Preexistence

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

you start out with an assumption that Christ is equal to Logos.

Martian,
It is not my assumption that Christ is equal to the Logos. Who then became flesh in verse 14?

Martian:

Quote

There is no linguistic reason to interpret Logos in John 1 as Jesus.

Verse 14 says that the Logos became flesh. If this was not Jesus then who was it? By your logic I would have no linguistic reason for equating the Son with Christ. Christ is the Son. The Son is the “explainer” of verse 18 and the explainer is the “speaker” (logos) of verse 1.

Your redaction of the word “logos” to mere “speech” or “expressed idea” is self refuting because it is so absurd. Does the speech of the President of the U.S. get things done? Or is it the President who spoke the words who acts? Verse 3 says that “all things were made by Him.” Did expressed thought create? Or did the Person who expressed the thought create?

Doe speech become flesh?

Come on!

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 04 2009,15:08)

There is no linguistic reason to interpret Logos in John 1 as Jesus. No literature of the time uses logos in that way or to denote a personage of any kind.

Except for the fact that John saw in his vision before he wrote John 1:1, Jesus having the “Logos” as his own name!

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS **NAME IS CALLED** “THE WORD [LOGOS] OF GOD“. John 1:1

So since “logos” can also be considered by John a name then your argument is a straw mans.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who the “Logos” is in John 1:1. As Jack has said, “a thought or plan did not create anything”, a person did! John 1:2, 3 and Heb 1:10

No, a thought or plan did not become flesh! That sounds like something from another planet. Is that why they call you Martian?  

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either.

The fallacy of generalization. You take a small sample, namely myself and conclude that my doctrine generally does not produce good fruit. I will admit that I am a cantankerous individual. But this is not so with WJ. He is always cordial and Christian like. So by your own logic you must conclude that his doctrine produces good fruit. WJ's doctrine is the same as mine.

Martian:

Quote

I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.

So it's not that I have offended you that is the chief problem. It is the “traditional doctrines” which in your mind does not produce good fruit despite WJ's good example.

Martian:

Quote

I am using the forum as a form of entertainment.

So you're really not here for “God and His plan” as you told Nick. What can we expect when you get bored again?

thinker

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said to Martian:

Quote

No, a thought or plan did not become flesh! That sounds like something from another planet. Is that why they call you Martian?

Good one WJ. I just praised your character above so I hope Martian can take a joke.

thinker

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,08:17)

Martian said: Quote I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either. The fallacy of generalization. You take a small sample, namely myself and conclude that my doctrine generally does not produce good fruit. I will admit that I am a cantankerous individual. But this is not so with WJ. He is always cordial and Christian like. So by your own logic you must conclude that his doctrine produces good fruit. WJ's doctrine is the same as mine. Martian: Quote I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced. So it's not that I have offended you that is the chief problem. It is the “traditional doctrines” which in your mind does not produce good fruit despite WJ's good example. Martian: Quote I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. So you're really not here for “God and His plan” as you told Nick. What can we expect when you get bored again? thinker

I am not going to disguss W's character with anyone other then him however I have ask several times how does your doctrine produce fruit that is listed in scripture.
I cannot judge WJ's character from a silly web site. I do not think you can judge his character either from a forum. However I know that the potential for using an example that is fully human is far greater then an augmented human. I wonder how much more good fruit WJ would have if he could see Christ as completely human.
I suspect that WJ uses Christ as an example to follow even though his doctrine completely precludes that possibility. I have seen this many times. A trinitarian speaks their doctrine from their mouth but in their hearts treats Christ as their human brother and example regardless of the fact that their doctrine would make that impossible. They speak their doctrine but operate mine.
How does Christ as a God/man clearly show me the path of righteousness more then Christ as a pure example human to human?
How does the fact that a augmented human/godman being raised from the dead or overcoming temptation help me to have hope of being raised or overcoming?

This is not even considering that in order for your doctrine to be true a God must be temptable or that a single individual can have two natures and still be human.
This is not considering that to make God temptable one must change the immutable character of God.  

Tell me, how does a God/man being raised from the dead give hope to me that I will be raised from the dead? I am not a God/man.
How does a God/man overcoming temptation give me hope that I can overcome temptation as a simple human?
How can I take hope. comfort or example from a God/man when I am not a God/man?
How can God's word state that we are supposed to use a God/man as our example when He knows the comparison/example is not valid?

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

How can God's word state that we are supposed to use a God/man as our example when He knows the comparison/example is not valid?

If Jesus was a mere man then His life was not all that exemplary? He was just doing what He was supposed to do. But if He was God then this is quite exemplary. He did that which He did not have to do. My 19 year old daughter understands this.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,07:40)

I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God  That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me. I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understands them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not  hybrid God/man but just like us) I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death. I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome. I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ. I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him. I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical explanation.

martian………AMEN AMEN, brother. Perfect words of truth for us all to consider brother. I love the sound of the Spirit of Truth, it gives soundness to the SOUL.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[martian]

Martian:
Quote
I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.

So it's not that I have offended you that is the chief problem. It is the “traditional doctrines” which in your mind does not produce good fruit despite WJ's good example.

Reply –
You are comparing apples and oranges. You could have defended your points without getting personal. I was offended by the meds comment but I got over it quickly and was ready to forget it till you decided to prolong the silliness by starting your explanation thread.
I am also offended by doctrines that lower the place that man has in god's economy. Doctrines that lessen the marvelous work that Christ did by claiming he was not a human being like us but some hybrid God/man.
The whole world groans for the manifestation of the sons of God.
The entire creation was created for man to develop and mature into the children God started to create with Adam. The second Adam completed the plan. As a human he is our example on how we can complete the plan of God for us.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,09:24)

Martian said: Quote How can God's word state that we are supposed to use a God/man as our example when He knows the comparison/example is not valid? If Jesus was a mere man then His life was not all that exemplary? He was just doing what He was supposed to do. But if He was God then this is quite exemplary. He did that which He did not have to do. My 19 year old daughter understands this. thinker

Are you serious?
Overcoming sin and temptation throughout his entire life is not exemplary as a man. On the contrary doing it as a God would be common place. Of course God cannot sin. He is incapable of sinning. There would be no temptation at all.
scripture says that greater love hath no man but that he lay down his life for his fellow man. sounds pretty exemplary to me.
Jesus had a free will. He could have sinned or quit at any time. in the garden he prayed that he did not want to die. Yet he chose to honor God's will rather then his own. He did what he did not have to do. He went to the cross voluntarily even though he wanted to live.

You say –
He was just doing what He was supposed to do
As I stated above. christ had a choice. the fact that he chose to obey God even unto death is the greatest example of all.

[banana]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,07:40)

I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either. Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important. What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life. Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal  debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS  a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change. I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit. I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right) I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced. I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit. I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God  That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me. I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understands them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not  hybrid God/man but just like us) I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death. I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome. I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ. I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him. I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical explanation. What also makes me wonder how you know who produces good fruit and who does not. I don't and I leave that up to God to deside. One more thing. Was Jesus not before Abraham. Also Proverbs 8:22-30 are good Scriptures and the explanation that it is Wisdom being born is redicoulous. God always had Wisdom.

And utterance or intellect became flesh, that makes no sense at all and neither does all the other explanation you give. You are to smart for your own good. Wise men go by the word of God.
John 1:1 goes along with all the other Scriptures about the preexisting of Jesus.
And what makes you think that the doctrine of preexisting of Jesus produces no fruit. That is a cop out if I ever heard one. Using this Forum for entertainment is really ridiculous to say the least/ Then my friend you don't belong here. I will not even read any other post that you make from now on knowing how you feel about the words of God. I am quit upset by such a statement. I wonder what God says about that. We at least I am here to share my understanding and learn and I have from others. And BTW we don't belong to any Church, we belong to God's Church the body of God which is us. I am not including you since you don't believe the truth. You see what I mean, it can go both ways. Accusing others of not having the truth is not having good fruit either. Some people think that this doctrine goes with the trinity and that too is wrong, We don't believe in the trinity. That is a false doctrine produced by a man.
God has been good to us and I believe that this doctrine is of God and not of men.
I have to chuckle what you said what you going to say to God. Good stock like us?? Give me a break. Self Righteousness will not be rewarded, I am sure of that.
Why do you think what,or what not, I believe is important or not. Just because I don't respond to all of your post means nothing.
Also I don't have a doctrine. It was taught to us by a J.W. and they do have some doctrine that are truth. You also interpret the preeminence of Christ and that is so wrong to do. Read it like it says and not your interpretation of it. Look it up in your Dictionary what preeminence means.
Good luck to you,
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Martian

Quote (martian @ Dec. 04 2009,17:17)

I suspect that WJ uses Christ as an example to follow even though his doctrine completely precludes that possibility.

What makes you think that any man can follow Jesus example without him?

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for “WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING”.

This is the fallacy of the Arians doctrine, that Jesus has to be a mere man for us to follow him, or that he had to be like us in every way.

But Jesus said that you and I cannot do anything without him!

So tell me Martian, are you or any other the vine?

If not then you will never be like him in that way.

Can you say that without you men cannot do anything?

If not then you will never be like him in that way!

Can you live in believers all over the world and empower them all at the same time to be like Jesus?

If not then you will never be like him in that way!

Can you or will you ever have the Spirit without measure like Jesus had or has?

If not then you will never be like him in that way!

Can you give eternal life to anyone, or is it that you can offer them Jesus who is the way the truth and the life?

If you are not the way and the truth and the life then you can never be like him in this way!

So you see, though you may not like it, you can do nothing or bear any fruit without Jesus, and since that is the case then you can never be like him in that way!

He is the life and source of every believer and you or any other man are not.

So therefore he is more than a mere man for he fills the life and heart of every believer by One Spirit which is Gods, and no mere man can do that!

You never answered my question… Do you or any man have the Spirit without measure?

If not then that means that Jesus had an advantage over us, and that is because he was before us and has preeminence over us because he is and was the Word that was with God and was God!

Burn that straw man down! Jesus was more than a mere man!

WJ

[Anonymous]

AMEN AGAIN W.J. GOD BLESS YOU!

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

I suspect that WJ uses Christ as an example to follow even though his doctrine completely precludes that possibility.

I was right! This is not about my offending you. This is about the ax you have to grind with trinitarianism.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 05 2009,09:49)

Martian Quote (martian @ Dec. 04 2009,17:17) I suspect that WJ uses Christ as an example to follow even though his doctrine completely precludes that possibility. What makes you think that any man can follow Jesus example without him? I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for “WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING”. This is the fallacy of the Arians doctrine, that Jesus has to be a mere man for us to follow him, or that he had to be like us in every way. But Jesus said that you and I cannot do anything without him! So tell me Martian, are you or any other the vine? If not then you will never be like him in that way. Can you say that without you men cannot do anything? If not then you will never be like him in that way! Can you live in believers all over the world and empower them all at the same time to be like Jesus? If not then you will never be like him in that way! Can you or will you ever have the Spirit without measure like Jesus had or has? If not then you will never be like him in that way! Can you give eternal life to anyone, or is it that you can offer them Jesus who is the way the truth and the life? If you are not the way and the truth and the life then you can never be like him in this way! So you see, though you may not like it, you can do nothing or bear any fruit without Jesus, and since that is the case then you can never be like him in that way! He is the life and source of every believer and you or any other man are not. So therefore he is more than a mere man for he fills the life and heart of every believer by One Spirit which is Gods, and no mere man can do that! You never answered my question… Do you or any man have the Spirit without measure? If not then that means that Jesus had an advantage over us, and that is because he was before us and has preeminence over us because he is and was the Word that was with God and was God! Burn that straw man down! Jesus was more than a mere man! WJ

AMEN!!

thinker

[Anonymous]

Scripture also teaches that each member of the Godhead existed before the world was created.

Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God (Psalm 90:2).

In Proverbs we read.

I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began (Proverbs 8:23).

John wrote.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

Paul wrote.

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).

Therefore the Bible gives both direct and indirect evidence of God creating the universe.

Creation Was Supernatural

The account of creation recorded in the Bible is a supernatural work of God. The Lord says:

I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone (Isaiah 44:24).

The Word of the Lord accomplished Creation,

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap . . . For he spoke, and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast (Psalm 33:6,7,9).

God gives a challenge to those who would attempt to give their account of the origin of the universe.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know (Job 38:4,5).

blueletterbible.org

[Anonymous]

The New Testament gives reference to God as Creator. On Mars Hill the Apostle Paul said:

God, made the world and everything in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is he worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, since he gives to all life, breath, and all things (Acts 17:24,25).

John the Apostle writes:

You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for you have created all things, and by your will they exist and were created (Revelation 4:11).

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

When Paul wrote to the church at Corinth he refers to God commanding the light to appear in Genesis 1:3:

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shown in our hearts (2 Corinthians 4:6).

Peter makes reference to Genesis 1:9:

For this they willfully forget; that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water (2 Peter 3:5).

Supernatural creation is an important truth that is emphasized in both testaments.

The Testimony Of Jesus

We have already seen that the Scriptures testify that Jesus is the Creator. Last, but certainly not least, we have the testimony of Jesus Himself as to the creation account in Genesis.

Have you not read that he who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? (Matthew 19:4,5).

[martian]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,09:46)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,07:40) I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness. Your doctrine does not do either. Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important. What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life. Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal  debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS  a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness. I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change. I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit. I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right) I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced. I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit. I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God  That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me. I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understands them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not  hybrid God/man but just like us) I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death. I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome. I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ. I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him. I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical explanation. What also makes me wonder how you know who produces good fruit and who does not.  I don't and I leave that up to God to deside. One more thing. Was Jesus not before Abraham.  Also Proverbs 8:22-30 are good Scriptures and the explanation that it is Wisdom being born is redicoulous.  God always had Wisdom. And utterance or intellect became flesh, that makes no sense at all and neither does all the other explanation you give.  You are to smart for your own good.  Wise men go by the word of God. John 1:1 goes along with all the other Scriptures about the preexisting of Jesus. And what makes you think that the doctrine of preexisting of Jesus produces no fruit.  That is a cop out if I ever heard one.  Using this Forum for entertainment is really ridiculous to say the least/  Then my friend you don't belong here.  I will not even read any other post that you make from now on knowing how you feel about the words of God.  I am quit upset by such a statement.  I wonder what God says about that.  We at least I am here to share my understanding and learn and I have from others.  And BTW  we don't belong to any Church, we belong to God's Church the body of God which is us.  I am not including you since you don't believe the truth.  You see what I mean, it can go both ways.  Accusing others of not having the truth is not having good fruit either.  Some people think that this doctrine goes with the trinity and that too is wrong,  We don't believe in the trinity.  That is a false doctrine produced by a man. God has been good to us and I believe that this doctrine is of God and not of men. I have to chuckle what you said what you going to say to God.  Good stock like us??  Give me a break.  Self Righteousness will not be rewarded, I am sure of that. Why do you think what,or what not, I believe is important or not.  Just because I don't respond to all of your post means nothing.   Also I don't have a doctrine.  It was taught to us by a J.W. and they do have some doctrine that are truth.  You also interpret the preeminence of Christ and that is so wrong to do.  Read it like it says and not your interpretation of it.  Look it up in your Dictionary what preeminence means. Good luck to you, Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
you know the trinitarians could say the same about you. You are not of the body because you do not believe the truth. In fact most Trinitarians believe exactly that, so you and I are in the same boat being rejected by the majority of the body.
I made no attack on you or said you were not saved because of your beliefs.

As I said of WJ, I do not doubt you are good people and that you love God. I wonder how much better you would be if your hearts were guided by more proper doctrine. I suspect (as with WJ) that you speak one doctrine but act in accordance with another. I suspect that you use Christ as your example even though a dual- natured Christ could never be used as one. (I assume you believe in some sort of deity for Christ)

You interpret scripture in such a way as to say Christ preexisted. Yet, when ask a simple question like what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ prior to his birth to Mary, you do not know. It is a mystery. It sounds like the mystery of a Triune God.

You say you are here to learn and yet I have several times ask you to look at the Hebrew culture to see if my definition of the scripture is correct. I have given web sites and invited you to find your own. Did you look at any of it?
I have researched the Hebrew and Greek words and you ignore the real languages in favor of an English translation that is 1500 years later.
When I spoke of fruits it had little to do with what people are like now but about potential of greater fruit in each of our lives.
secondly to point out that the fruits produced (IMO) are being produced more by accident then by design. Most all of us if pressed will act as if Jesus is our perfect example and then in the next breath make statements that would make that impossible. Our hearts act in accordance with truth while our intellect spews out silliness. I am happy to say that God judges by the heart but think if we could get our hearts and out intellect on the same page. What wonders would befall us.

I have ask those that appose a completely human Christ several questions and have never ha
d them answered.

Tell me, how does a God/man being raised from the dead give hope to me that I will be raised from the dead? I am not a God/man.
(I am not asking whether you have that hope, I am asking how the above helped you to get that hope.)
How does a God/man overcoming temptation give me hope that I can overcome temptation as a simple human?
How can I take hope. comfort or example from a God/man when I am not a God/man?
How can God's word state that we are supposed to use a God/man as our example when He knows the comparison/example is not valid?

Now Irene, if you choose to not answer any of my posts from now on it is not a biggie to me. There are plenty that will on this forum or the other four I am on. I like this forum because it allows a non Trinitarian to speak freely where most will cut you off or kick you out.
To answer your queries about entertainment. I got on jee to debate, but I found the same old dog and pony show being thrown out time and again. Though some may have learned some things I am not aware of anyone that has held a firm doctrine and switched because of the forum. Especially doctrines having to do with the Godhead.
If I have offended you personally I apologize although I am not sure what I did.
If you are offended because I do not take the venue of a forum seriously, then that is on you.
All of us (and I include myself) are convinced in our doctrines. I doubt any amount of proof will change us. Most will not even consider with any honesty the others point of view. What fruit is in that?

I am going to answer one of your points. You said –
And utterance or intellect became flesh, that makes no sense at all and neither does all the other explanation you give. You are to smart for your own good. Wise men go by the word of God.
Reply –
First I remember nowhere saying an intellect became flesh. I think you confuse me with Gene.
Second I said an idea became flesh. Just like when my wife and I decided to have kids, the idea was first and then it was fulfilled in the flesh. Christ is the fulfillment of what God intended for all of us. He is the firstfruits. The first to complete the race.
If you were God, prior to creation, you would first have an idea, then form a plan and then bring it about to fruition. God had an idea for perfected humanity with His character and heart. A fully matured human. He set up a plan. A universe whose purpose was to mature mankind. Adam failed to complete that plan. The second Adam did not. Jesus is the expressed idea of God who was revealed in the flesh at the appropriate time. A perfected human came at the right time. The idea and the plan have always been there, but the fulfillment of that idea/plan was not revealed till Christ was born. I have posted this a dozen times but I doubt many will even consider it.

I have had even this conversation a dozen times on here. Like other subjects I should have saved my previous posts and just regurgitated them.
No matter how I ask it people are not willing to use biblical terms to describe their doctrine. Words like incarnation are drug in to the scriptures. These words carry with them a doctrinal bias. As one said incarnation means God became man. They use the non biblical word that means God became man to prove that God became man. Pure circular reasoning. Yet in a week or two the word will be bated about again as if it is quite logical and proper to use it.
Or how about the term holy spirit. A poor translation of both the Greek and the Hebrew. Trinitarians love it because it personifies something that is not a person. (that’s why it was translated that way)
If you were to replace that term with “breath or wind set aside for a special purpose” and then read the verses they would indicate something quite different from a third person of the Trinity.
Even with this obvious I spent weeks getting one Trinitarian to admit that the definition was correct. He wanted his doctrine regardless of what the scripture actually says/means.
Even you, Irene have refused to look at scripture in a proper format. I ask you to study the concept of “create” from a Hebrew perspective. Did you even bother to look or did you simply shrug it off because you want to keep your English bible and your Greek cultured thinking intact?

[martian]

WJ and thethinker
What makes you think that any man can follow Jesus example without him?

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for “WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING”.

This is the fallacy of the Arians doctrine, that Jesus has to be a mere man for us to follow him, or that he had to be like us in every way.

But Jesus said that you and I cannot do anything without him!

Reply –
You are mixing the mantle of Christ as the messiah and Christ as our example of perfected humanity.
Christ had to be perfected humanity to be the messiah but you do not have to be the messiah to be perfected humanity. Christ as the vine is an aspect of being the messiah not of being perfected humanity.

You say –
If not then you will never be like him in that way.

Reply –
No I will never be the messiah. I have never claimed such. However I can be perfected and matured humanity. Christ redemptive work (as the messiah) opened the door for me to do exactly that. His example shows me how.

You say-
Can you live in believers all over the world and empower them all at the same time to be like Jesus?

If not then you will never be like him in that way!

Reply –
Again you speak of things that are after Christ resurrection. Did I ever say we could be like him as He is now? Christ was given power to complete his mission as the messiah. So christ was given power to speak to all and be in all of the people at once after his resurrection. What does that have to do with us being like him as he was before the resurrection.

You say –
Can you or will you ever have the Spirit without measure like Jesus had or has?

If not then you will never be like him in that way!

Reply –
There are certainly indications that we can have the fullness of God in us like Christ.

Of Christ –
Colossians 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

Of us –
Eph 3
19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

You say –
Can you give eternal life to anyone, or is it that you can offer them Jesus who is the way the truth and the life?

If you are not the way and the truth and the life then you can never be like him in this way!

Reply –
You again confuse Christ role as the messiah with his role as our example.
No I cannot give eternal life nor can I be the truth the way and the life. I am not the messiah. I can however have the same breath of God in me as Christ had to fulfill my mantle, be it music leader, teacher or prophet or simply a good father. There is only one messiah position and it has been filled.

You say –
So you see, though you may not like it, you can do nothing or bear any fruit without Jesus, and since that is the case then you can never be like him in that way!

Reply –
Again I never said I could bear fruit without Jesus. Without his work as the messiah I could not even be in the plan of God. However without his example as a human overcoming sin and death, I would not have the hope that it produces. What hope can I gain from an augmented human doing those things. That certainly could not build hope that I can do them.

You say –
He is the life and source of every believer and you or any other man are not.

Reply –
This is getting old. You keep bringing up things having to do with his work as the messiah. That has nothing to do with his being an example of perfected humanity.

You say –
So therefore he is more than a mere man for he fills the life and heart of every believer by One Spirit which is Gods, and no mere man can do that!

Reply –
Certainly any man could do that. Any mere man can do anything if God gives him the power to do so. God gave power to Christ to complete his role as the Messiah and mediator. This was again after his resurrection and has nothing to do with his example of the perfected human.

You say –
You never answered my question… Do you or any man have the Spirit without measure?

If not then that means that Jesus had an advantage over us, and that is because he was before us and has preeminence over us because he is and was the Word that was with God and was God!

Reply –
I already answered that question with scripture. There are also no scriptures that say we cannot be filled with as much of the spirit as Christ. Perhaps we do not need as much to be perfected. Perhaps Christ needed more to be the messiah. It still does not mean he had to be more then a normal human.

There is no reason to believe (other then proving your doctrine) that we cannot have access to the same portion of the breath of God as Christ. We will receive according to our vulnerability and willingness to yield. Our sins have been abolished and it is up to us to come before the thrown boldly and receive as sons.
Scripture says that the Bride of Christ will be without spot or wrinkle. she will be perfected humanity. How much breath of God will she need to accomplish that? I would suspect the same amount Christ needed to do it.

You say –
Burn that straw man down! Jesus was more than a mere man!

Reply –
You have made assumptions that I think we will all be messiahs. Christ first had a requirement to be without sin and be matured and perfected. This is the same goal common to all of humanity. This was done for his own sake and as our example.
Christ also had a mantle as the messiah (a job if you will) As stated I might have the mantle of being a good father or a prophet. I need to be perfected humanity to do that job perfectly. However I do not need to be a prophet to be perfected humanity.
Jesus does not have to be deity to be perfected humanity and our example nor does he have to be deity to fulfill his role as the messiah. He completed that job on the cross, but he still works with the power that God gives him (after the resurrection) to draw and work on all men for their benefit.

I am finished for the evening.
Good night all —

[martian]

One more point to consider. We are all to be partakers of the divine nature. I have seen no restriction in scripture that says how much of that nature we can partake. God calls us to be perfect.

[GeneBalthrop]

martian………It amazes me that WJ and thinker and others can't get this , Jesus was our example of GOD'S work of Perfection in humanity. They separate Jesus from there own likeness so what hope do they have then? God did not take a Super perfect being and kill him and berth him in Mary and Kill him again. That would prove (NOTHING) to US> Why can't these people see that? The doctrine of preexistence is every bit as bad as the Doctrine or the TRINITY. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[Author]

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