Preexistence

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 13 2009,22:24)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature.  Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity.  There is absolutely no way of having both.” The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15).  Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man).  If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham? What do other's think?  If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding.  As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception. If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent. Hello Not3 in1, Allow me to comment on this thread, specifically on John Knox’s statement that: “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.” John Knox was a 3 in1 Trinitarian that caused him to be wrong on all three counts of the above statement. Jesus indeed had a human beginning when He was born of His human mother Mary. But, He also preexisted His human birth, but not as Jesus, not as the Son of God, not as a second being in a trinity. He existed as the WORD of God and the WORD of God was always with God, and the WORD of God was God, until the WORD of God BECAME the SON of God 2000 years ago. The WORD of God was not a second God, even though the WORD of God is often personified, for it is living and sharper than any two-edged sword. God is the THINKER (person/being); His WORDS are His THOUGHTS. In the beginning is my word, and my word is with me, and my word is me. That makes ONE person – me. There was but ONE God being, Yahweh Elohim, from the beginning and throughout Old Testament time, until God fathered His (only so) begotten, and firstborn Son whom He named Jesus, in the fullness of time, 2000 years ago. And, if the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are also a born human being and a begotten God being, who will be “born again” by a resurrection from the dead, just as our example Jesus was.

Trini's can't swallow that pill. To them it is Kool-aid.

I like the way you put it in the short and sweet context.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 14 2009,12:39)

Personally I really don't care if you worship a trinitarian golden calf, but you seem so adament to convince us to bow down to your bovine gods.

When they can't refute a thing then as above they resort to attacking the person. As if he is not so adament to convince others that Jesus is not “True Theos” or “One” with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Con

We understand you do not bow down to Jesus as your “ONLY LORD AND MASTER“, Jude 1:4, and give him the same honor that you give the Father. John 5:23

So go ahead and serve your “ONLY LORD AND MASTER“, Jude 1″4 as a mere man. But remember if he is not your Lord and God as Thomas (John 20:28), the Apostles (2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13), and church Fathers taught, then you commit Idolatry!

If he is not your “ONLY LORD AND MASTER“, then you have to get out your white out again to blot this scripture out.

Do you understand what “Only” means? Look it up in the Greek and you may be surprised, but then again probably not.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 14 2009,12:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2009,23:54) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 12 2009,18:28) Your adding. Just like your Catholic translations. And loed does not imply “only Jesus”. Yes, And God (theos) does not imply only the Father! WJ Your absolutly correct, especially if your a trinitarian.

Con

I am glad you see it that way. No other divine being except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.

So is Jesus “True Theos” or not? If he is then you have a problem because you say that he is not God, “Theos”!

If you say he is “a god” then you have another problem, its called Polytheism.

When are you going to accept the scriptures that says he is “Theos”? When are you going to call him your “Theos”?

Do you have a case of whiteout at home?  

WJ

[chosenone]

2Cor.4:3-4.

3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing,
4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.

Why stop at three gods? We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”.

Blessings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,15:16)

2Cor.4:3-4.  3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.   Why stop at three gods?  We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”. Blessings.

CO

Obviously you did not read my post.

“No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine?

We know there are false gods, but is Jesus in the same class?

Apparently you think so! Which would mean you are serving a false “theos”.

WJ

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,02:39)

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,15:16) 2Cor.4:3-4.  3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.   Why stop at three gods?  We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”. Blessings. CO Obviously you did not read my post. “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? We know there are false gods, but is Jesus in the same class? Apparently you think so! Which would mean you are serving a false “theos”. WJ

Are you stating Jesus is divine because he is called “theos” and “theos” means divine because it applies to Jesus. I ask because that certainly seems what your argument is. If so then it is a circular argument.

[terraricca]

hi wj
God is not a trinity,you make Christ a liar look John 14;28
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 14 2009,16:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,02:39) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,15:16) 2Cor.4:3-4.  3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.   Why stop at three gods?  We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”. Blessings. CO Obviously you did not read my post. “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? We know there are false gods, but is Jesus in the same class? Apparently you think so! Which would mean you are serving a false “theos”. WJ Are you stating Jesus is divine because he is called “theos” and “theos” means divine because it applies to Jesus.  I ask because that certainly seems what your argument is.  If so then it is a circular argument.

kerwin

No I am saying what I said. There is no need for implication.

It is simple…

“No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine?

So rather than make implications just find me an example and when you realize that there are none then you will see that the Apostles only believed in “One True God” and that obviously according to the Apostles included only the Father and the Son, and since the “Lord is that Spirit” 2 Cor 3:17, then that also includes the Holy Spirit, Acts 20:28, and Matt 28:18, 19. For there is only “ONE Spirit”, not two or three!

'theos” does not define identity or nature but a class of being whether it be true or false.

Again the point being that Apostles didn't refer to any other as “True Theos” except the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are one.

The whole council of God in scriptures teachs the plurality of unity in One God!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26)

hi wj God is not a trinity,you make Christ a liar look John 14;28 Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

terraricca

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26)

hi wj God is not a trinity,

Presto, terraricca knows everything about the nature of God.

terraricca also denys scripture that say Jesus is God.

Presto the Trintarian debate is finished because terraricca says so.

   

But, terraricca cannot explain why Paul and the Apostles say things like…

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………..We all who have GOD'S Spirit are Sons of GOD, Just as Jesus is, where is the difference then. Is not Jesus called our brother, is that true or not , and if it is true then are we  GOD'S too. do we not also have the divine Nature (HOLY SEED) In us TOO?. Why limit it to a trinity,  rather say thousands of God's then. One (GOD) Spirit in ALL and Through ALL, right?  That would hold up better then you triune GOD Theologies. IMO

peace and love…………gene

[chosenone]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,07:39)

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,15:16) 2Cor.4:3-4.  3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.   Why stop at three gods?  We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”. Blessings. CO Obviously you did not read my post. “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? We know there are false gods, but is Jesus in the same class? Apparently you think so! Which would mean you are serving a false “theos”. WJ

JW.
I'm not sure what translation of scriptures you use, my bible, the 'Concordant Literal New Testament' (IMO is the best translation), does not contain the word “Theos”. Where does this word exist in your bible, I would like to look it up in the 'Interlinear Scripture Analyser' to see what Greek word it is translated from.

Blessings.

[chosenone]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,08:36)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26) hi wj God is not a trinity,you make Christ a liar look John 14;28 Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. terraricca Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26) hi wj God is not a trinity, Presto, terraricca knows everything about the nature of God. terraricca also denys scripture that say Jesus is God. Presto the Trintarian debate is finished because terraricca says so.     But, terraricca cannot explain why Paul and the Apostles say things like… while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 WJ

JW.

You quote Titus2:13, as an argument for the trinity, that if read in context, and correctly translated thusly:

Titus2:9-13… 9 Slaves are to be subject to their own owners, to be well-pleasing in all things, not contradicting;
10 not embezzling, but displaying all good faithfulness, that they may be adorning the teaching that is of God, our Saviour, in all things.
11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,
12 training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon,
13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,

I believe this is identifying our “great God” and our “Saviour Jesus Christ” (both). Not our “great God and Saviour” (one)

The same as 1Tim4:9-11… 9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.
Notice… God, who is the saviour of all mankind…

Blessings.

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

“No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.”, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine?

There are others but Jesus and God that are called “theos” in the New Testament.  It does not mean they are divine.  The writers were attempting to translate Hebrew ideas into the Greek language so “theos” is used equivalently to “elohim” and not necessary how the Greeks themselves would use it.

It is used over 1000 times in the New Testament.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2009,00:45)

Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.”, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? There are others but Jesus and God that are called “theos” in the New Testament.  It does not mean they are divine.  The writers were attempting to translate Hebrew ideas into the Greek language so “theos” is used equivalently to “elohim” and not necessary how the Greeks themselves would use it. It is used over 1000 times in the New Testament.

Kerwin

That still does not explain why the Apostles called Jesus “Their theos”, and never once ever mentioned any other as such but the Father and the Holy Spirit!

Neither does any of the early church Fathers call any other their God BTW.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,18:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,07:39) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,15:16) 2Cor.4:3-4.  3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.   Why stop at three gods?  We could have a quadity (4), as in “the god of this eon”. Blessings. CO Obviously you did not read my post. “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.“, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? We know there are false gods, but is Jesus in the same class? Apparently you think so! Which would mean you are serving a false “theos”. WJ JW.   I'm not sure what translation of scriptures you use, my bible, the 'Concordant Literal New Testament' (IMO is the best translation), does not contain the word “Theos”.  Where does this word exist in your bible, I would like to look it up in the 'Interlinear Scripture Analyser' to see what Greek word it is translated from. Blessings.

Greek for God is Strong's G2316 – theos θεός!

WJ

[terraricca]

hi choseone
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,08:36)
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26)

hi wj
God is not a trinity,you make Christ a liar look John 14;28
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

terraricca

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26)
hi wj
God is not a trinity,

Presto, terraricca knows everything about the nature of God.

terraricca also denys scripture that say Jesus is God.

Presto the Trintarian debate is finished because terraricca says so.

But, terraricca cannot explain why Paul and the Apostles say things like…

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

yes i can;

paul was telling the truth ;Paul never forget to mention the thank to his God the father who is the one who as the will and power to make it all come trough and thanks to the Son for willingly having given is live in ransom for us Jesus christ.

this is the truth in deed

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 14 2009,19:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,08:36) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26) hi wj God is not a trinity,you make Christ a liar look John 14;28 Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. terraricca Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2009,16:26) hi wj God is not a trinity, Presto, terraricca knows everything about the nature of God. terraricca also denys scripture that say Jesus is God. Presto the Trintarian debate is finished because terraricca says so.     But, terraricca cannot explain why Paul and the Apostles say things like… while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 WJ JW.   You quote Titus2:13, as an argument for the trinity, that if read in context, and correctly translated thusly: Titus2:9-13…  9 Slaves are to be subject to their own owners, to be well-pleasing in all things, not contradicting; 10 not embezzling, but displaying all good faithfulness, that they may be adorning the teaching that is of God, our Saviour, in all things. 11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity, 12 training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon, 13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,   I believe this is identifying our “great God” and our “Saviour Jesus Christ” (both).  Not our “great God and Saviour” (one)   The same as 1Tim4:9-11… 9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. 11 These things be charging and teaching.   Notice… God, who is the saviour of all mankind… Blessings.

CO

Nowhere does the scriptures claim we are looking for the Father to come again or to appear! The word “Appear” in the verse in every case it is used in the NT is speaking of Jesus!

The Grandville Sharp rule is at play in the verse which means since there is only one article for the words “God and Saviour” they are the same referent.

The GSR has never been refuted!

WJ

[terraricca]

hi WJ
the word can not be broken, right

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2009,12:09)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 15 2009,00:45) Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote “No other DIVINE BEING except the Father and Jesus (who are “One”) is called “Theos” by the Father or the Apostles or any followers of Jesus in the NT.”, unless you believe Jesus is not Divine? There are others but Jesus and God that are called “theos” in the New Testament.  It does not mean they are divine.  The writers were attempting to translate Hebrew ideas into the Greek language so “theos” is used equivalently to “elohim” and not necessary how the Greeks themselves would use it. It is used over 1000 times in the New Testament. Kerwin That still does not explain why the Apostles called Jesus “Their theos”, and never once ever mentioned any other as such but the Father and the Holy Spirit! Neither does any of the early church Fathers call any other their God BTW. WJ

That is a little more information than I had before to go on. I have not looked into the subject. Thank for clarifying your point of view.

[terraricca]

hi WJ
you also can not separete Christ from is father or God from is SON the Son have is father aproval because he always does what the father wants him to do,that is why Christ always said all the thing i do the father do it trough me,the father aproved is Son and withness this through the miracles Christ did.
the relation between God and Christ is SON are the LOVE totaly shared to the full perfection.

[Author]

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