Preexistence

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

strongs Concordance gives the primary definition as statement or speech and includes later “divine expression” (ie Christ) but this is a doctrinal definition and not a definition derived from the word itself.

The idea of “speech” is present because “logos” is the noun form of the root “legoo.” The root refers to one who speaks. So the idea of the Logos being personal is derived from the word in is root form.

Martian:

Quote

As I thought. You have taken the secondary meaning listed in Vines and made it the primary meaning to fit your doctrine.

Just as I thought. You read the dictionaries as you read the Bible. Read Vine's again. He does NOT say that the word “logos” as the “Personal title of the Son of God” is a secondary meaning. That he lists it as second does not infer he means that it is a secondary meaning. In fact, Vine asserts that the Logos as the “Personal Word” is THE meaning in John 1:1. You even cited what he said and still missed it.

Give it up dude! It is intellectual suicide to say that an impersonal “expression of thought” created and became flesh. You appear foolish. Your conclusions are self refuting because they are absurd.
Your views are Platonic and not Christian.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

Do you need to in essence lie to support your doctrine? You post the secondary meaning of logos and fail to post the primary meaning.

First, it is you who says “secondary” meaning. I don't see the dictionaries saying that. Second, I have not denied that “logos” means speech. I have said that it is not mere speech because its root is “legoo” which refers to one who speaks.

Note the change you have made. Up until now you have denied that “logos” has any personal reference to Christ. Now you acknowledge this as a “secondary” meaning weakening your own case.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2009,12:28)

The use as “Christ” is listed from a doctrinal aspect and not from a language reason. Not even the context does it demand a definition of Christ. Expressed idea works as well WITH the rest of the Greek words.

Why not let John who was inspired to write John 1:1 define the meaning of the word [logos] in the verse…?

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3.

But, of course your doctrine is more important than Johns own words!

A thought or plan did not come in the flesh for God is not a “thought or plan”, but the Word that was with God and was God did come in the flesh and we beheld his glory the same glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world. John 1:14 John 17:5

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it but only pure hearts that let the scriptures speak for themselves!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 10 2009,03:36)

thinker…..> i believe you would qualify  more as a Novice then Martian by far, seeing you have yet to understand Jesus' prayer “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> And again Jesus quoting “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD (OUR) GOD IS ONE LORD”> Jesus fully understood that GOD was ONE,not two or three triune anythings. How can you belittle another when you don't even understand the simple truth's. IMO gene

Gene,
Is Stephen Charnock a novice?

The FATHER is called likewise, the “true GOD,” in opposition to idols; for when CHRIST says all power was given to him, that he might give eternal life to as many as were given to him, those that were given to him were among the Gentiles as well as the Jews; he here respects them both. The Gentiles worshipped many gods, the Jews worshipped one GOD, but rejected CHRIST as Medi­ator. Now the knowledge of both is necessary to salva­tion. In the first clause he respects the multiplicity of heathen gods, in the other the Jewish contempt of the Mediator. So, then, the expression excludes only the heathen idols. In 1 Thess. 1: 9: “How you turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God.” God is called the true God in opposition to idols.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_we….rt8.htm

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Martian said;

Quote

The use as “Christ” is listed from a doctrinal aspect and not from a language reason. Not even the context does it demand a definition of Christ. Expressed idea works as well WITH the rest of the Greek words.

It has already been shown you that the word “logos” is a reference to Christ. Verse 14 says that the Word became flesh and that He is the Father's “begotten.” Verse 18 says that the “begotten” is the “Son.” Ergo….

The Logos = the Begotten = the Son = Christ.

No degree in rocket science is needed my friend.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

thinker……..if all power was (GIVEN) to him obviously He did not originally have it right?.

gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 10 2009,06:15)

thinker……..if all power was (GIVEN) to him obviously He did not originally have it right?.   gene

He did not have it because He voluntarily gave it up (Philippians 2). Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

thinker……..So he gave it up and then GOD Gave it back to Him, right> But no scripture say He gave it up and GOD gave it Back to him (AGAIN) that is an assumption on you part. In fact no scripture even say he ever had all power before his berth into existence here on earth. Please show us where any scriptures say Jesus had all power in heaven and earth before he came to earth and was resurrected, as you suppose. No where does scripture say He was given (BACK) his POWER as far as i KNOW. But then no scripture say many things you Trinitarians come up with, but that does not seem to slow you people down any. IMO

gene

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,00:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ

I am not sure the point you are trying to make as I assure you that I believe Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth.   My point is that all believers bear the same name as the one you mentioned in Revelations.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2009,01:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,00:25) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ I am not sure the point you are trying to make as I assure you that I believe Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth.   My point is that all believers bear the same name as the one you mentioned in Revelations.

Kerwin

How do you figure? The name “Lord Jesus Christ” does not equate to “The Word of God”.

His name is also Emmanuel, Wonderful, counselor, the mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace, Lord of Lords, King of Kings.

Can you say any of those are “your” name?

We bear his name as ambassadors much like US Ambassadors bear the Presidents name, but we would be imposters and traders if we claimed to be the President!

John tells us who the Word is by personifying the word “logos” in Revealation 19:13 to being Jesus.

WJ

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,12:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2009,01:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,00:25) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ I am not sure the point you are trying to make as I assure you that I believe Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth.   My point is that all believers bear the same name as the one you mentioned in Revelations. Kerwin How do you figure? The name “Lord Jesus Christ” does not equate to “The Word of God”. His name is also Emmanuel, Wonderful, counselor, the mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace, Lord of Lords, King of Kings. Can you say any of those are “your” name? We bear his name as ambassadors much like US Ambassadors bear the Presidents name, but we would be imposters and traders if we claimed to be the President! John tells us who the Word is by personifying the word “logos” in Revealation 19:13 to being Jesus. WJ

Anyone who walks according to the ways of the Spirit is the personification of God's Word. If you do not walk according to the ways of the Spirit then you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2009,02:05)

[Anyone who walks according to the ways of the Spirit is the personification of God's Word.  If you do not walk according to the ways of the Spirit then you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Kerwin

You mean the personification of Jesus who is the “Word” right?

Are we not supposed to bear “His, Jesus Image”?

Now we are getting somewhere!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 10 2009,13:18)

thinker……..So he gave it up and then GOD Gave it back to Him, right>  But no scripture say He gave it up and GOD gave it Back to him (AGAIN) that is an assumption on you part. In fact no scripture even say he ever had all power before his berth into existence here on earth.  Please show us where any scriptures say Jesus had all power in heaven and earth before he came to earth and was resurrected, as you suppose. No where does scripture say He was given (BACK) his POWER as far as i KNOW. But then no scripture say many things you Trinitarians come up with, but that does not seem to slow you people down any. IMO gene

Gene,
Jesus asked that He be glorified with the glory that He had with the Father before the world began. The “glory” is all encompassing for His power and majesty. Therefore, He shared power and majesty with the Father before the world began.

Jude verses 4-5 say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt and punished those who did not believe:

ESV:
4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

NASB:
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Choose one of the translations above. The ESV says that it was Jesus who delivered the people from Egypt. The NASB says it was the Lord who saved them. It does not matter which you choose because both translations agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (verse 4). So either way it was Jesus who saved the people from Egypt.

Does this not prove that Jesus had power before He came into the world but gave it up?

As the term “only Lord” in reference to Jesus does not exclude the Father so the term “only God” in reference to the Father does not exclude Jesus as Stephen Charnock has aptly shown.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 10 2009,11:28)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 10 2009,13:18) thinker……..So he gave it up and then GOD Gave it back to Him, right>  But no scripture say He gave it up and GOD gave it Back to him (AGAIN) that is an assumption on you part. In fact no scripture even say he ever had all power before his berth into existence here on earth.  Please show us where any scriptures say Jesus had all power in heaven and earth before he came to earth and was resurrected, as you suppose. No where does scripture say He was given (BACK) his POWER as far as i KNOW. But then no scripture say many things you Trinitarians come up with, but that does not seem to slow you people down any. IMO gene Gene, Jesus asked that He be glorified with the glory that He had with the Father before the world began. The “glory” is all encompassing for His power and majesty. Therefore, He shared power and majesty with the Father before the world began. Jude verses 4-5 say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt and punished those who did not believe: ESV: 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. NASB: 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. Choose one of the translations above. The ESV says that it was Jesus who delivered the people from Egypt. The NASB says it was the Lord who saved them. It does not matter which you choose because both translations agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (verse 4). So either way it was Jesus who saved the people from Egypt. Does this not prove that Jesus had power before He came into the world but gave it up? As the term “only Lord” in reference to Jesus does not exclude the Father so the term “only God” in reference to the Father does not exclude Jesus as Stephen Charnock has aptly shown. thinker

Jack

Good points, but somehow I think that if Jesus himself were standing here and said this they still wouldn't believe.

Truly Jesus did save them for he was the “Rock” that followed them in the wilderness as the scriptures clearly teach.

They are afraid of the thought that if he preexisted that he must be more than a mere man.

They are right!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker………YOU are saying Glory includes all encompassing Power, but where does Scripture say that, that is the meaning of Glory. And again that glory was a (PREDESTINED GLORY) scriptures says that Jesus would recieve, it existed only in the plan of GOD , that He would take from (MAN) and (MAN) and (PERFECT) HIM and bring HIM to this (PREPLANNED) GLORY, we to are to recieve this GLORY as joint heirs of Jesus it is a shared glory given from (ONE) TRUE GOD, “for the kingdom shall eb given to the Saints of the MOST HIGH.< from the Father of ALL CREATION, including Jesus. IMO

peace and love……………….gene

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,05:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ

Are you still tying the same old trick?
You are taking an attribute of Christ after his resurrection and comparing it to what we are to follow before his resurrection.
YHWH gives Christ all power in heaven and Earth.
Yhwh puts everything under subjection to the man Christ. this makes him Lord of Lord (master of masters) and King of Kings (king of all earthly kings)
When all is done Christ puts himself and the kingdom back under subjection of the father. (co-equal?)

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 11 2009,03:51)

Thinker………YOU are saying Glory includes all encompassing Power, but where does Scripture say that, that is the meaning of Glory. And again that glory was a (PREDESTINED GLORY) scriptures says that Jesus would recieve, it existed only in the plan of GOD , that He would take from (MAN) and (MAN) and (PERFECT) HIM and bring HIM to this (PREPLANNED) GLORY, we to are to recieve this GLORY as joint heirs of Jesus it is a shared glory given from (ONE) TRUE GOD, “for the kingdom shall eb given to the Saints of the MOST HIGH.< from the Father of ALL CREATION, including Jesus.  IMO peace and love……………….gene

Gene,
This is getting ridiculous. John 2 says that Christ's changing the water into wine was a manifestation of His glory:

“This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.”

What aspect of His glory did He manifest if not His power? Again, what aspect of His glory did Jesus manifest if not His power?

Are you going to reply to Jude verses 4-5 which say that it was Jesus who delivered the people out of Egypt? Or do you have your bottle of white out ready? And what about Jude's statement that Jesus is the “ONLY Lord and Master?” If you admit that the Father is not excluded then you must reconsider John 17:3.

You're backed in a corner Gene.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2009,03:45)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 10 2009,11:28) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 10 2009,13:18) thinker……..So he gave it up and then GOD Gave it back to Him, right>  But no scripture say He gave it up and GOD gave it Back to him (AGAIN) that is an assumption on you part. In fact no scripture even say he ever had all power before his berth into existence here on earth.  Please show us where any scriptures say Jesus had all power in heaven and earth before he came to earth and was resurrected, as you suppose. No where does scripture say He was given (BACK) his POWER as far as i KNOW. But then no scripture say many things you Trinitarians come up with, but that does not seem to slow you people down any. IMO gene Gene, Jesus asked that He be glorified with the glory that He had with the Father before the world began. The “glory” is all encompassing for His power and majesty. Therefore, He shared power and majesty with the Father before the world began. Jude verses 4-5 say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt and punished those who did not believe: ESV: 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. NASB: 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. Choose one of the translations above. The ESV says that it was Jesus who delivered the people from Egypt. The NASB says it was the Lord who saved them. It does not matter which you choose because both translations agree that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Master and Lord (verse 4). So either way it was Jesus who saved the people from Egypt. Does this not prove that Jesus had power before He came into the world but gave it up? As the term “only Lord” in reference to Jesus does not exclude the Father so the term “only God” in reference to the Father does not exclude Jesus as Stephen Charnock has aptly shown. thinker Jack Good points, but somehow I think that if Jesus himself were standing here and said this they still wouldn't believe. Truly Jesus did save them for he was the “Rock” that followed them in the wilderness as the scriptures clearly teach. They are afraid of the thought that if he preexisted that he must be more than a mere man. They are right! WJ

Keith,

We already know that they believe that it was a literal rock who followed the people. They would rather have a literal rock as Savior than Jesus as Savior.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 10 2009,12:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,05:25) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ Are you still tying the same old trick? You are taking an attribute of Christ after his resurrection and comparing it to what we are to follow before his resurrection. YHWH gives Christ all power in heaven and Earth. Yhwh puts everything under subjection to the man Christ. this makes him Lord of Lord (master of masters) and King of Kings (king of all earthly kings) When all is done Christ puts himself and the kingdom back under subjection of the father. (co-equal?)

Martian

Are you still following the same fallacious line of reasoning?

How about when you are resurrected and become like him will you be like him in that way?

Will the Angels worship you? Will the Spirit proceed from you and the Father to all of Creation? Rev 22:1

Jesus had the Spirit “without measure”, do you know what that means?

Only God could have the Spirit without measure. Therefore your logic fails for no man singularly has or ever had or ever will have that. That was before his resurrection and gave him an advantage over us. So much for that straw man!

Are you only serving another anointed man in the flesh or a resurrected Jesus?

Another point is if Jesus puts himself and the Kingdom into subjection to the Father so that God can be all in all,
then that would mean that Jesus and the Kingdom at this time is not subject to the Father!!!  

Hello, that means that he is equal to the Father! Remember he is on the right hand of the Father, not beneath him nor above him but at his right hand!

So much for that straw man too.

WJ

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2009,04:52)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 10 2009,12:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 10 2009,05:25) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Yes Kerwin And who else is every knee going to bow to? Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”? WJ Are you still tying the same old trick? You are taking an attribute of Christ after his resurrection and comparing it to what we are to follow before his resurrection. YHWH gives Christ all power in heaven and Earth. Yhwh puts everything under subjection to the man Christ. this makes him Lord of Lord (master of masters) and King of Kings (king of all earthly kings) When all is done Christ puts himself and the kingdom back under subjection of the father. (co-equal?) Martian Are you still following the same fallacious line of reasoning? How about when you are resurrected and become like him will you be like him in that way? Will the Angels worship you? Will the Spirit proceed from you and the Father to all of Creation? Rev 22:1 Jesus had the Spirit “without measure”, do you know what that means? Only God could have the Spirit without measure. Therefore your logic fails for no man singularly has or ever had or ever will have that. That was before his resurrection and gave him an advantage over us. So much for that straw man! Are you only serving another anointed man in the flesh or a resurrected Jesus? Another point is if Jesus puts himself and the Kingdom into subjection to the Father so that God can be all in all, then that would mean that Jesus and the Kingdom at this time is not subject to the Father!!!   Hello, that means that he is equal to the Father! Remember he is on the right hand of the Father, not beneath him nor above him but at his right hand! So much for that straw man too. WJ

TALK ABOUT GAMES. YOU AGAIN TAKE THINGS THAT ARE AFTER HIS RESURRECTION AND PUT THEM BEFORE.

Can God give authority to a man if He wishes?
Did God Give Christ all authority in heaven and earth?

You know what I give up. You are thinker are right.God is triune and Jesus is God.
NOW WHAT?
HOW DOES THAT HELP ME?
HOW DOES THAT EDIFY ME?
HOW DOES SHOW CHRIST TO ME AS AN EXAMPLE?
HOW DO I KNOW WHICH OF THE THINGS CHRIST DID I CAN DO?
HOW CAN I TRUST IN A GOD WHOSE CHARACTER CAN CHANGE TO BE TEMPTABLE OR CAPABLE OF SIN?

IS THAT AL YOU HAVE IS GREEK TENSES AND PHILOSOPHY GOOD FOR NOTHING BUT DEBATE ON A FORUM? WHAT A WASTE FOR EVERYONE!!!

Is all you are lookin
g for is some intellectual understanding to flaunt about? Even realizing that all of our intellects can be fooled and deceived. (even those that teach tenses in Greek)

IF FLAUNTING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF GREEK GETS YOU KUDOS FROM THINKER AND OTHERS, HAVE AT IT.  ENJOY YOURSELF.

As for me I will take a Christ that is a perfect example for me and a gospel truth that actually does something in my life.

In the end you have nothing but a supposed intellectual understanding that produces nothing. Your doctrine is a philosophical joke!!!

It makes no difference what you or your supposed experts say. If it produces no fruit, it is worthless except as a philosophy.

[Author]

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