Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject.

Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.
Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David.

Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead.
Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead.

Hope this helps Irene.

peace and love to you and Georg………..gene

[banana]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,15:24)

Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene

We are talking about the man Jesus here in the flesh.. You grasp at anything, that is so ridiculous. I didn't think you would show what these Scriptures say. Just asking me over and over again to produce one Scripture that says that He preexisted. What do you think firstborn means? Firstborn of all creation that is? Preexisting is a title just like God is. But then you don't want to understand John 1:1 either so I am not surprised. That's all, Gene No more debating this subject, there is no sense in it.
Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,19:25)

WJ………..Is Greek and Hebrew Scholarship replaced the Spirit of the LIVING GOD NOW. Does it not say “Brethren you have (NO NEED) of a teacher for the Spirit (ITSELF) will teach you (ALL THINGS)”. Tell us what degrees of Greek and Hebrew did the apostles have or Jesus for that matter. Is your religion based on you 200 scholars , then who in you flock is qualified are you. Scholars my friend have been proven wrong many, many, many times because of the Biases in their teachings. Jesus said to me and all, “know you Not you shall (ALL) be taught (BY) GOD. I just stay with that, lest i put my trust in man and wind up stumbling. The Greatest Teacher is the (REVELATION) of GOD in the minds and Heart of HIs Childern, NO SCHOLAR GREEK OR HEBREW, can compare to that. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

Gene

Like I said, will the Spirit go against the Apostles inspired written words?

I base my doctrine on the scriptures, how about you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24)

Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24)

Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David.

That scripture sounds just like these…

In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God“, and the Word was God. “The same was in the beginning with God“. John 1:1, 2

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us“, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and “was made in the likeness of men: And **being found in fashion as a man**, he humbled himself“, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:6-8

WJ

[kerwin]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 07 2009,21:56)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 06 2009,08:52) thethinker wrote: Quote But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN. I do not believe you stated that.  I assure you the one who sent the true prophets is in heaven.  In other words since they were sent from God they were sent from heaven. Kerwin, The prophets did not come down from heaven. Come on! Paul was a prophet. Show where he likened his apostleship and his calling to being sent from heaven. thinker

Galatians 1:1-2(NIV) reads

Quote

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,      To the churches in Galatia:

and

2 Corinthians 2:17(NIV) reads

Quote

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.

I am assuming that you understand the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2009,01:41)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 07 2009,21:56) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 06 2009,08:52) thethinker wrote: Quote But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN. I do not believe you stated that.  I assure you the one who sent the true prophets is in heaven.  In other words since they were sent from God they were sent from heaven. Kerwin, The prophets did not come down from heaven. Come on! Paul was a prophet. Show where he likened his apostleship and his calling to being sent from heaven. thinker Galatians 1:1-2(NIV) reads Quote Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,      To the churches in Galatia: and 2 Corinthians 2:17(NIV) reads Quote Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. I am assuming that you understand the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same.

Kerwin

Weak!

There is nothing in those scriptures that says they came down from heaven!

We are ambassodors for Christ, but can we say that we came down from heaven or that we are going to ascend up where we were before?

WJ

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 07 2009,21:25)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,15:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene We are talking about the man Jesus here in the flesh..  You grasp at anything, that is so ridiculous.  I didn't think you would show what these Scriptures say.  Just asking me over and over again to produce one Scripture that says that He preexisted.  What do you think firstborn means?  Firstborn of all creation that is?  Preexisting is a title just like God is.  But then you don't want to understand John 1:1 either so I am not surprised.  That's all, Gene No more debating this subject, there is no sense in it. Irene

FIRSTBORN

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn [prōtotokos] son: and he called his name Yĕhowshuwa`[Jesus].

Prōtotokos:
1) The firstborn.

From:

Prōtos:
1) First in time or place.
2) First in rank, a) influence, honour, b) chief, c) principal.

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn [prōtotokos] son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

NOTE: THE NEXT VERSE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SEE WHAT HE IS TRULY FIRSTBORN OF: I PUT VERSE IN QUOTE FORM:

Quote

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow [proginōskō], he also did predestinate [proorizō] conformed [symmorphos] to the image [eikōn] of his Son, that he might be the firstborn [prōtotokos] among many brethren [adelphos]. Proginōskō: 1) To have knowledge before hand, foreordain. 2) To foreknow, a) of those whom 'elohim elected to salvation. 3) To predestinate. Proorizō: 1) To predetermine, decide beforehand. 2) To foreordain, appoint beforehand. Symmorphos: 1) Having the same form as another, similar, conformed to. [Strong's -G4832] – Describes what is the essence in character and thus complete or durable, not merely a form or outline. Eikōn: 1) An image, figure, likeness. 1a) Used of the moral likeness of renewed men to 'elohim. 1b) The image of the Son of 'elohim, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which theMessiah possesses. 2) One in whom the likeness of any one is seen. 3) Applied to man on account of his power of command. 4) To the Messiah on account of his nature and absolute moral excellence. Adelphos: 1) A brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother. 2) Having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman. 3) Any fellow or man. 4) A fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection. 5) An associate in employment or office. 6) Brethren in the Messiah. a) His brothers by blood, b) All men, c) Apostles, d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image [eikōn] of the invisible [aoratos] G-d [theos/'elohim], the firstborn [prōtotokos] of every creature [ktisis]:

Aoratos: 1) Unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible.

Theos: G-d:

(A) In the polytheism of the Greeks, denoted “a god or deity,” e.g., Act 14:11; 19:26; 28:6; 1Cr 8:5; Gal 4:8.

(B) Hence the word was appropriated by Jews and retained by Christians to denote “the one true G-d.” In the Sept. theos translates (with few exceptions) the Hebrew words 'Elohim and Jehovah, the former indicating His power and preeminence, the latter His unoriginated, immutable, eternal and self-sustained existence.

NOTE: DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT WITH TWO EXPLANATIONS THAT CHRISTIANS TODAY SOMEHOW CAME UP WITH THE MONISM BELIEF? FROM THE GREEKS BELIEVING IN NUMEROUS G-DS, AND THE HEBREWS BELIEVING IN ONE, CHRISTIANS COMBINED IT INTO MONISM. TRAGIC REALLY IT IS. WHEN A MAN HAS G-D GIVEN ATTRIBUTES AND HIS BRETHREN MAKE HIM INTO A GOLDEN CALF.

ktisis:

1) The act of founding, establishing, building etc.
a) The act of creating, creation, b) creation i.e. thing created.

1) Of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation.
a) Anything created, b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called), c) the sum or aggregate of things created.
1a) Institution, ordinance.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head [kephalē] of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [prōtotokos] from the dead [nekros]; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence [prōteuō].

Kephalē:

1) Anything supreme, chief, prominent, a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife. b) of the Messiah: the Lord of the husband and of the Church, c) of things: the corner stone.

From the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing).

Nekros:

1) Properly, a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless, b) deceased, departed, c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate, dead, the death of the body, cp. Jam 2:26, its most frequent sense.

Nekro: ‘Est itaque fides et malarum rerum et bonarum: quia et bona creduntur et mala; et hoc fide bonâ, non malâ. Est etiam fides et praeteritarum rerum, et praesentium, et futurarum. Credimus enim Christurn mortuum; quod jam praeteriit: credimus sedere ad dexteram Patris; quod nunc est: credimus venturum ad judicandum; quod futurum est. Item fides et suarum rerum est et alienarum. Nam et se quisque credit aliquando esse coepisse, nec fuisse utique sempiternum; et alios, atque alia; nec solum de aliis hominibus multa, quae ad religionem pertinent, verum etiam de angelis credimus. Spes autem non nisi bonarum rerum est, nec nisi futurarum, et ad eum pertinentium qui earum spem gerere perhibetur. Quae cum ita sint, propter has caussas distinguenda erit fides ab spe, sicut vocabulo, ita et rationabili differentiâ, Nam quod adtinet ad non videre sive quae creduntur, sire quae sperantur, fidei speique commune est.’ ‘τεθεμελιωμένοι, affixi fundamento; ἑδραῖοι, stablies, firmi intus. Illud metaphoricum est, hoc magis proprium: illud importat majorem respectum ad fundamentum quo sustentantur fideles; sed ἑδραῖοι, stabiles, dicit internum robur, quod fideles ipsi habent; quemadmodum aedificium primo quidem fundamento recte solidequ
e inniti, deinde veto suâ etiam mole probe cohaerere et firmiter consistere debet.’

Prōteuō:

1) To be first, hold the first place. Preeminence (To Have The):

“to be first” (protos), “to be preeminent,” is used of the Messiah in relation to the Church, Col 1:18.

From:

Prōtos:

1) First in time or place, a) in any succession of things or persons.
2) First in rank, a) influence, honour, b) chief, c) principal, 3) first, at the first.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 07 2009,21:25)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,15:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene We are talking about the man Jesus here in the flesh..  You grasp at anything, that is so ridiculous.  I didn't think you would show what these Scriptures say.  Just asking me over and over again to produce one Scripture that says that He preexisted.  What do you think firstborn means?  Firstborn of all creation that is?  Preexisting is a title just like God is.  But then you don't want to understand John 1:1 either so I am not surprised.  That's all, Gene No more debating this subject, there is no sense in it. Irene

You twist

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2009,22:07)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,19:25) WJ………..Is Greek and Hebrew Scholarship replaced the Spirit of the LIVING GOD NOW. Does it not say “Brethren you have (NO NEED) of a teacher for the Spirit (ITSELF) will teach you (ALL THINGS)”. Tell us what degrees of Greek and Hebrew did the apostles have or Jesus for that matter. Is your religion based on you 200 scholars , then who in you flock is qualified are you. Scholars my friend have been proven wrong many, many, many times because of the Biases in their teachings. Jesus said to me and all, “know you Not you shall (ALL) be taught (BY) GOD. I just stay with that, lest i put my trust in man and wind up stumbling. The Greatest Teacher is the (REVELATION) of GOD in the minds and Heart of HIs Childern, NO SCHOLAR GREEK OR HEBREW, can compare to that. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………….gene Gene Like I said, will the Spirit go against the Apostles inspired written words? I base my doctrine on the scriptures, how about you? WJ

You twist

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2009,22:20)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. That scripture sounds just like these… In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God“, and the Word was God. “The same was in the beginning with God“. John 1:1, 2 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us“, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and “was made in the likeness of men: And **being found in fashion as a man**, he humbled himself“, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:6-8 WJ

Why is that portion of John 1:14 in parenthesis?

The word: “Elohims voice became man.

To Proclaim! To Sound! To Cry! To Thunder!

Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh [is] grass, and all the goodliness thereof [is] as the flower of the field:

The word was made flesh.

Forasmuch as the children, who were to become the sons of 'elohim, were partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, Heb. 2:14.

The Socinians agree that the Messiah is both 'elohim and man, but they say that he was man, and was made a 'elohim, as Moses (Ex. 7:1).

[kerwin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 08 2009,12:55)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2009,01:41) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 07 2009,21:56) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 06 2009,08:52) thethinker wrote: Quote But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN. I do not believe you stated that.  I assure you the one who sent the true prophets is in heaven.  In other words since they were sent from God they were sent from heaven. Kerwin, The prophets did not come down from heaven. Come on! Paul was a prophet. Show where he likened his apostleship and his calling to being sent from heaven. thinker Galatians 1:1-2(NIV) reads Quote Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,      To the churches in Galatia: and 2 Corinthians 2:17(NIV) reads Quote Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. I am assuming that you understand the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. Kerwin Weak! There is nothing in those scriptures that says they came down from heaven! We are ambassodors for Christ, but can we say that we came down from heaven or that we are going to ascend up where we were before? WJ

So according to you the apostles and prophets are not ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven?

1 Peter 2:!1(NIV) reads

Quote

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

[Constitutionalist]

Every believer is an ambassador for the Messiah. (2Co 5:18-20)

And all things [are] of 'elohim, who hath reconciled us to himself by Yeshua HaMoshiach, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that 'elohim was in the Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for the Messiah, as though 'elohim did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in the Messiah's stead, be ye reconciled to 'elohim. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of 'elohim in him.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does.

Martian,
You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide.

If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude!

The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 08 2009,03:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2009,22:07) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,19:25) WJ………..Is Greek and Hebrew Scholarship replaced the Spirit of the LIVING GOD NOW. Does it not say “Brethren you have (NO NEED) of a teacher for the Spirit (ITSELF) will teach you (ALL THINGS)”. Tell us what degrees of Greek and Hebrew did the apostles have or Jesus for that matter. Is your religion based on you 200 scholars , then who in you flock is qualified are you. Scholars my friend have been proven wrong many, many, many times because of the Biases in their teachings. Jesus said to me and all, “know you Not you shall (ALL) be taught (BY) GOD. I just stay with that, lest i put my trust in man and wind up stumbling. The Greatest Teacher is the (REVELATION) of GOD in the minds and Heart of HIs Childern, NO SCHOLAR GREEK OR HEBREW, can compare to that. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………….gene Gene Like I said, will the Spirit go against the Apostles inspired written words? I base my doctrine on the scriptures, how about you? WJ You twist

Con

Really, then instead of spouting off at the mouth accusations against me of being dishonest then why don't you show me in my post on John chapter 6 where I twist!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 08 2009,03:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 07 2009,22:20) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. Rom 1:4…..> And (DECLARED) to be the Son of GOD with Power, according to the Spirit of holiness, (HOW) by the resurrection from the dead. Notice it does not say by a prior existence but by the resurrection from the dead. Hope this helps Irene. peace and love to you and Georg………..gene Quote (Gene @ Dec. 07 2009,23:24) Irene………Here is something that might cause you to think more about this subject. Rom 1:3 …> Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Notice it does no say (remade)or reincarnated as the seed of David. That scripture sounds just like these… In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God“, and the Word was God. “The same was in the beginning with God“. John 1:1, 2 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us“, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and “was made in the likeness of men: And **being found in fashion as a man**, he humbled himself“, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:6-8 WJ Why is that portion of John 1:14 in parenthesis? The word: “Elohims voice became man. To Proclaim! To Sound! To Cry! To Thunder! Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh [is] grass, and all the goodliness thereof [is] as the flower of the field: The word was made flesh. Forasmuch as the children, who were to become the sons of 'elohim, were partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, Heb. 2:14. The Socinians agree that the Messiah is both 'elohim and man, but they say that he was man, and was made a 'elohim, as Moses (Ex. 7:1).

Con

So according to you, John 1:1, 2 should read…

In the beginning was (Gods voice), and “(Gods voice) was with God, “AND (GODS VOICE) WAS GOD“. The same (Gods voice) was in the beginning with God. John 1:1, 2

So God is a “Voice” and not a Spirit!

Not so, if you follow the pronouns all the way down to verse 14 you will find out who the Word is that was with God!

Who is twisting the text and changing it?

John even tells us in another place who this Word [logos] is…

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word [logos] of God. Rev 19:13 Also 1 John 1:1-3.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see this, but only deaf ears and a turning away from the truth!

But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Zech 7:11

WJ

[Anonymous]

AMEN, AMEN!!!

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,22:00)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,06:07) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 08 2009,05:00) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 08 2009,04:07) WJ…………Why go to the Greeks to learn, why not let the Spirit of GOD TEACH YOU the TRUTH> “Brethern you have (NO) need of a teacher , for the Spirit (ITSELF) shall teach you all things”. The Spirit (intellect) to recognize truth is the guiding light.  Surely not the Greeks and your 200 scholars who run you around a thousand rabbit trails and causing you to ever learn but never coming into the true Knowledge of GOD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………..gene Uh Gene, It is your man Martian who goes to the Greeks to learn. Martian believes that the Logos means “speech.” This was the view of Plato a Greek philosopher. Plato taught that the Logos of John 1:1 was “verbal expression or thought.” So it is you and Martian who “go to the Greeks to learn.” Plato 's views were based in a mixture of mystery religions. Yet you guys acccuse trinitarians of believing in a mystery religion. Take the log out of your own eye Gene! thinker Yep I went to the greek language as explained in Bible dictionaries.  just like WJ does. Martian, You are twisting what Gene said about not going to the Greeks. He was saying that we should not base our views on their philosophies which is what you are doing. Plato taught your nonsense that “logos” means “speech.” Your inference that “speech” created all things (vs. 3) and then became flesh is intellectual suicide. If you are paying attention to the dictionaries you would be aware that the word “logos” comes from the root “legoo” which means “to speak.” The “logos” therefore is one who speaks. It was one who speaks that created all things and who became flesh. Verse 18 substantiates this by saying that the Son “exegeted” God. Give it up dude! The “Logos” is not about mere speech. It is about one who speaks. thinker

That's silly. I have read at least a dozen Bible Dictionaries and none of them say it is about the person speaking. It is the action of expressing a thought or idea. You are personifying the word.

[martian]

WJ
If I understand the straw man argument correctly it would seem you are posting one.
Wikipedia says: “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To ‘set up a straw man’ or ‘set up a straw-man argument’ is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.
You have brought up the argument about Jeff Benner before. You create a position that Jeff Benner is not a source to be considered and then refute his points on that basis without ever dealing with them. Since when does having a degree in theology define the accuracy of ones conclusions. Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch were very well educated and respected theologians who gave support to the NAZI party and to Adolf Hitler. In fact Benner being self taught would help him to avoid the predjudices often taught in Theological schools. secondly his honoary degree would speak of the depth of his study.

Another point to consider is the fact that many reference works still in wide use are very dated.
Matthew Henry’s Commentary was first published in 1706. That’s fifty years before the Declaration of Independence! Certainly you must agree that understanding of the Greek and Hebrew language has changed since that time. Just the discovery of the Dead sea scrolls has revolutionized the understanding of Hebrew.
Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon was published 1886 and revised 1889. Ten years later Gustov Deissmann published his work which completely changed the manner in which scholars study Greek and made Thayer’s work obsolete.
These two works are still in common use. An exegesis using these works will not have the benefit of more recent archeological and linguistic research. The simple use of computers has enhanced the ability of researchers to come to more complete understandings.
From a personal standpoint I remember that in my years of Bible college I believed everything I was told and was sure they were right about everything. The one thing they did teach me that I still agree with is the use of proper principles of study. Once I got out of school I discovered several mistakes in the doctrine of my Bible college.

It seems that your doctrinal bias is not going to allow you to consider any evidence but what supports your doctrine.

[martian]

secondly WJ just where did Peter get his credentials or James or John. You swear by their words yet they had no formal training. Now you will probably say they were anointed by God to write the scriptures or that they were taught by Jesus himself. Has all of that stopped. Can God not anoint others to write or has Jesus stopped teaching people about his word?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2009,14:48)

You have brought up the argument about Jeff Benner before. You create a position that Jeff Benner is not a source to be considered and then refute his points on that basis without ever dealing with them.

Martian

The problem that you and Gene have is that Benner is not a reliable source for Greek, for even his Honorary isn't for his  Greek studies. He seems to be the only so-called source that supports yours and Genes opinions.

The post that you made about the use of the word heaven by Benner does not reflect on its use in John 6 and in fact Benner doesn't touch on Greek tenses, voice, or moods at all.

He is simply an experienced oppologist that cannot read either Greek or Hebrew!

I do not care if you quote sources that is your right, but your source is alone and cannot began to stack up against the Greek and Hebrew credentialed scholars like Strongs and AT Robertson that gave their lives to bring us the Greek and Hebrew understanding of the text.

Why hasn't anyone come out with a Modern translation that reflects your “Unitarian slants”? Its because it wouldn't get of the ground because they would have to distort the meaning of the Text and violate Greek grammer to support their views.

You still refuse to address the Greek and the rules of grammer that is used in translating John 6 in my post which totally refutes the interpretation of the “Unitarians” and the “Arians” concerning the preexistence of Jesus.

Every major translation renders the text the same.

Its only oppologist that seek to refute the truth and twist the scriptures.

WJ

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