Preexistence

Participant

Jesus is God – This man is far removed from anything that we can relate to. Incarnation not conception.

Jesus is preexistent (in whatever form) – This man is removed from what is common and known. Incarnation not conception.

Jesus is the literal Son of God – This man has a Father who is God Almighty and naturally posseses divine qualities. True conception.

A bit about Jesus #3 – although he was in the form of God, and although he possessed divine qualities, he did not use these privileges; he emptied himself of anything that would have given him an edge on us. He became LIKE US. We do not have to “become” like us – we are who we are. Jesus had to “become” like us, because he was divine.

What is wrong with this belief?

July 6, 2007 at 4:21 am#58318

Participant

Hi not3,
So you think Christ was born a superman but emptied himself of his advantages while on EARTH? Sounds like a different order from Phil2.
When is this reported as happening?
What supernatural advantages did the child in the swaddling clothes demonstrate?
Sounds catholic to me!

July 6, 2007 at 4:25 am#58322

kenrch

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,16:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,09:20)

Is there anyone else in scripture called the “Son of man”?

Go to this page on Bible Gateway for your answer. Too many scriptures to quote.

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Do you not know that God is a Jeolous God and there is none beside him!

The Shema…

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

You should check and see who this one Lord is.

What a snafu. LORD is not the same as Lord. LORD is the word used to replace Yhovah or YHWH. Not the same WJ.

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Matt 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Yet we see Jesus being served and worshipped all the time and he even commands men to obey him.

That one is simple. Again, people seem to be reading through filters instead of casting them off and seeing what is written. The verse does not say that we should worship the LORD only, but that we should serve the LORD only. You said Jesus was worshiped, you said nothing about serving Jesus. In fact

Mark 10:45 – “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

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Jesus said…

Jn 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

This is a powerfull statement for a mere man to make to Monotheistic Jews that knew they were only to serve and obey God only!

First, where does Jesus say that he is being served? Where does it say he is God? Col. 3:22 says something about slaves serving masters, are those masters God then? Beyond that, “Master” here can be translated as “doctor”, “master”, or “teacher” (Greek word is “didaskalos”).

Besides, if I “serve” my boss, who has another boss above him, am I not serving both if they are working towards the same goals?

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Jesus said…
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Wait a minute, did he say “you did it not unto me”?

Shouldnt he have said “God” or the “Father”?

Cross reference please. What makes you think that any of the above should be attributed to God the Father? What's that sound? Sounds like the grasping of straws…

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There is no other Saviour, Master and Lord but God.

Strange, but I could have sworn that Yahweh said He'd send a Savior in Isaiah 19:20…which tells me that the saving is His to begin with but He can grant such authority as He wishes. Can you not see that there can be no other Savior that does not come through Him as the source?

The word master is used throughout the Bible, many times NOT in reference to God. And LORD and Lord are not the same.

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Grow up k, and stop crying “harlot” harlot” “harlot”, everytime something dosnt agree with you.

The harlot church that you call it, believes that Jesus was born of a virgin and died and rose again, so do you dont you?

So I guess you are following the harlots doctrine?

To this I can agree. Let us seek the truth and not accuse other of any heresy or being “harlots” without definitive proof and evidence. Neither side benefits and we all take sides. A house divided cannot stand.

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Grow up k, and stop crying “harlot” harlot” “harlot”, everytime something dosnt agree with you.

The harlot church that you call it, believes that Jesus was born of a virgin and died and rose again, so do you dont you?

So I guess you are following the harlots doctrine?

No she doesn't she believes God died on the cross that God is three persons, THAT is a false God. Or is it three persons plus a spirit? No wait Jesus is the Holy Spirit so God is three persons plus Jesus? No Jesus is one of the three, right?

I posted her doctrines and how they are completely opposite of what Jesus said NOT to do. But still you follow her.

Why does it bother you for me to mention your mother? Don't you follow her doctrines and teach others that they should also?

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Some do not seek truth they seek to confuse. But for all I know WJ may wake up just as Saul did, I pray

IHN&L,

Ken

July 6, 2007 at 4:34 am#58328

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:21)

Catholic? Oh, dear……

The child in swaddling clothes had a Star that guided the Wise men; there were a host of angels that sang from heaven who were rejoicing at his birth; Joseph received one-on-one directions from God Almighty as to how to keep this babe safe. People prophesied over the babe. This was no common babe.

Philippians tells us that while Jesus was who he was, he emptied himself of his privileges and did not seek equality with God (as a Son of a King could do). He humbled himself and “took on” the state or full human condition. Did he have to change anything to do that? Change his nature, or change his skin? No. He merely thought of others as more than himself – he humbled himself. He remained a man as we are with no special privileges.

Why cannot this be true? What is wrong with this theory?

July 6, 2007 at 4:37 am#58330

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,16:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:21)

Catholic? Oh, dear……

Why cannot this be true? What is wrong with this theory?

It's too simple! :laugh:

I'm getting tired sorry

July 6, 2007 at 4:38 am#58331

GeneBalthrop

Participant

nick..> the question is not that he had no sin by how he was able to not sin. it plainly say's he was tempted in all manor of sin like we are but was without sin.

Jesus also said whosoever overcomes even as I have. what did he mean “as i have”.

I believe Jesus overcame his own human nature just like we are suposed too. And that it by his faith and trust in God and by his faith in GOD he was able to overcome. He gave up himself and his will , just as we are suposed to do.

there is a scripture that say's ” for He (GOD) hath keep me from my inquity. i dont recall exactly where right now. but i believe it does say that.

Jesus put his will to death which took him to the ultimate death
and he did it in Obedience to The Father's Will. He also told us those who love their lives will lose it and those who will lose their will save it. This is exactly what He a man like us did.

July 6, 2007 at 4:42 am#58337

kejonn

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,10:44)

Jesus came from heaven as the Word/God that was with the Father to do the Fathers will.

Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Imagine that, the scriptures were written about Jesus!

Uh, are you reading something extra into this? Hebrews 10:7 says “I come…to do thy will, O God”. Psalm 40:7 quote, but how does this prove that Jesus is equal to God? I must be missing the connection. Or you are inserting one that does not exist.

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He means what he says “The Only True God”.

Somehow you and others think this disproves the trinity!

Jesus also says in the passage that to know the “True God” (which he acknowledges as his Father) and Jesus Christ is “Eternal life”.

Wow. Why did Jesus have to slip his name in the verse.

Because he came to die for our sins? Because he did so to do the will of the one true God? Because the New Covenant requires a saving knowledge of Christ? But none of this proves Jesus is in some Trinity. Drop the filter.

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They Knew by their scriptures that God is One. There is no other beside him! In fact Hebrew scriptures say there is none like him! Yet Jesus has the nerve to put his name next to the “True God” as a prerequisite to knowing God and having “Eternal life”.

Again, please provide evidence that such boldness indicates his membership in some Trinity.

“My name is Kevin and I know the true God”. Wow, my name in the same sentence as the true God. Here I come Quadrupality!

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Yet John after writting Jn 17:3 a few chapters later recorded Thomas saying to Jesus “My Lord and MY God”. Did Thomas or Jesus or John forget something? This statement would have been blasphemous. Yet Jesus blesses him and says because you have “Seen Me”.

Man, in the presence of God Himself, and Thomas forgets to fall to his knees in awe and worship. Tsk, tsk, Thomas, you know better! Why, and then John has the sheer audacity to write only mere words later in verse 31 “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” No mention of Son, Father, and Holy Spirit in some Godhead or Trinity. What an opportune time to emphasize the Deity of Christ! John must have been distracted.

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So tell me how Jn 17:3 says Jesus is not God?

Easiest answer yet: one is the true God, one is sent by the true God. Very obvious division there.

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John also wrote these words…

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Quite an amazing statement for a strict Monotheist wouldnt you say to put Jesus right there next to the Father as the “Only True God”?

Already covered that one in an earlier response. You might want to check out the pattern of pronoun usage in that verse.

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And while you are at it please explain why the Father calls Jesus “God” 'Theos” in Hebrews 1:8.

Wouldnt you say the Father thinks Jesus is “True God” also?

That verse is a problem because of the verse that follows it says “Therefore God, Your God”. So even if Jesus was called God, verse 9 says he has a God. I dunno, the God of a God, would be the supreme God, wouldn't you say?

Sorta like saying “Boss, your office is nice. And boss, your boss gave you that office for the hard work you do.” My boss' boss is higher than both of us. Just as a God's God would be.

Good night and god bless.

July 6, 2007 at 4:50 am#58341

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,16:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:21)

Catholic? Oh, dear……

Why cannot this be true? What is wrong with this theory?

Hi not3,
So the Son of God humbled himself
came
and took on our fleshly human nature?

July 6, 2007 at 5:03 am#58348

GeneBalthrop

Participant

kenrch….You are right some filter out the obvious i gess the rose colored trinitarian glass do this.

good night and God bless ………….Gene

July 6, 2007 at 5:03 am#58349

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

Participant

Kejonn

You say…

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John 17:3 says “You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” What further proof do you need then, DNA testing? I don't know about you, but I'm not in the habit of sending myself anywhere. Sounds like some type of mental instability.

Again, John 17:3 is ambiguous as far as saying Jesus is not God. In my opinion the scripture is more supportive of Jesus Deity than not. Why did Jesus just slip his name right along with the Father and state as a prerequisite to having eternal life is to know the Father the “True God” “And” Jesus Christ whom he has sent?

This is would be a bombshell to strict Monotheistic Jews!

This passage aligns beautifully with John 1:1 and John 20:28 and 1 John 5:20!

If John understood what you say about John 17:3, would he have used “Theos” in these passages? I think not.

Show me anyplace in the NT scriptures where the word “Theos” was ascribed in a “True” or “Positive” sence to any being other than the Father and Yahshua!

You assume that because Jesus calls his Father God that Jesus is not God. John would differ with you in John 1:1. And over 600 Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic scholars would disagree with you. A good exegisis is found here…

In fact the Father himself calls Jesus God. I think the Father considers Jesus to be “True God”, wouldn’t you?

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You say…

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Who is the true God? “He” is. Who is “He”? Look at the verse: “him”, “him”, “his Son”, and finally “He”. The kicker is the possessive pronoun “his”. “His son”. Whose son? The Father's. So there you have it: the Father is the true God.

Again, a real shocker here for a strict Monotheistic Jew.

1 John 5:20 KJV
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

NLT
And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we are in God because we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.

NIV
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

ESV
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

NASB
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

You say…

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Who is the true God? “He” is. Who is “He”?

True, but who is the he? The one who gives us an understanding or the one that is “Eternal life”.

1 John 1:1,2 says Yahshua is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, again perfectly aligning with John 1:1 And 17:3.

My contention is that John in 5:20 meant both the Father and the Son is the True God.

For if we are in the Son we are in the Father by “One Spirit” which is another subject!

July 6, 2007 at 5:13 am#58351

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ July 06 2007,15:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:59)

There is only “One Divine Being”!

What gives you that idea? Perhaps we should check out some definitions of “divine”:

emanating from God; “divine judgment”; “divine guidance”;

providential: resulting from divine providence; “providential care”; “a providential visitation”

being or having the nature of a god; “the custom of killing the divine king upon any serious failure of his…powers”-J.G.Frazier; “the divine will”; “the divine capacity for love”;

What are we stepping out of scriptures now for the definition of “Divine”?

I reiterate There is only “One Divine Being found in scriptures”.

Surely you dont believe there is more than “One Deity” do you?

July 6, 2007 at 5:15 am#58352

GeneBalthrop

Participant

worshiping jesus…> take the rose colored trinitarian glasses off. and worship who Jesus worshiped and obeyed. and trust me it wasn't his self he was worshiping.

hope you come to see…… gene

July 6, 2007 at 5:46 am#58354

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2007,17:15)

worshiping jesus…> take the rose colored trinitarian glasses off. and worship who Jesus worshiped and obeyed. and trust me it wasn't his self he was worshiping.

hope you come to see…… gene

You should follow Thomas and the disciples example, and open your eyes to see the truth of who Jesus is!

Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Or maybe you should join in with the tens of thousands!

8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12
**Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb** that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Zech 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

July 6, 2007 at 6:09 am#58356

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:50)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,16:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:21)

Catholic? Oh, dear……

Why cannot this be true? What is wrong with this theory?

Hi not3,
So the Son of God humbled himself
came
and took on our fleshly human nature?

I don't believe Jesus “took on” our flesh nature like you do. I believe he was born with it.

July 6, 2007 at 6:36 am#58358

Participant

Hi not3,
So do I.
Ordinary human nature.
Superman is in the comic books

July 6, 2007 at 6:50 am#58359

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,18:36)

Hi not3,
So do I.
Ordinary human nature.
Superman is in the comic books

Superman is your description, not mine.

Even Superman was just plain ol' “Clark” when he didn't have his cape on. If Jesus wanted to put his cape on (special privileges as the literal Son of God), he could have! He decided not to.

Again, there is nothing “ordinary” about Jesus.
His conception, his life, his death, his resurrection, his after-life…….you call that “ordinary” stuff?

July 6, 2007 at 6:56 am#58360

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,18:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,18:36)

Hi not3,
So do I.
Ordinary human nature.
Superman is in the comic books

Superman is your description, not mine.

Even Superman was just plain ol' “Clark” when he didn't have his cape on. If Jesus wanted to put his cape on (special privileges as the literal Son of God), he could have! He decided not to.

Again, there is nothing “ordinary” about Jesus.
His conception, his life, his death, his resurrection, his after-life…….you call that “ordinary” stuff?

not3

Carefull!

You are starting to sound like a Trinitarian!

July 6, 2007 at 7:11 am#58364

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,18:56)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,18:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,18:36)

Hi not3,
So do I.
Ordinary human nature.
Superman is in the comic books

Superman is your description, not mine.

Even Superman was just plain ol' “Clark” when he didn't have his cape on. If Jesus wanted to put his cape on (special privileges as the literal Son of God), he could have! He decided not to.

Again, there is nothing “ordinary” about Jesus.
His conception, his life, his death, his resurrection, his after-life…….you call that “ordinary” stuff?

not3

Carefull!

You are starting to sound like a Trinitarian!

I've never believed that Jesus was/is “mere” man. Some non-Trinitarians do believe that Jesus is simply a man and is absolutely no different from Peter, Paul or any other man. I've never believed this.

Peter says that Jesus is man. Paul says that Jesus is man. But they both say he is the Son of God.

My son is a man. My son is not the Son of God. There has to be a difference there.

July 6, 2007 at 7:16 am#58365