Preexistence

Participant

WorshippingJesus said to David:

Quote

The real show is to see you squirm when you are in a corner theologically and can’t get out so you just use a little magic and disappear for awhile to avoid the heat.

Yeah Keith…Every time you rake David over the coals he disappears for a while and then comes back to get raked over the coals again.

JW's discourage what David does here because he might become influenced. Maybe he starts to think about your points and has to leave so he can go to his Kingdom Hall and get charged up.

thinker

December 16, 2009 at 5:27 am#164642

Participant

Quote

But the evidence leans our way David, little wonder why all the other major translations render the verse the same.

–wj

Out of all the people (including translators) what percentage would you say believe in the trinity?

(It's an interesting question, I think.) 90%? 95% 98%?

WJ, I find it amusing that you are puzzled that trinitarian translators would translate this verse in a trinitarian way.

Quote

Yeah Keith…Every time you rake David over the coals he disappears for a while and then comes back to get raked over the coals again.

–thinker.

Thinker, I am always amused by your name.

Quote

The real show is to see you squirm when you are in a corner theologically and can’t get out so you just use a little magic and disappear for awhile to avoid the heat.

Hello, kettle, meet pot.

December 16, 2009 at 5:39 am#164647

Participant

Quote

So you say and you’re lonely NWT that has been proven to be disingenuous in its Translation, maybe because there were no Hebrew and Greek scholars on the translating team.

WJ, I strongly get the impression that you truly believe that saying something over and over again makes it true.

Do you believe this?

Whenever I feel like stooping to such things, I think to myself that my tactics would seem obvious and childlike. Perhaps I overestimate people. It seems to work for you.

On the NWT, it certainly has it's critics. But then again, so does the Bible and so do real Christians. They always have.

Let us listen to what Jason BeDuhn has said. (He is a Greek scholar and Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion Northern Arizona University. He holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, and M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington. He is the author of many articles in the areas of Biblical Studies and Manichaean Studies, and of the book, The Manichaean Body: In Discipline and Ritual (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2000), winner of the “Best First Book” prize from the American Academy of Religion.)

Jason who wrote book that compared several major translations, including the NWT, has stated:
“Atrocious, deceitful, and inaccurate” may be what some call the NWT, but such a characterization is completely erroneous. Nearly every message I have received since the Watchtower article came out has claimed that “all reputable scholars,” “every Greek or biblical scholar,” etc. has condemned the NWT. It often sounds like people are getting this quote from the same source. [[[[[[[[I think that source, might be WJ]]]]]] But whatever the source, it is a lie. I have looked into the matter, and found almost no reviews of the NWT in academic journals. Most date from the 50s and 60s (the NWT has been improved since then). This kind of blanket condemnation of the NWT does not exist, for the most part because biblical scholars are far too busy to review WBTS publications which are considered outside of academic interest. It is simply something we don't pay attention to. I would welcome the names of any scholar who has written a review of the KIT or NWT; I am looking for these reviews, which seem few and far between. For [this]characterization to be correct, [a critic] would have to point out places in the NWT where the translators deliberately give a false meaning for a word or phrase. Not a meaning within the range of possibility for the Greek, but something actually false and ungrammatical. Despite dozens of contacts in the last month, no one has yet supplied a single example which shows deliberate distortion (and I have checked many passages suggested to me). The fact is that the NWT is what I call a “hyper-literal” translation, it sticks very close to the Greek, even making awkward English reading. There are a few places where the translators seem to have gone far out of their way, sometimes to clarify something suggested by the Greek, often for no apparent reason (maybe my ignorance of fine points of Witness theology prevents me from grasping what they are up to). And if you look at any other available translation, you will find similar instances where interpretation has been worked into the text in a way that stretches, if it does not violate the Greek. Every translation is biased towards the views of the people who made it. It is hard to judge who is right and who is wrong simply by comparing versions. You must go back to the Greek.”

I want you to notice these words:
For [this]characterization to be correct, [a critic] would have to point out places in the NWT where the translators deliberately give a false meaning for a word or phrase. Not a meaning within the range of possibility for the Greek, but something actually false and ungrammatical. Despite dozens of contacts in the last month, no one has yet supplied a single example which shows deliberate distortion

WJ, what you and others experience is that the NWT does not always translate your verses in a trinitarian way. This does not mean it is ungrammatical.

Jason points out that most translations have “bowed to bias” (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1yfx7/BDR.HTM)

Or have translated “under the pressure of theological bias.” (Truth in Translation, page 44. See http://www.europa.com/~lynnlund/truthintrans.htm)

The NWT does not do this. And that angers you. It's understandable.

The following is taken from (which no longer exists):
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworl….ook.htm

“While critical of some of its translation choices, BeDuhn called the New World Translation a “remarkably good” translation, “better by far” and “consistently better” than some of the others considered. Overall, concluded BeDuhn, the New World Translation “is one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament currently available” and “the most accurate of the translations compared.”—Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.”

This website also quotes him as saying:

“My research has turned up real howlers in ALL of the translations listed above, the NWT included. But statistically the NWT ranks near the top of the comparison in its accuracy. The NAB also scores rather well. While the “Living Bible” and the TEV (“Good News”) Bible rank near the bottom, not because they are paraphrases, but because they introduce different meanings to the text they are supposed to be making clear to the general reader.
I have no personal stake in which Bible emerges as most accurate. My only stake is in informing the public about how theological bias has colored the translations they are using, and in providing them with tools to help them understand what the text behind the translations actually means. This is my job as a biblical scholar…..”

I wonder if someone who is awash in theological bias, such as yourself, WJ, can ever remove that bias and look only grammatically at the NWT.

December 16, 2009 at 5:40 am#164648

Participant

Wickipedia notes the following:

“Some scholars have defended the translation, to some degree.[24]”. . . .
“24. Alan S. Duthie stated that the “Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT, which is certainly not 'filled with the heretical doctrines' …even though a few aberrations can be found. …Some have to condemn out of hand any version made by Jehovah's Witnesses…because they must be full of heresies…It is true that there are some heretical doctrines to be found in NWT (eg. the incoherent polytheism in Jn.1:1,… but the percentage of the whole Bible thus affected… does not reach even 0.1% of the whole, which is very far from 'full'. How To Choose Your Bible Wisely, Alan S. Duthie. pp. 30, 216. Jason BeDuhn stated “While it is difficult to quantify this sort of analysis, it can be said the NW[T] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared.” Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament, 2004 p.163; J. D Phillips stated, “You have done a marvelous work…”; Allen Wikgren referred to it as “Independent reading of merit”; Benjamin Kedar , “ I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that [the OT] reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible….Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language … I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain.”; S. Maclean Gilmore, “The New Testament edition was made by a committee….that possessed an unusual competence in Greek.” The Andover Newton Quarterly, September 1966 Vol. 7, #1 p. 25,26; C. Houtman , in discussing translator bias stated “the [NWT] of the Jehovah's Witnesses can survive the scrutiny of criticism” Nederlands Theologisch Tijdschrift #38 1984 p.279-280; William Carey Taylor stated the NT of the NWT contains “considerable scholarship” The New Bible Pro and Con, 1955 p.75; Edgar Goodspeed, Robert M. McCoy, Steven T. Byington, Alexander Thompson, James Parkinson, and Thomas N. Winter also give favorable mention of the NWT.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki….tnesses

December 16, 2009 at 10:57 am#164685

kerwin

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,11:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

I tend to think arguments over the accuracy of translations is a vain argument for we that are not schooled in translating from the Greek language to English. We have a better translator for we have God. The question is if we are looking for the truth. If we are then when we hear it we will know it. I know this is true because Jesus states it is. He also warned us of many false teachers and some of those teachers are expert at translating. Trust in God. Trust in Jesus.

December 16, 2009 at 3:51 pm#164694

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kerwin……….i agree with that also, Jesus said “no you not you shall all be taught by GOD”, and again “brethren you have no need of a teacher for the SPIRIT (intellect of GOD) teaches you all things”. God the FATHER reveals truth to those he calls. We can get caught into all these debates about scholarship and get all confused by them. We need to remember the first Christians had no bibles or scholarship at all, just the word of true saints of God handed down from one to another, they also had the Old testament writings that they compared what they hear to as the Berean's did. IMO

gene

December 16, 2009 at 4:44 pm#164698

Participant

David said:

Quote

Thinker, I am always amused by your name.

David,
I'm happy to amuse you.

thinker

December 16, 2009 at 5:02 pm#164699

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,16:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

Isn't it because of your polytheism that WJ raked you over the coals last time? Admit it David. The JW's are polytheistic and so is their translation. You think this is a small matter?

And the claim that there is “never” any biased attempt in the NWT is absolutely outrageous. I showed the bias of the NWT translators a long while ago here. I will duplicate it for you below:

Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,

Quote

Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,

Quote

If two substantives are connected by kai and both have the article, they refer to two different persons or things; if the first has the article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person (Syntax of the New Testament Greek, University Press of America, p.76).

The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,

προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

I put the article which comes before “great God” in bold for you. And I also put the Greek “kai” in bold. There is no article before “Savior”. This means that the substantatives “great God” and “Savior” (Jesus Christ) are ONE AND THE SAME.

This is right from the textbook!

Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.

Quote

While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.

TO ALL: DAVID ACTUALLY THINKS THAT “INCOHERENT POLYTHEISM” IS A SMALL MATTER

thinker

December 16, 2009 at 6:36 pm#164714

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

God the FATHER reveals truth to those he calls.

Gene,
Your statement above was true BEFORE Christ was exalted. It is Christ Himself who teaches you now.

” All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

It is the Son who revealed the Father to you. Fall on your face and worship the Son. He has the power to destroy you if you don't (Ps. 2:12).

thinker

December 21, 2009 at 12:51 am#165569

uoflfan

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 17 2009,04:02)

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,16:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

Isn't it because of your polytheism that WJ raked you over the coals last time? Admit it David. The JW's are polytheistic and so is their translation. You think this is a small matter?

And the claim that there is “never” any biased attempt in the NWT is absolutely outrageous. I showed the bias of the NWT translators a long while ago here. I will duplicate it for you below:

Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,

Quote

Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,

Quote

The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,

This is right from the textbook!

Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.

Quote

While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.

TO ALL: DAVID ACTUALLY THINKS THAT “INCOHERENT POLYTHEISM” IS A SMALL MATTER

thinker

Thinker
I understand that Jesus is God, but he is not equal. He has God in him and he lives/was created because of the Father.
John 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

December 21, 2009 at 3:08 am#165592

terraricca

Participant

hi TT
it seams you read verse in the bible ,but every one of those verses are only but a small piece of Gods word,and don't means anything to a person who look at them trough a microscope ,onless you have Christ spirit (if you understand what it means to have christ spirit)the true heart and faith you will find anything you need in the Scriptures to be saved.

December 21, 2009 at 6:20 am#165630

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 16 2009,12:02)

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,16:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

Isn't it because of your polytheism that WJ raked you over the coals last time? Admit it David. The JW's are polytheistic and so is their translation. You think this is a small matter?

And the claim that there is “never” any biased attempt in the NWT is absolutely outrageous. I showed the bias of the NWT translators a long while ago here. I will duplicate it for you below:

Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,

Quote

Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,

Quote

The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,

This is right from the textbook!

Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.

Quote

While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.

TO ALL: DAVID ACTUALLY THINKS THAT “INCOHERENT POLYTHEISM” IS A SMALL MATTER

thinker

Jack

Interesting, they added the article in 2 Peter 1:1 which also is proof of Jesus Deity!

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 NWT

Seems thy like adding both the “indefinite” and “definite” article when it suits them. Yep Bias!

Keith

December 21, 2009 at 6:30 am#165634

terraricca

Participant

hi WJ you never answer my question now so late you will ask wish one it seems you are a good skater on the ice and in mud.

December 21, 2009 at 6:31 am#165635

Participant

Quote

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

–thinker

Aren't you ashamed when you do things like this? Pick one word out?

The actual quote said:
the “Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT, which is certainly not 'filled with the heretical doctrines' …even though a few aberrations can be found. …Some have to condemn out of hand any version made by Jehovah's Witnesses…because they must be full of heresies…It is true that there are some heretical doctrines to be found in NWT (eg. the incoherent polytheism in Jn.1:1,… but the percentage of the whole Bible thus affected…

The quote says that any version made by JW's have to be condemned “out of hand” to be “full of heresies.”
If you're not familiar with the expression “out of hand” Thinker, it means that they had to reject it at once, instantly, not because it actually had heresies, but because it was by JW's.

December 21, 2009 at 6:56 am#165637

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2009,01:30)

hi WJ you never answer my question now so late you will ask wish one it seems you are a good skater on the ice and in mud.

It could be that I have answered your question and find no reason to answer it again.

Is it “are you a Trinitarian”?

Yes, a thousand times over in my responses!

December 21, 2009 at 3:44 pm#165646

terraricca

Participant

hi WJ
thank you for the answer,now can you prove the trinity from Genesis to revelation without bracking the word of God
this means without having the scriptures saying the negative of your thinking,this would maked false.

December 21, 2009 at 4:14 pm#165651

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 21 2009,10:44)

hi WJ
thank you for the answer,now can you prove the trinity from Genesis to revelation without bracking the word of God

this means without having the scriptures saying the negative of your thinking,this would maked false.

Sure. One verse.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: Matt 28:19

Thats three with “One Name”. Thats a Trinity isn't it?

The scriptures say the Father is God.

The scriptures say Jesus is God.

The scritpures say the Spirit is God.

Do your homework and see.

Now all you have to figure out is if they are “One” or not.

Didn't Jesus say “The Father and I are One”?

Doesn't the Bible teach there is only “One Spirit”?

Lets see you prove they are not “One”.

December 21, 2009 at 5:41 pm#165653

banana

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2009,17:20)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 16 2009,12:02)

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,16:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

Isn't it because of your polytheism that WJ raked you over the coals last time? Admit it David. The JW's are polytheistic and so is their translation. You think this is a small matter?

And the claim that there is “never” any biased attempt in the NWT is absolutely outrageous. I showed the bias of the NWT translators a long while ago here. I will duplicate it for you below:

Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,

Quote

Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,

Quote

The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,

This is right from the textbook!

Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.

Quote

While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.

TO ALL: DAVID ACTUALLY THINKS THAT “INCOHERENT POLYTHEISM” IS A SMALL MATTER

thinker

Jack

Interesting, they added the article in 2 Peter 1:1 which also is proof of Jesus Deity!

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 NWT

Seems thy like adding both the “indefinite” and “definite” article when it suits them. Yep Bias!

Keith

W.J. 2 Peter 1:1 does not prove the deity of Christ. It says this
2 Peter 1:1 SIMON PETER, a Servant and Apostle of Jesus Christ; To those who have obtained like precious Faith with us by the righteousness of our God and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. HELD IN EQUAL PRIVILEDGE IS NOT IN THAT VERSE, YOU ADDED THAT.
Tell me how does that state that Christ is deity.
That Bible that you have, if that what it says then it was added to it to deceive many.
Co. 1:15
Rev. 3:14 all say that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and had a beginning.
Also John 1:1 does. In the Beginning…..
I do know that John 1:1 and Hebrew 1:8 tells us that Jesus is a God. MANY ARE CALLED gODS IN ANCIENT TIMES. But Jesus never claimed to be the God that is above all in Ephesians 4:6
And by Jesus own words in John 14: 28 He says that “My Father is greater then I.”
We have several Bibles and neither one says what yours does. That is really unfair to say the least, and dangerous, to those who added it.
Jesus never existed always, He had a Beginning.
Peace and Love Irene

December 21, 2009 at 5:46 pm#165655

Participant

Quote (banana @ Dec. 21 2009,12:41)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2009,17:20)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 16 2009,12:02)

Quote (david @ Dec. 16 2009,16:40)

Wickipedia notes the following:

David,
The source on Wikipedia says that the NWT contains “heresies” (plural) and gives “incoherent polytheism” as one example. I fail to see how you are comforted by this.

Isn't it because of your polytheism that WJ raked you over the coals last time? Admit it David. The JW's are polytheistic and so is their translation. You think this is a small matter?

And the claim that there is “never” any biased attempt in the NWT is absolutely outrageous. I showed the bias of the NWT translators a long while ago here. I will duplicate it for you below:

Heaven Net friends,
Titus 2:13 is a direct assertion that Jesus Christ is God,

Quote

Looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Note this grammatical rule right from the textbook,

Quote

The textbook gives Titus 2:13 as an example of this rule,

This is right from the textbook!

Yet the New World translation inserts a second definite article before the word “Savior” to make a distinction between God and Savior.

Quote

While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

There is no second definite article before “Savior”. The NWT translators inserted the second article in brackets thus exposing their true agenda.

TO ALL: DAVID ACTUALLY THINKS THAT “INCOHERENT POLYTHEISM” IS A SMALL MATTER

thinker

Jack

Interesting, they added the article in 2 Peter 1:1 which also is proof of Jesus Deity!

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 NWT

Seems thy like adding both the “indefinite” and “definite” article when it suits them. Yep Bias!

Keith

Irene

Before you make accusations, please be sure you know what you are talking about.

Read my post again.

The translation I quoted is the NWT, the JWS Bible who converted you away from Trintarianism.

Your beef is with their translation and not mine.

But I do not expect you will correct them for they led you away from the truth of Trinitarianism!

December 21, 2009 at 5:52 pm#165657