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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!
That is right John 1:1 doesn't specifically say that it was Jesus. Try this one.“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
Who was with God in the beginning? Who is the life? Who is identified as the Word of God.
He was given the name Yeshua or something similar when he was born into this world.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Where is the mention that Jesus is God and by believing that you have life in his name?
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Where is it written that the foundation of the church is believing that Jesus is God? It is not written.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Heed the above words. They are scripture. Whatever the excuse for not heeding them is, it makes no difference. You will still be accountable for these words because you have heard these words and read these words.
Is God your father? If so, then according to the scripture above, you would believe that he came from God. Instead you teach that he is God. Surely even your conscience must be asking you to not ignore this.
T8 wrote:
Quote So as you can see, what I said was a mere repetition of these scriptures and even briefer than what these scriptures describe.
It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim. Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived. You may claim otherwise but it is not true.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 03 2009,23:30) hi wc
you know some translation quote John 1-1 as “and the WORD WAS A GOD' I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE ACCURATE,dont you think
Textus Receptus – Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγοςGreek – en archē ēn logos kai logos ēn pros theos kai logos ēn theos
Vulgate – in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
King James – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
New King James – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
NLT – In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with G-d, and he was G-d.
NIV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
ESV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
RVR – En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios.
NASB – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
RSV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
ASV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
YNG – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d;
DBY – In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
WEB – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
HNV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
He who is 'elohim a word of himself, the manifestation or expression of himself to those without him. His conscious personal existence literally his essence.
Of whom he speaks—The Word—ho logos. This is an idiom peculiar to John’s writings. See 1 Jn. 1:1; 5:7; Rev. 19:13. Yet some think that Yeshua HaMoshiach is meant by the Word in Acts 20:32; Heb. 4:12; Lu. 1:2.
The Chaldee paraphrase very frequently calls the Messiah Memra—the Word of Yehovah, and speaks of many things in the Old Testament, said to be done by the Lord, as done by that Word of the Lord. Even the vulgar Jews were taught that the Word of G-d was the same with G-d.
Word is two-fold: logos endiathetos—word conceived; and logos prophorikos—word uttered.
The logos ho esoµ and ho exoµ, ratio and oratio—intelligence and utterance.
In the beginning was the Word: Word translated the ancient the Greek word Logos. The idea of the logos had deep and rich roots in both Jewish and Greek thinking.
Jewish rabbis often referred to 'elohim, especially in His more personal aspects, in terms of His word. They spoke of 'elohim Himself as “the word of 'elohim.”
For example, ancient Hebrew editions of the Old Testament change Exodus 19:17 (Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet 'elohim) to “Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet the word of 'elohim.” In the mind of the ancient Jews, the phrase “the word of 'elohim” could be used to refer to 'elohim Himself.
The Greek philosophers saw the logos as the power which puts sense into the world, making the world orderly instead of chaotic. The logos was the power that set the world in perfect order and kept it going in perfect order. They saw the logos as the “Ultimate Reason/Intellect” that controlled all things.
And the Word was with 'elohim, and the Word was 'elohim: With this brilliant statement, John 1:1 sets forth one of the most basic foundations of our faith. We can follow John’s logic:
There is a Being known as the Word.
This Being is 'elohim, because He is eternal (In the beginning)
This Being is 'elohim, because He is plainly called 'elohim (the Word was 'elohim).
Only the Jehovah’s Witness translation reads like this: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was a god.”
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,21:53) T8 wrote: Quote So as you can see, what I said was a mere repetition of these scriptures and even briefer than what these scriptures describe.
It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim. Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived. You may claim otherwise but it is not true.
In my post I never claimed anything but what was written. If you have a problem with what is written then I am not the one to complain to. I never wrote the bible.Come on. I repeat those scriptures and some of you guys have a problem with that. It seems clear that the problem is between you and those scriptures. Leave me out of it.
You obviously have a problem with the following scripture:
Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!Should the scripture be removed from bibles as offensive?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,22:36) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,21:53) T8 wrote: Quote So as you can see, what I said was a mere repetition of these scriptures and even briefer than what these scriptures describe.
It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim. Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived. You may claim otherwise but it is not true.
In my post I never claimed anything but what was written. If you have a problem with what is written then I am not the one to complain to. I never wrote the bible.Come on. I repeat those scriptures and some of you guys have a problem with that. It seems clear that the problem is between you and those scriptures. Leave me out of it.
You obviously have a problem with the following scripture:
Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!Should the scripture be removed from bibles as offensive?
I have posted several times about Phil. The problem us that many Trinitarians and it appears you too have a wrong understanding of this portion of scripture based on a preconceived idea of doctrine. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existent Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –
Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction
God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and Eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You to
o, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own kingdom.One must consider the context of the entire scripture and not just assume a meaning because we need proof for our doctrine.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 04 2009,05:57) And the Word was with 'elohim, and the Word was 'elohim: With this brilliant statement, John 1:1 sets forth one of the most basic foundations of our faith. We can follow John’s logic: There is a Being known as the Word.
This Being is 'elohim, because He is eternal (In the beginning)
This Being is 'elohim, because He is plainly called 'elohim (the Word was 'elohim).
And 'elohim (father the Word) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14Thats not Johns logic at all, but simply a poor explanation to twist the scriptures from the original intent.
John tells us “who” the Word is…
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of “THE WORD OF LIFE“; (For the life was manifested, and “we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
If you say that the Word is the Father then John would be saying that his eyes have seen the Father and his hands have touched him. Pure foolishness for no man can see God or touch him apart from Jesus!
Who is the Word of life that was with the Father?…
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “THE WORD OF GOD. Rev 19:13
But I do agree that the being is 'elohim! For the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is “One” 'elohim!
WJ
Quote (martian @ Dec. 04 2009,02:05) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:52) Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,21:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question.
If Worshiping Jesus means illogical when he states mystery I have to agree. I also agree that God is not an illogical God.
Perhaps you should define “worship”. The word is not restricted to worshiping of a God. It simply means to prostrate oneself in respect.
Matian is still on the meds I see. However you wish to define the term “worship” does not matter because Christ receives it WITH the Father:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”What part of “and to the Lamb” do you not understand? Try posting before you take your meds so you may acquire a little more coherence when you speak. It doesn't matter how you define “worship” for it is to be given to the Father “and to the Lamb.”
And don't put too much stock in that novice Constitutionalist who tries to pass himself off as educated.
thinker
The thinker –
I have been meaning to address two of your posts.
I must say that I have never in over 4 years of being on forums such completely evil words.
Here is what you said —Martian,
There you go speaking through the meds again.
And you say –
Matian is still on the meds I see.I hope you never get sick, but if you do I hope the scripture will be fulfilled in your life. In other words that you will be judged as you judged others. I hope you will have someone make a joke out of it and publish in a public format.
Your actions disgust me.
Martian,
I apologize for the statement about the meds. It was indeed wrong for me to say that. In the past you used meds as an accuse for your inconsistencies. Then you started a thread before you left inwhich you threw a tantrum insulting others for their beliefs. I have held this against you which I confess is also wrong.Before you left I was the only one who expressed concern for you which you even acknowledged.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,20:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!
That is right John 1:1 doesn't specifically say that it was Jesus. Try this one.“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
Who was with God in the beginning? Who is the life? Who is identified as the Word of God.
He was given the name Yeshua or something similar when he was born into this world.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Where is the mention that Jesus is God and by believing that you have life in his name?
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Where is it written that the foundation of the church is believing that Jesus is God? It is not written.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Heed the above words. They are scripture. Whatever the excuse for not heeding them is, it makes no difference. You will still be accountable for these words because you have heard these words and read these words.
Is God your father? If so, then according to the scripture above, you would believe that he came from God. Instead you teach that he is God. Surely even your conscience must be asking you to not ignore this.
Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Now consider a God who has reasoning power and a thinking capability. He sets out to achieve a purpose. That purpose is to create beings in His likeness and image. Beings that will mature and develop character like His. God has an idea (word) to make his purpose come about. As a reasoning creature His idea turns into a plan.“That which was from the beginning,(the plan was with God from the beginning) which we have heard, (they were taught of the plan all their lives) which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands,
(Now if the scripture stopped here there would be a point that Jesus is the word, however the use of the word “concerning” indicates an explanation of the previous text.
concerning the word of life (concerning the plan of life) and the life was manifested, (That plan for life was revealed to us) and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
(This life was with the father from the beginning. We are promised eternal life. When God created Adam He breathes the breath of life into him. Job speaks of the breath leaving when one dies. “Breath” in the Hebrew mind carries the meaning of life. God revealed what it means to have life more abundantly by showing a human that acquired it. The eternal life that we are promised was manifested or revealed in Christ. Jesus said he came to give life more abundantly.)Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Christ means the anointed one. Man needs an anointing not God.
simon Peter was saying you are the anointed man the son of God.
It is upon the revelation that Christ is the anointed human son of God that the church is built.Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
If being sent from God denotes deity then John is deity too.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.Worse then that We are told that we should believe through John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.John 17
14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(“As” in the same way you sent me, I send them. Are we Gods?)
19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,03:22) Quote (martian @ Dec. 04 2009,02:05) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:52) Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,21:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question.
If Worshiping Jesus means illogical when he states mystery I have to agree. I also agree that God is not an illogical God.
Perhaps you should define “worship”. The word is not restricted to worshiping of a God. It simply means to prostrate oneself in respect.
Matian is still on the meds I see. However you wish to define the term “worship” does not matter because Christ receives it WITH the Father:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”What part of “and to the Lamb” do you not understand? Try posting before you take your meds so you may acquire a little more coherence when you speak. It doesn't matter how you define “worship” for it is to be given to the Father “and to the Lamb.”
And don't put too much stock in that novice Constitutionalist who tries to pass himself off as educated.
thinker
The thinker –
I have been meaning to address two of your posts.
I must say that I have never in over 4 years of being on forums such completely evil words.
Here is what you said —Martian,
There you go speaking through the meds again.
And you say –
Matian is still on the meds I see.I hope you never get sick, but if you do I hope the scripture will be fulfilled in your life. In other words that you will be judged as you judged others. I hope you will have someone make a joke out of it and publish in a public format.
Your actions disgust me.
Martian,
I apologize for the statement about the meds. It was indeed wrong for me to say that. In the past you used meds as an accuse for your inconsistencies. Then you started a thread before you left inwhich you threw a tantrum insulting others for their beliefs. I have held this against you which I confess is also wrong.Before you left I was the only one who expressed concern for you which you even acknowledged in that tantrum thread you started.
thinker
Apology acceptedQuote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,03:32) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,20:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!
That is right John 1:1 doesn't specifically say that it was Jesus. Try this one.“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
Who was with God in the beginning? Who is the life? Who is identified as the Word of God.
He was given the name Yeshua or something similar when he was born into this world.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Where is the mention that Jesus is God and by believing that you have life in his name?
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Where is it written that the foundation of the church is believing that Jesus is God? It is not written.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Heed the above words. They are scripture. Whatever the excuse for not heeding them is, it makes no difference. You will still be accountable for these words because you have heard these words and read these words.
Is God your father? If so, then according to the scripture above, you would believe that he came from God. Instead you teach that he is God. Surely even your conscience must be asking you to not ignore this.
Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Now consider a God who has reasoning power and a thinking capability. He sets out to achieve a purpose. That purpose is to create beings in His likeness and image. Beings that will mature and develop character like His. God has an idea (word) to make his purpose come about. As a reasoning creature His idea turns into a plan.“That which was from the beginning,(the plan was with God from the beginning) which we have heard, (they were taught of the plan all their lives) which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands,
(Now if the scripture stopped here there would be a point that Jesus is the word, however the use of the word “concerning” indicates an explanation of the previous text.
concerning the word of life (concerning the plan of life) and the life was manifested, (That plan for life was revealed to us) and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
(This life was with the father from the beginning. We are promised eternal life. When God created Adam He breathes the breath of life into him. Job speaks of the breath leaving when one dies. “Breath” in the Hebrew mind carries the meaning of life. God revealed what it means to have life more abundantly by showing a human that acquired it. The eternal life that we are promised was manifested or revealed in Christ. Jesus said he came to give life more abundantly.)Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Christ means the anointed one. Man needs an anointing not God.
simon Peter was saying you are the anointed man the son of God.
It is upon the revelation that Christ is the anointed human son of God that the church is built.Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
If being sent from God denotes deity then John is deity too.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.Worse then that We are told that we should believe through John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.John 17
14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(“As” in the same way you sent me, I send them. Are we Gods?)
19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
martian There are other Scriptures that show us that Christ is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse16
For by Him all things were created, that are in Heaven and that are in earth……….
verse 17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18
Christ is also the firstborn from the dead, that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
God created or Psalms says brought forth Jesus and then He gave Him the power to created everything else.
Also Jesus knew that He had been with the Father before the world was.
John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.There also Scriptures that call Jesus God not only in John 1:1 but also in
Hebrew 1:8 Prove all things,
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 04 2009,21:57) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 03 2009,23:30) hi wc
you know some translation quote John 1-1 as “and the WORD WAS A GOD' I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE ACCURATE,dont you think
Textus Receptus – Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγοςGreek – en archē ēn logos kai logos ēn pros theos kai logos ēn theos
Vulgate – in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
King James – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
New King James – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
NLT – In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with G-d, and he was G-d.
NIV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
ESV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
RVR – En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios.
NASB – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
RSV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
ASV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
YNG – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d;
DBY – In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
WEB – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
HNV – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.
He who is 'elohim a word of himself, the manifestation or expression of himself to those without him. His conscious personal existence literally his essence.
Of whom he speaks—The Word—ho logos. This is an idiom peculiar to John’s writings. See 1 Jn. 1:1; 5:7; Rev. 19:13. Yet some think that Yeshua HaMoshiach is meant by the Word in Acts 20:32; Heb. 4:12; Lu. 1:2.
The Chaldee paraphrase very frequently calls the Messiah Memra—the Word of Yehovah, and speaks of many things in the Old Testament, said to be done by the Lord, as done by that Word of the Lord. Even the vulgar Jews were taught that the Word of G-d was the same with G-d.
Word is two-fold: logos endiathetos—word conceived; and logos prophorikos—word uttered.
The logos ho esoµ and ho exoµ, ratio and oratio—intelligence and utterance.
In the beginning was the Word: Word translated the ancient the Greek word Logos. The idea of the logos had deep and rich roots in both Jewish and Greek thinking.
Jewish rabbis often referred to 'elohim, especially in His more personal aspects, in terms of His word. They spoke of 'elohim Himself as “the word of 'elohim.”
For example, ancient Hebrew editions of the Old Testament change Exodus 19:17 (Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet 'elohim) to “Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet the word of 'elohim.” In the mind of the ancient Jews, the phrase “the word of 'elohim” could be used to refer to 'elohim Himself.
The Greek philosophers saw the logos as the power which puts sense into the world, making the world orderly instead of chaotic. The logos was the power that set the world in perfect order and kept it going in perfect order. They saw the logos as the “Ultimate Reason/Intellect” that controlled all things.
And the Word was with 'elohim, and the Word was 'elohim: With this brilliant statement, John 1:1 sets forth one of the most basic foundations of our faith. We can follow John’s logic:
There is a Being known as the Word.
This Being is 'elohim, because He is eternal (In the beginning)
This Being is 'elohim, because He is plainly called 'elohim (the Word was 'elohim).
Only the Jehovah’s Witness translation reads like this: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was a god.”
Con…….Good Post, You and martian and Kerwin and Adam are solid in your understanding of Jesus non preexistence other then in the plan of GOD. I only wish T8 and others could come to see this.Peace and blessings to you all with much love……………….gene
Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,04:14) Quote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,03:32) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,20:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!
That is right John 1:1 doesn't specifically say that it was Jesus. Try this one.“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
Who was with God in the beginning? Who is the life? Who is identified as the Word of God.
He was given the name Yeshua or something similar when he was born into this world.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Where is the mention that Jesus is God and by believing that you have life in his name?
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Where is it written that the foundation of the church is believing that Jesus is God? It is not written.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Heed the above words. They are scripture. Whatever the excuse for not heeding them is, it makes no difference. You will still be accountable for these words because you have heard these words and read these words.
Is God your father? If so, then according to the scripture above, you would believe that he came from God. Instead you teach that he is God. Surely even your conscience must be asking you to not ignore this.
Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Now consider a God who has reasoning power and a thinking capability. He sets out to achieve a purpose. That purpose is to create beings in His likeness and image. Beings that will mature and develop character like His. God has an idea (word) to make his purpose come about. As a reasoning creature His idea turns into a plan.“That which was from the beginning,(the plan was with God from the beginning) which we have heard, (they were taught of the plan all their lives) which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands,
(Now if the scripture stopped here there would be a point that Jesus is the word, however the use of the word “concerning” indicates an explanation of the previous text.
concerning the word of life (concerning the plan of life) and the life was manifested, (That plan for life was revealed to us) and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
(This life was with the father from the beginning. We are promised eternal life. When God created Adam He breathes the breath of life into him. Job speaks of the breath leaving when one dies. “Breath” in the Hebrew mind carries the meaning of life. God revealed what it means to have life more abundantly by showing a human that acquired it. The eternal life that we are promised was manifested or revealed in Christ. Jesus said he came to give life more abundantly.)Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Christ means the anointed one. Man needs an anointing not God.
simon Peter was saying you are the anointed man the son of God.
It is upon the revelation that Christ is the anointed human son of God that the church is built.Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
If being sent from God denotes deity then John is deity too.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.Worse then that We are told that we should believe through John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.John 17
14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(“As” in the same way you sent me, I send them. Are we Gods?)
19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
martian There are other Scriptures that show us that Christ is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse16
For by Him all things were created, that are in Heaven and that are in earth……….
verse 17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18
Christ is also the firstborn from the dead, that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
God created or Psalms says brought forth Jesus and then He gave Him the power to created everything else.
Also Jesus knew that He had been with the Father before the world was.
John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.There also Scriptures that call Jesus God not only in John 1:1 but also in
Hebrew 1:8 Prove all things,
Peace and Love Irene
I will deal with your scriptures when you admit that the ones I have already dealt with are accurate. I am not going to play hopscotch all over the bible to no avail.
me of the scriptures that you post I have dealt with 3 times. I see no point in dealing with them again.T8………your adding thought to what scripture actually says brother, you need to look at the context as martian, Con and ADAM brought out they have expressed it properly brother, please take time to think about what we are saying.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,04:14) Quote (martian @ Dec. 05 2009,03:32) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,20:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!
That is right John 1:1 doesn't specifically say that it was Jesus. Try this one.“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
Who was with God in the beginning? Who is the life? Who is identified as the Word of God.
He was given the name Yeshua or something similar when he was born into this world.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2009,16:59) What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Where is the mention that Jesus is God and by believing that you have life in his name?
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Where is it written that the foundation of the church is believing that Jesus is God? It is not written.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Heed the above words. They are scripture. Whatever the excuse for not heeding them is, it makes no difference. You will still be accountable for these words because you have heard these words and read these words.
Is God your father? If so, then according to the scripture above, you would believe that he came from God. Instead you teach that he is God. Surely even your conscience must be asking you to not ignore this.
Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Now consider a God who has reasoning power and a thinking capability. He sets out to achieve a purpose. That purpose is to create beings in His likeness and image. Beings that will mature and develop character like His. God has an idea (word) to make his purpose come about. As a reasoning creature His idea turns into a plan.“That which was from the beginning,(the plan was with God from the beginning) which we have heard, (they were taught of the plan all their lives) which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands,
(Now if the scripture stopped here there would be a point that Jesus is the word, however the use of the word “concerning” indicates an explanation of the previous text.
concerning the word of life (concerning the plan of life) and the life was manifested, (That plan for life was revealed to us) and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
(This life was with the father from the beginning. We are promised eternal life. When God created Adam He breathes the breath of life into him. Job speaks of the breath leaving when one dies. “Breath” in the Hebrew mind carries the meaning of life. God revealed what it means to have life more abundantly by showing a human that acquired it. The eternal life that we are promised was manifested or revealed in Christ. Jesus said he came to give life more abundantly.)Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Christ means the anointed one. Man needs an anointing not God.
simon Peter was saying you are the anointed man the son of God.
It is upon the revelation that Christ is the anointed human son of God that the church is built.Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
If being sent from God denotes deity then John is deity too.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.Worse then that We are told that we should believe through John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.John 17
14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(“As” in the same way you sent me, I send them. Are we Gods?)
19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
martian There are other Scriptures that show us that Christ is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse16
For by Him all things were created, that are in Heaven and that are in earth……….
verse 17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18
Christ is also the firstborn from the dead, that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14
These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
God created or Psalms says brought forth Jesus and then He gave Him the power to created everything else.
Also Jesus knew that He had been with the Father before the world was.
John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.There also Scriptures that call Jesus God not only in John 1:1 but also in
Hebrew 1:8 Prove all things,
Peace and Love Irene
I have dealt with this section of verse before, but I will briefly go over it again.15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.Verse sixteen starts with the term “for” in the Greek it is “because”. scripture is about to say why Jesus is the first of all creation. The second word in the verse is not “by” but “in”. This verse is talking about the importance of Christ in completing what God started to do. Without Christ nothing has meaning.
Scripture must be understood within the culture in what written. In Hebrew culture there is no concept of creating from nothing. It carries the meaning of fattening or bringing to completion the work. In Christ everything is brought to completion. Everything is fulfilled. Everything is fattened through him.
Verse 17 – He is in preeminence before all things. First in line.Now read verse 18
18He is also head of the body, (position of preeminence) the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, (first to be raised from the dead to eternal life) so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. (first place in all of creation and all of creation has meaning “in” him)this portion of scripture is not about a time frame for Christ existence. It is about Christ’s preeminence over all creation and that all of creation finds it’s purpose “in” Christ.
Martian said:
Quote Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Martian,
Well now my friend. If you payed good attention to what you read in the dictionaries you would know that the word “logos” has as its root “legoo” which means “to say or speak.” It is not about a mere statement or expressed idea. It is not about what is spoken. It is about the Speaker Himself. Was John saying that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” created all things (vs. 3)? Of course not. He was saying that a Speaker, that is, a person created all things.Are you asking us to believe that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” became flesh?
I certainly hope not. John was saying that a Speaker, that is, a person became flesh. Therefore, that Speaker was pre-existent!Note that verse 18 says that “no man has seen God at any time but the only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father. He has EXEGETED Him.” The “speaker” of John 1:1 is the one who exegeted (verb) of verse 18.
Are you asking us to believe that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” exegeted God to us?
You need to trash all your presuppositions and start over. The root “legoo” requires that we understand the “logos” not as mere speech or expressed idea but as “speaker.” “In the beginning was the Speaker, and the Speaker was with God and the Speaker was what God was.”
thinker
hi tk
I have no trouble with your explanation,exept it should be “and the WORD WAS AN GOD”because he is not God,because if he was God,God has confused us and lied, in the knowledge he as transmitted to us.
since this is totaly imposible,the Word was created as the inbetween being to put forward all the new creation God was intend to make,the scriptures said nothing was done whitout the Word,since this is true,this is the reason why Christ(Word) was the only one able to sacrifice is live,and open the book in revelation,and become the second after God.Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,05:45) Martian said: Quote Before dealing with some scriptures, I will attempt to define “word” one more time. Every Bible dictionary I have ever read gives the primary meaning as a statement, speech or expressed idea. Martian,
Well now my friend. If you payed good attention to what you read in the dictionaries you would know that the word “logos” has as its root “legoo” which means “to say or speak.” It is not about a mere statement or expressed idea. It is not about what is spoken. It is about the Speaker Himself. Was John saying that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” created all things (vs. 3)? Of course not. He was saying that a Speaker, that is, a person created all things.Are you asking us to believe that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” became flesh?
I certainly hope not. John was saying that a Speaker, that is, a person became flesh. Therefore, that Speaker was pre-existent!Note that verse 18 says that “no man has seen God at any time but the only begotten Son who was in the bosom of the Father. He has EXEGETED Him.” The “speaker” of John 1:1 is the one who exegeted (verb) of verse 18.
Are you asking us to believe that a “statement” or an “expressed idea” exegeted God to us?
You need to trash all your presuppositions and start over. The root “legoo” requires that we understand the “logos” not as mere speech or expressed idea but as “speaker.” “In the beginning was the Speaker, and the Speaker was with God and the Speaker was what God was.”
thinker
you start out with an assumption that Christ is equal to Logos.
There is no linguistic reason to interpret Logos in John 1 as Jesus. No literature of the time uses logos in that way or to denote a personage of any kind. In over 350 times logos is used in scripture it is only defined (by some) Jesus 6 or 8 times. The overwhelming evidence in both Greek literature of the time and the overwhelming evidence in scripture itself points to a definition as statement speech or idea.
There are sources that will attempt to validate a definition of Jesus but it is not based on sound linguistic evidence. It is based more on tradition then real evidence. Much like they attempt to justify the Trinity.
I admit that John 1 can be difficult to understand, but that is more due to our lack of thinking as the Hebrews did and not as the current Western cultures look at things. Even though John wrote in Greek he still thought and perceived his world and his God from a purely Hebrew way. John and the others had the unenviable task of expressing Hebrew concepts and understandings to a Greek thinking world. As I have posted many many times the Hebrews did not see God as “He is …………..” the saw God as “He functions as ……..”
Moses bowed down before the burning bush and turned away because He was afraid to look at God. The bush (and the angel of the Lord in it) functioned as God to Moses and Moses reacted to it as if it were God Himself. To him it was God. This expression of God WAS God to Moses.
Psalms 82 YHWH rebukes the leaders of Israel for not being Gods to the people. Jesus quotes these scriptures in John 10 to rebuke the Pharisees for not being Gods to the people. Did YHWH and Jesus expect them to be literal Gods? Of course not! They did expect them to function as Gods to the people and to relate to them as God would.
This also ties in to the personal way in which the Hebrews saw things. The Hebrews did not understand an object (or person) by comparing it to itself but rather by comparing it to the Hebrew himself. We might say “God is love” A Hebrew would say ” God loves me”. It was viewed personally. In fact there is no word for “is” in the Hebrew language. The closest one could get is “functions as” or “relates to me as”. In our modern English language one could also say be like God, in the form of God, expressed image of God, represent God ect. Any of these sound failure? Now we may not be any of these things in a perfect manner, but there was one man who was. He opened the door and made a way for us to be continually developing that perfection in ourselves. With the wind/breath/spirit of God blowing on us we are transformed from glory to glory.
Back to John 1 —
“In the beginning was the Logos”
In the beginning was a concept/idea.
“And the Logos was with God”
and the idea reflected as in a mirror God
“And the logos was God”
This idea expressed who God was and how He wanted to relate to and function toward His children. (Again Hebrew parallelism saying the same thing in two or more ways.)
“This was in beginning toward God” (actual Greek)
From the beginning this idea/expression was a mirror toward God reflecting who God was.
“All things come into being through him and apart from him nothings came into being that has come into being.” (actual Greek).
God created all things and nothing has existence outside of God.
“In Him was life and the life was the light of men”.
God is the source of Light and life.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.All the previous verse are talking about God and not about Jesus. The next verses begin to speak of Jesus.
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
God’s idea came to fruition. 1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
The Greek does not use the word “existed” it says Jesus is before John, but in preeminence. Jesus being the forerunner and firstborn. Verse 16 and 17 explain why Jesus is preeminent over John.
16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Again Jesus is related to and spoken of as God because of the way He functioned. He fully represented and expressed God.I appreciate that it is hard to think in the Hebrew way, but it is imperative that we do so in order to understand scriptur
e from within the culture it was written.Lots has been said about John 1. Lots of opinions, but what does the actual Greek say?
In the Interlinear (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm) John 1:1 is translated literally:
1:1 In original (beginning) was the saying (word/utterance) and the saying(word/utterance) was toward (in relation to) the God and God was the saying (word/utterance).
1:2 This was in original (beginning) toward (in relation to) the God.
1:14 And the saying (word/utterance) flesh became and booths (tabernacles) in (among) us and we gaze the esteem (glory) of him esteem (glory) as of only generated (only begotten one) beside father full of grace and truth.
{There is no proof in the Greek originals which shows that the word was a living person prior to the decree as in: Jesus was the “word” immaterial, then became the “word” material;.}
This would mean the indefinite article “a” does not belong in John 1:1 because the word/utterance/saying was God. {λόγος = oration, reason, speech, word, logos}
It belonged to and originated with God just as it shows, as an utterance, speech or idea not a person.
Verse 14: That utterance, saying, word, became flesh manifest as Jesus.
So the personification of the term logos/word did not happen until verse 14 when Jesus became flesh.
The interlinear shows “word” is simply the utterance (or decree) of God. The finality of that specific utterance manifested itself as Jesus in the flesh. So then in essence Jesus became the “word” or the fulfillment of that “word.”I have posted several scriptures showing that good teaching produces good fruit like the building up of the saints and instruction in righteousness.
Your doctrine does not do either.
Christ talks all through the gospels about judging things and people by their fruits. And yet you dismiss this as not important.What I am interested in is learning doctrine that will produce good fruit in my life.
Philosophical, scriptural, doctrinal debates on a forum are no more then entertainment UNLESS a person can glean a teaching or truth that actually produces something in them. something that God desires in them. something like the character of God or understanding of christ as our example. Perhaps hope or edification or instructions toward righteousness.
I am using the forum as a form of entertainment. When I get on the other side and God asks me what I did in my life to become like him in character. I am surely not going to say I debated on a forum or that I defended a doctrine that could not produce that character change.
I am not going to say that I defended a doctrine that did not edify or teach me the path of righteousness or any other good fruit.
I am not going to tell God that it is not important what fruit my teaching produced. I am not going to demand that God check out my scriptures I use to defend my doctrine. (no matter how much my often deceived intellect tells me I am right)
I am not going to tell God that I defended the traditional doctrines of the church no matter how little fruit they produced.
I am not going to tell God that I planted seeds of doctrine that dried up and died producing no fruit.I pray I will be able to show that what I taught made Christ a very clear example for me and others on how a human should walk with God That example being made perfectly clear with the understanding that he did it as a human just like me.
I pray that others will see Christ as their brother that understands them perfectly because he has suffered and endured as a man just like us. (not hybrid God/man but just like us)
I pray that others will see how precious they are to God by seeing what stock God put on one just like us that completed his plan even unto death.
I pray others will be able to say from what I teach that they can overcome and have hope because they now know that a man made just like them with no special augmentation/dual-nature has completed the race and overcome.
I pray that others will understand that they can know Christ their brother without having to rely on some mystery and that they can have the same breath of God in them that was in their brother, Christ.
I pray that they will be able to see that they can become one with their heavenly Father even as Christ, their brother, was one with him.
I pray that they will be able to see the relationship between their human brother Christ and YHWH without resorting to some mystical explanation.
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