for a special purpose.Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2009,06:20) hi martian
the spirit of God was moving about the earth 'Genesis 1
this quote means what you think??
The Mechanical translation of the Hebrew is as follows —
…. and the wind of Elohiym was much fluttering upon the face of the water.As with many Hebrew words they have several meanings depending on the context. Spirit as it is translated in English can mean character, essence of life, or power. In the above verse it can be all three. God's character is portrayed in his creation. Life comes from the breath of God even as Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life in him. God's power is seen in his creation.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
