Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word.

Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]?

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:51)

secondly  WJ  just where did Peter get his credentials or James or John. You swear by their words yet they had no formal training. Now you will probably say they were anointed by God to write the scriptures or that they were taught by Jesus himself.    Has  all of that stopped. Can God not anoint others to write or has Jesus stopped teaching people about his word?

Martian

I noticed you didn't mention the Apostle Paul who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and trained by the very best of his day and wrote 2 thirds of the NT.

Yes God is still speaking, but what he is speaking will never contradict the inspired scriptures that we have. If you believe that then you need to become a Muslim or something like that!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

wj……Do you even understand what the term “an Hebrew of the Hebrews” means, I'll tell you, Paul's was of the tribe of Benjamin , if you look up the history of the Hebrews you will find at one time the tribe of Benjamin was destroyed except for 600 males and in order to save the tribe because they had no Benjamin women left after their Hebrew brother attack and kill but 600 males of their tribe, the rest of the tribes gave them women from their tribes to continue the tribe . Hence the term used by Paul, “an Hebrew of the Hebrews”. So really him saying that had nothing to do with you point you were trying to make brother.

Another point i would like to bring out here is that all scripture was (ORIGINALLY) HEBREW or Aramaic, the Greeks came along later and their language is (NOT) the same . The Breans searched to OLD Testament (Hebrew) to see if what they hear was true or not. Any time you changes (ANY) language problems will occur in terms and phrases of the dialect being translated into. I have found what is in the New testament, if it does not conform with the old testament in intent, then a problem in transliteration exists. The OLD (HEBREW) text is most accurate i think , i tend to agree with the Breans on this. As far as Jeff Benner goes i like His (HEBREW) (MECHANICAL) explanations given of the ancient Hebrew language He is well versed IMO. I have no idea of his Greek ties whatsoever, I don't think he claims to be a Greek Scholar either, as far as i know. You should check out his Book on the Mechanical translation of Genesis . i think you would find it very interesting…. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……….Here is some interesting things Jeff Benner has brought out, for instance there is NO Hebrew word for CREATE did you know that?, the word used in Genesis is (FATTING THE EARTH) THEY UNDERSTOOD IT AS GOD WAS FILLING IT UP much like fattening a cow or animal. We look at it like GOD was filling the earth up by creating things in it. Another interesting point he brought out was the Word for GOD in the original language the pictorial language of the Hebrew's, there was the Ox head with a walking cane next to it. This was the first Pictorial word for GOD, it meant the Ox was a strong Power and the cane was what you leaned on or trusted in for support. That is how they described GOD. I think you would find His research very interesting. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………….gene

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ

Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads:

Quote

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

[terraricca]

hi all

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind

[banana]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2009,17:55)

hi all Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind

Yes, I have been puting these Scriptures and others up and Gene and Martian just ignore them. I believe that God has to revela all the truths to you otherwise one will not believe them.
Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2009,06:47)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word.

What Bible “dictionaries” are you reading? Strong's# 3056 says that the Logos is “Divine expression (i.e., Christ).” Vine's Expository Dictionary says that the logos is “the personal word, a title of the Son of God” (p. 229).

The Analytical Greek Lexicon says that “logos” is from “legoo” which means “to speak.”

What is “silly” is your notion that impersonal speech can create and become flesh and exegete God.

thinker

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 08 2009,23:27)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2009,17:55) hi all Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind Yes, I have been puting these Scriptures and others up and Gene and Martian just ignore them.  I believe that God has to revela all the truths to you otherwise one will not believe them. Irene

The whole chapter is about “WISDOM”! Every verse in Proverbs 8 is about “WISDOM”!

Too bad you make it out to be more than it is.

[Constitutionalist]

Pro 8:1-36 . Contrasted with sensual allurements are the advantages of divine wisdom, which publicly invites men, offers the best principles of life, and the most valuable benefits resulting from receiving her counsels.

Her relation to the divine plans and acts is introduced, as in Pro 3:19, 20 , though more fully, to commend her desirableness for men, and the whole is closed by an assurance that those finding her find God's favor, and those neglecting ruin themselves.

Many regard the passage as a description of the Son of God by the title, Wisdom, which the older Jews used (and by which He is called in Luk 11:49 ), as Jhn 1:1 , &c., describes Him by that of Logos, the Word.

But the passage may be taken as a personification of wisdom: for, (1) Though described as with God, wisdom is not asserted to be God. (2) The use of personal attributes is equally consistent with a personification, as with the description of a real person. (3) The personal pronouns used accord with the gender (feminine) of wisdom constantly, and are never changed to that of the person meant, as sometimes occurs in a corresponding use of spirit, which is neuter in Greek, but to which masculine pronouns are often applied ( Jhn 16:14 ), when the acts of the Holy Spirit are described. (4) Such a personification is agreeable to the style of this book (compare Pro 1:20 3:16, 17 4:8 6:20-22 9:1-4 ), whereas no prophetical or other allusions to the Saviour or the new dispensation are found among the quotations of this book in the New Testament, and unless this be such, none exist. (5) Nothing is lost as to the importance of this passage, which still remains a most ornate and also solemn and impressive teaching of inspiration on the value of wisdom.

1-4. The publicity and universality of the call contrast with the secrecy and intrigues of the wicked ( Pro 7:8 , &c.).

5. wisdom–literally, “subtilty” in a good sense, or, “prudence.”
fools–as Pro 1:22 .

6. excellent things–or, “plain,” “manifest.”
opening . . . things–upright words.

7. For . . . truth–literally, “My palate shall meditate,” or (as Orientals did) “mutter,” my thoughts expressed only to myself are truth.
wickedness–specially falsehood, as opposed to truth.

8. in righteousness–or, “righteous” ( Psa 9:8 11:7 ).
froward–literally, “twisted,” or contradictory, that is, to truth.

9. plain . . . understandeth–easily seen by those who apply their minds.
that find–implying search.

10. not silver–preferable to it, so last clause implies comparison.

11. (Compare Pro 3:14, 15 ).

12. prudence–as in Pro 8:5 . The connection of “wisdom” and “prudence” is that of the dictates of sound wisdom and its application.
find . . . inventions–or, “devices,” “discreet ways” ( Pro 1:4 ).

13. For such is the effect of the fear of God, by which hatred to evil preserves from it.
froward mouth–or, “speech” ( Pro 2:12 6:14 ).

14. It also gives the elements of good character in counsel.
sound wisdom– ( Pro 2:7 ).
I . . . strength–or, “As for me, understanding is strength to me,” the source of power ( Ecc 9:16 ); good judgment gives more efficiency to actions;

15, 16. of which a wisely conducted government is an example.

17. early–or, “diligently,” which may include the usual sense of early in life.

18. durable riches . . . righteousness–Such are the “riches,” enduring sources of happiness in moral possessions (compare Pro 3:16 ).

19. (Compare Pro 8:11 3:16 ).

20, 21. The courses in which wisdom leads conduct to a true present prosperity ( Pro 23:5 ).

22-31. Strictly, God's attributes are part of Himself. Yet, to the poetical structure of the whole passage, this commendation of wisdom is entirely consonant. In order of time all His attributes are coincident and eternal as Himself. But to set forth the importance of wisdom as devising the products of benevolence and power, it is here assigned a precedence. As it has such in divine, so should it be desired in human, affairs (compare Pro 3:19 ).
possessed–or, “created”; in either sense, the idea of precedence.
in the beginning–or simply, “beginning,” in apposition with “me.”
before . . . of old–preceding the most ancient deeds.

23. I was set up–ordained, or inaugurated ( Psa 2:6 ). The other terms carry out the idea of the earliest antiquity, and illustrate it by the details of creation ( Pro 8:24-29 ).

24. brought forth–(Compare Psa 90:2 ).
abounding–or, “laden with water.”

25. settled–that is, sunk in foundations.

26. fields–or, “out places,” “deserts,” as opposite to (habitable) “world.”
highest part–or, “sum,” all particles together,

27. when he set . . . depth–marked out the circle, according to the popular idea of the earth, as circular, surrounded by depths on which the visible concave heavens rested.

28. established . . . deep–that is, so as to sustain the waters above and repress those below the firmament ( Gen 1:7-11 Job 26:8 ).

29. commandment–better, the shore, that is, of the sea.
foundations–figuratively denotes the solid structure ( Job 38:4 Psa 24:2 ).

30, 31. one brought up–an object of special and pleasing regard. The bestowal of wisdom on men is represented by its finding a delightful residence and pleasing God.

32-36. Such an attribute men are urged to seek.

34. watching . . . waiting–literally, “so as to watch”; wait, denoting a most sedulous attention.

35. (Compare Luk 13:23, 24 ).

36. sinneth . . . me–or better, “missing me,” as opposed to “finding” ( Pro 8:35 ).
love death–act as if they did (compare Pro 17:9 ).

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown
Commentary on Proverbs 8
http://www.blueletterbible.org/comment….Pro_8_1

[KangarooJack]

Constitutionalist said:

Quote

But the passage may be taken as a personification of wisdom:

Con,
We agree on something. Proverbs 8 is referring to wisdom personified. Chapter 9:1-3 substantiates this. It is one continuous thought.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,10:41)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:51) secondly  WJ  just where did Peter get his credentials or James or John. You swear by their words yet they had no formal training. Now you will probably say they were anointed by God to write the scriptures or that they were taught by Jesus himself.    Has  all of that stopped. Can God not anoint others to write or has Jesus stopped teaching people about his word? Martian I noticed you didn't mention the Apostle Paul who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and trained by the very best of his day and wrote 2 thirds of the NT. Yes God is still speaking, but what he is speaking will never contradict the inspired scriptures that we have. If you believe that then you need to become a Muslim or something like that! WJ

WJ,
Good point. Two thirds of the new testament was written by Paul a Hebrew scholar. Peter seems to acknowledge his own inferiority to Paul (2 Peter 3). And it was Paul who corrected the churches when they erred and it was Paul who set the rules for those who had the gifts of knowledge and prophecy.

Even those apostles who were not “educated” were inspired by God when they wrote the scriptures. So they were in no way novices like Martian.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

Con……> Yes wisdom is the chief of all of GOD'S attributes, it's is much to be desired. An interesting thing is it was exactly what Adam and Eve were after, a fruit much to be desired to make one wise. Is brought about by the (KNOWLEDGE) of good and evil, and this knowledge is gained by experiencing them (good and evil) and it does produce wisdom. Even GOD said “look the man has become as we are to Know (experience) good and evil. It may be a hard way to learn but who knows it may be the best way too, as said “experience is the best teacher”.

Dear Irene gets wisdom confused with Jesus, while it is true Jesus certainly had wisdom, this is not what Ps 8:22-31 was talking about.

Con …> another interesting thing i was thinking about is even the serpent was described as wise, we are told to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. This came to my attention when you brought out the seductiveness of wisdom. It is said the serpent seduced Eve, in to disobeying GOD. What he said was not wrong per say because the experience of good and evil does make you wiser, but in this alluring of truth, she was also decieved into disobeying GOD at the same time. So it does appear wisdom can be used for good, but also can be used for evil by alluring us what seems good. “there is a way that (seems) good but the end is sin and death”, Good post brother, IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

thinker…..> i believe you would qualify more as a Novice then Martian by far, seeing you have yet to understand Jesus' prayer “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> And again Jesus quoting “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD (OUR) GOD IS ONE LORD”> Jesus fully understood that GOD was ONE,not two or three triune anythings. How can you belittle another when you don't even understand the simple truth's. IMO

gene

[terraricca]

hi ron
it is sad to read your comment on pro 8;22 i did not know that wisdom lives that long,and was created the first of all things.
how blind could someone be,??

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,10:41)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:51) secondly  WJ  just where did Peter get his credentials or James or John. You swear by their words yet they had no formal training. Now you will probably say they were anointed by God to write the scriptures or that they were taught by Jesus himself.    Has  all of that stopped. Can God not anoint others to write or has Jesus stopped teaching people about his word? Martian I noticed you didn't mention the Apostle Paul who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and trained by the very best of his day and wrote 2 thirds of the NT. Yes God is still speaking, but what he is speaking will never contradict the inspired scriptures that we have. If you believe that then you need to become a Muslim or something like that! WJ

No I did not mention Paul because he was educated in the Word. Do you put more stock in Paul then in James. John or Peter? To follow your logic paul because of formal education should be listened to more and those with no formal education should be ignored.

My point is that you cannot ignore Jeff Benner's work because he may not agree with your stance. Actually I do not know if Benner is a Trinitarian or not, but I do appreciate his work in Hebrew.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 09 2009,20:03)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2009,06:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. What Bible “dictionaries” are you reading? Strong's# 3056 says that the Logos is “Divine expression (i.e., Christ).” Vine's Expository Dictionary says that the logos is “the personal word, a title of the Son of God” (p. 229). The Analytical Greek Lexicon says that “logos” is from “legoo” which means “to speak.” What is “silly” is your notion that impersonal speech can create and become flesh and exegete God. thinker

Do you need to in essence lie to support your doctrine?
You post the secondary meaning of logos and fail to post the primary meaning.

[martian]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 10 2009,04:27)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 09 2009,20:03) Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2009,06:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. What Bible “dictionaries” are you reading? Strong's# 3056 says that the Logos is “Divine expression (i.e., Christ).” Vine's Expository Dictionary says that the logos is “the personal word, a title of the Son of God” (p. 229). The Analytical Greek Lexicon says that “logos” is from “legoo” which means “to speak.” What is “silly” is your notion that impersonal speech can create and become flesh and exegete God. thinker Do you need to in essence lie to support your doctrine? You post the secondary meaning of logos and fail to post the primary meaning.

strongs Concordance gives the primary definition as statement or speech and includes later “divine expression” (ie Christ) but this is a doctrinal definition and not a definition derived from the word itself.

As I thought. You have taken the secondary meaning listed in Vines and made it the primary meaning to fit your doctrine.

From vines — Notice all the scripture references denoting statement speech or idea and the few denoting person.
Two rules of interpretation.
1. Always take the primary definition of the word first unless denoted by strong argument against such. Proving your doctrine is not strong argument.
2. Always fall on the majority of uses in scripture unless denoted by strong argument against such. Again proving your doctrine is not a strong argument.

1. Word logos denotes

(I)
“the expression of thought,” not the mere name of an object,
(a) as embodying a conception or idea, e.g., Luke 7:7; 1 Cor 14:9,19;
(b) a saying or statement,

by God, e.g., John 15:25; Rom 9:9; Rom 9:28, RV, “word” (AV, “work”); Gal 5:14; Heb 4:12;
by Christ, e.g., Matt 24:35 (plur.); John 2:22; John 4:41; John 14:23 (plur.); John 15:20.
In connection with 1(1) and 1(2) the phrase “the word of the Lord,” i.e., the revealed will of God (very frequent in the OT), is used of a direct revelation given by Christ, 1 Thess 4:15; of the gospel, Acts 8:25; Acts 13:49; Acts 15:35,36; Acts 16:32; Acts 19:10; 1 Thess 1:8; 2 Thess 3:1; in this respect it is the message from the Lord, delivered with His authority and made effective by His power (cp. Acts 10:36); for other instances relating to the gospel see Acts 13:26; Acts 14:3; Acts 15:7; 1 Cor 1:18, RV; 2 Cor 2:17; 2 Cor 4:2; 2 Cor 5:19; 2 Cor 6:7; Gal 6:6; Eph 1:13; Php 2:16; Col 1:5; Heb 5:13; sometimes it is used as the sum of God's utterances, e.g., Mark 7:13; John 10:35; Rev 1:2,9;
 discourse, speech, of instruction, etc., e.g., Acts 2:40; 1 Cor 2:13; 1 Cor 12:8; 2 Cor 1:18; 1 Thess 1:5; 2 Thess 2:15; Heb 6:1, RV, marg.; doctrine, e.g., Matt 13:20; Col 3:16; 1 Tim 4:6; 2 Tim 1:13; Titus 1:9; 1 John 2:7;

(II)
“The Personal Word,” a title of the Son of God; this identification is substantiated by the statements of doctrine in John 1:1-18, declaring in verses John 1:1,2

His distinct and superfinite Personality,
His relation in the Godhead (pros, “with,” not mere company, but the most intimate communion),
His deity; in John 1:3 His creative power; in John 1:14 His incarnation (“became flesh,” expressing His voluntary act; not as AV, “was made”), the reality and totality of His human nature, and His glory “as of the only begotten from the Father,” RV (marg., “an only begotten from a father”), the absence of the article in each place lending stress to the nature and character of the relationship; His was the shekinah glory in open manifestation; John 1:18 consummates the identification: “the only-begotten Son (RV marg., many ancient authorities read “God only begotten,”), which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him,” thus fulfilling the significance of the title “Logos,” the “Word,” the personal manifestation, not of a part of the Divine nature, but of the whole Deity (see IMAGE)
The title is used also in 1 John 1:1,
“the Word of life” combining the two declarations in John 1:1,4 and Rev 19:13 (for 1 John 5:7 see THREE).

The New American Exhaustive concordance of the bible lists Logos a
s statement or speech. From the word Lego which means the act of speaking.

The King James Dictionary
Listed by importance or usage. Notice that definition as Christ ranks 13th.
WORD, n. G., L., to speak. A word is that which is uttered or thrown out.
1. An articulate or vocal sound, or a combination of articulate and vocal sounds, uttered by the human voice, and by custom expressing an idea or ideas; a single component part of human speech or language. Thus a in English is a word; but few words consist of one letter only. Most words consist of two or more letters, as go, do, shall, called monosyllables, or of two or more syllables, as honor, goodness, amiable.
2. The letter or letters, written or printed, which represent a sound or combination of sounds.
3. A short discourse.
Shall I vouchsafe your worship a word or two?
4. Talk; discourse.
Why should calamity be full of words?
Be thy words severe.
5. Dispute; verbal contention; as, some words grew between us.
6. Language; living speech; oral expression. The message was delivered by word of mouth.
7. Promise. He gave me his word he would pay me.
Obey they parents; keep thy word justly.
8. Signal; order; command.
Give the word through.
9. Account; tidings; message. Bring me word what is the issue of the contest.
10. Declaration; purpose expressed.
I know you brave, and take you at your word.
11. Declaration; affirmation.
I desire not the reader should take my word.
12. The Scripture; divine revelation, or any part of it. This is called the word of God.
13. Christ. John 1.

All dictionaries include first in likelihood the definition as statement speech or expressed idea.

The use as “Christ” is listed from a doctrinal aspect and not from a language reason. Not even the context does it demand a definition of Christ. Expressed idea works as well WITH the rest of the Greek words.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2009,01:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,05:38) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word. Exactly, and who else is personifying the Word [logos]? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3. WJ Ephesians 3:14-15(KJV) reads: Quote For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Yes Kerwin

And who else is every knee going to bow to?

Thats another one of those “hey Arians, you will never be like Jesus in that way”?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2009,12:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2009,10:41) Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:51) secondly  WJ  just where did Peter get his credentials or James or John. You swear by their words yet they had no formal training. Now you will probably say they were anointed by God to write the scriptures or that they were taught by Jesus himself.    Has  all of that stopped. Can God not anoint others to write or has Jesus stopped teaching people about his word? Martian I noticed you didn't mention the Apostle Paul who was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and trained by the very best of his day and wrote 2 thirds of the NT. Yes God is still speaking, but what he is speaking will never contradict the inspired scriptures that we have. If you believe that then you need to become a Muslim or something like that! WJ No I did not mention Paul because he was educated in the Word.  Do you put more stock in Paul then in James. John or Peter? To follow your logic paul because of formal education should be listened to more and those with no formal education should be ignored. My point is that you cannot ignore Jeff Benner's work because he may not agree with your stance. Actually I do not know if Benner is a Trinitarian or not, but I do appreciate his work in Hebrew.

My point is that because men are educated does not disqualify them for having the Spirit or as being used of God.

God can use a donkey if he wants.

But, if I am going to accept the translating of Greek and Hebrew I am going to look at the majority of experts that translated the scriptures and their commentary, rather than some isolated individual like Benner whos credentials are not even in the Greek.

But to follow your logic it seems I would just accept whatever agrees with my theolgy regardless of what the credentialed and learned scholars or translators who are skilled in Greek and Hebrew grammer believe.

WJ

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