Preexistence

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,04:55)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,04:44) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,04:26) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 03 2009,04:12) To All…………The trinity and Preexistence are indeed (mysterious and illogical) those who preach them don't understand them and when cornered they say well, it's a (MYSTERY) and indeed it is a MYSTERY RELIGION, and has to be taken on “FAITH”< BLIND FAITH. IMO peace and love to all……………..gene Gene, Paul said that the ways of God are mysterious. Does this mean that His ways are illogical? 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!       34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?      Or who has become His counselor?”       35 “ Or who has first given to Him      And it shall be repaid to him?” By your logic God's ways are also illogical because they are mysterious. Paul said that the incarnation is a “mystery.” This is not WJ's word. thinker Again you pull out words not in scripture. show me where Paul uses the word “incarnation”. Come on! The word “incarnation” is the word for God coming IN the flesh. Thus, you have the word “incarnation.” Paul said that His being manifested “IN the flesh” is the “great mystery of godliness.” Again, it is Paul you ought to be accusing of pulling out the “mystery card.” WJ is not responsible for saying it is a mystery. thinker

Incarnation carries the bias of saying that God somehow became flesh or that God dwelled in some flesh body as in a dual nature.
These concepts are not clear in the scripture.
Are you filled with the Holy spirit? If so we can say that when you walk in the room that God has come in the flesh. Are you deity?

First one must understand the context. Read the entire chapter. —

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.
13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
 He who was revealed in the flesh,
 Was vindicated in the Spirit,
 Seen by angels,
 Proclaimed among the nations,
 Believed on in the world,
 Taken up in glory.

Notice the entire context is about a “man” that is aspiring to be an overseer. Paul teaches what is required to be such. He teaches how one should conduct oneself in church. How to be godly.

1Ti 3:16 –
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Three words of importance. By adding the definition of the words into the context the verse becomes clear.

Godliness =
reverence, respect
piety towards God, godliness

Manifested =
of a person
expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
to become known, to be plainly recognised,

flesh=
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
the body
the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation
the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”
without any suggestion of depravity
the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

1Ti 3:16 –
By common confession, great is the mystery of reverence, respect and piety toward God. He who was exposed to view, made manifest, showed one's self, became known, and plainly recognised in the human nature, and the earthly nature of man, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Nothing in this verse denotes deity. From the context Paul is comparing the way Christ behaved as an example of reverence toward God. Comparing Christ behavior to those who would be overseers.

This is also another of the examples of Christ being compared to humanity. Unless Christ is human the comparison is invalid.
Christ is used as an example for the overseers. If Christ is God the example is invalid. How can the overseers have the same reverence and respect toward God as God?
Does Christ the God need to have reverence and respect toward himself (God)

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,04:55)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,04:44) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,04:26) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 03 2009,04:12) To All…………The trinity and Preexistence are indeed (mysterious and illogical) those who preach them don't understand them and when cornered they say well, it's a (MYSTERY) and indeed it is a MYSTERY RELIGION, and has to be taken on “FAITH”< BLIND FAITH. IMO peace and love to all……………..gene Gene, Paul said that the ways of God are mysterious. Does this mean that His ways are illogical? 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!       34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?      Or who has become His counselor?”       35 “ Or who has first given to Him      And it shall be repaid to him?” By your logic God's ways are also illogical because they are mysterious. Paul said that the incarnation is a “mystery.” This is not WJ's word. thinker Again you pull out words not in scripture. show me where Paul uses the word “incarnation”. Come on! The word “incarnation” is the word for God coming IN the flesh. Thus, you have the word “incarnation.” Paul said that His being manifested “IN the flesh” is the “great mystery of godliness.” Again, it is Paul you ought to be accusing of pulling out the “mystery card.” WJ is not responsible for saying it is a mystery. thinker

Incarnation carries the bias of saying that God somehow became flesh or that God dwelled in some flesh body as in a dual nature.
These concepts are not clear in the scripture.
Are you filled with the Holy spirit? If so we can say that when you walk in the room that God has come in the flesh.  Are you deity?

First one must understand the context. Read the entire chapter. —

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.
13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
         He who was revealed in the flesh,
         Was vindicated in the Spirit,
         Seen by angels,
         Proclaimed among the nations,
         Believed on in the world,
         Taken up in glory.

Notice the entire context is about a “man” that is aspiring to be an overseer. Paul teaches what is required to be such. He teaches how one should conduct oneself in church. How to be godly.

1Ti 3:16 –  
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Three words of importance. By adding the definition of the words into the context the verse becomes clear.

Godliness =
reverence, respect
piety towards God, godliness

Manifested =
of a person
expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
to become known, to be plainly recognised,

flesh=
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
the body
the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
born of natural generation
the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature”
without any suggestion of depravity
the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

1Ti 3:16 –  
By common confession, great is the mystery of reverence, respect and piety toward God.  He who was exposed to view, made manifest, showed one's self, became known, and plainly recognised in the human nature, and the earthly nature of man, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Nothing in this verse denotes deity. From the context Paul is comparing the way Christ behaved as an example of reverence toward God. Comparing Christ behavior to those who would be overseers.

This is also another of the examples of Christ being compared to humanity. Unless Christ is human the comparison is invalid.
Christ is used as an example for the overseers. If Christ is God the example is invalid. How can the overseers have the same reverence and respect toward God as God?
Does Christ the God need to have reverence and respect toward himself (God)

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

Notice the entire context is about a “man” that is aspiring to be an overseer.

A mere man aspiring to be an overseer is a “great mystery?” It gets more ridiculous every day.

Martian:

Quote

Unless Christ is human the comparison is invalid.

This statement is true as far as it goes. However, unless Jesus is also God it is no “great mystery” now is it? It clearly says that He (God) was manifested in the flesh.

thinker

[banana]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,03:59)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:52) Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,21:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question. If Worshiping Jesus means illogical when he states mystery I have to agree.  I also agree that God is not an illogical God. Perhaps you should define “worship”. The word is not restricted to worshiping of a God. It simply means to prostrate oneself in respect. Matian is still on the meds I see. However you wish to define the term “worship” does not matter because Christ receives it WITH the Father: 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power      Be to Him who sits on the throne,      And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” What part of “and to the Lamb” do you not understand? Try posting before you take your meds so you may acquire a little more coherence when you speak. It doesn't matter how you define “worship” for it is to be given to the Father “and to the Lamb.” And don't put too much stock in that novice Constitutionalist who tries to pass himself off as educated. thinker so you are saying that because worship is given to God and to the lamb that this proves that the lamb is deity? Ex 18:7 Mosses gives worship to his father.  Is Mosses father also deity? Worship is simply bowing down and placing your head on the ground in respect. It can be given to God and to man. The lamb of God is very worthy of respect. All power in heaven and Earth is given to him. the creation bows to the one who has been given that authority over it. BTW The lamb was given the authority because he did not have the authority on his own.

I believe that worship is much much more then what you say. As far as I am concerned I worship our Heavenly Father by singing and praying to Him.. I don't do that to any man or even Christ. To Christ I give Honor and respect as a Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Worship belongs to our Father IMO.
I can bow down to Christ in respect.
I don't believe in a trinity.
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 02 2009,03:23)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2009,00:16) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 02 2009,02:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 30 2009,22:22) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 30 2009,20:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 30 2009,17:05) Marty That is how you see it. But an honest look at Phil 2:6-8 and John 1:1, 14 and other scriptures does not agree with you IMO! Jesus forgave sins against God because only God could do that! No other had power to forgive sins against God. We can only forgive those who sin against us! Not so with Jesus our Great God and Saviour! Titus 2:13 WJ Why have the Jews and all others of time since the Old Testament believe in “ONE” 'elohim for over 6000 years, and you believe in three gods? Why do you only subscribe to the the councils descisision of three gods set forth by the Romans? And you only find a problem with us. Con Plurality of Unity! The entire universe reveals the Glory of God! The molecular structure of the Universe is triune! The Atom is one yet 3, proton, neutron, and electron! One cannot do without the other, or the Atom would fly apart. Scientist know nothing of the Mystery of the Atom and what holds it together! “By Jesus all things consist” and are upheld by the word of HIS power. Col 1:16, 17, Heb 1:3 Just as scientist know nothing of the mystery of the Atom, so does the “carnal man” know nothing of the Plural nature of God! Great is the Mystery of Godliness, God was manifest in the flesh! WJ So Yahweh cannot exist without Yeshua HaMoshiach? Will he fly apart too? Quote Just as scientist know nothing of the mystery of the Atom, so does the “carnal man” know nothing of the Plural nature of God! Maybe it's because he isn't plural. If Yahweh elightens you to know the things you should, then why hasn't cleared up this thing about plurality? Also the bible in itself discusses and debates just about everything one can think of, why is it the bible is silent on this discussion? Con The Scriptures as always are silent to those who do not have ears to hear. Jesus spoke many things that were hard to be understood, but to the pure in heart they believed his words! WJ You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question.

Con

I did answer you!

Great is the mystery of Godliness, he was manifest in the flesh!

Understanding the plurality of God can only be seen by the Spirit of revelation. The Apostles themselves at times did not know him even when he walked and talked with them.

It wasn't until their eyes were opened that they saw him and knew it was him.

Knowing Jesus nature as God is only revealed by the Spirit for no man can know Jesus apart from the Spirit, and no man can know the Father without Jesus revealing him.

He will not reveal himself to those whose hearts are far from him and do not honor him even as they honor the Father!

Thomas learned this by his own unbelief in who he was, even though he knew that Jesus had claimed he would raise his own temple (body) from the dead in three days. Yet when he sees him then his confession without rebuke from Jesus or John the witness was…

“my Lord and my God” or literally “the Lord of me and the God of me”!

If you see Jesus who is the visible image of the invisible God as less than God then you have a false image of God and do not know him, for Jesus came to make God known.

“**If ye had known me**, ye should have known my Father also: “and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him“. John 14:7

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Martian

Quote (martian @ Dec. 02 2009,17:42)

Incarnation carries the bias of saying that God somehow became flesh or that God dwelled in some flesh body as in a dual nature. These concepts are not clear in the scripture.

This is a fallacy and a straw man!

We have dual natures, we have a sinful nature which controls the flesh and its lust, but we also share in the divine nature, the New Man or New Creation man that is born of his Spirit from above! We can walk in the flesh or the Spirit!

One nature is of this world, the other is from above!

So for God to come in the likeness of human flesh and be found in fashion as a man is not only possible but according to Phil 2:6-8 is a reality and in fact had to happen to make a way for us to overcome because he came to destroy sin in the flesh and now through his Spirit in us makes us overcomers, no mere man could do that!

Tell me Martian, did any other have the Spirit without measure?

WJ

[martian]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,11:53)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,03:59) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:52) Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,21:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question. If Worshiping Jesus means illogical when he states mystery I have to agree.  I also agree that God is not an illogical God. Perhaps you should define “worship”. The word is not restricted to worshiping of a God. It simply means to prostrate oneself in respect. Matian is still on the meds I see. However you wish to define the term “worship” does not matter because Christ receives it WITH the Father: 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power      Be to Him who sits on the throne,      And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” What part of “and to the Lamb” do you not understand? Try posting before you take your meds so you may acquire a little more coherence when you speak. It doesn't matter how you define “worship” for it is to be given to the Father “and to the Lamb.” And don't put too much stock in that novice Constitutionalist who tries to pass himself off as educated. thinker so you are saying that because worship is given to God and to the lamb that this proves that the lamb is deity? Ex 18:7 Mosses gives worship to his father.  Is Mosses father also deity? Worship is simply bowing down and placing your head on the ground in respect. It can be given to God and to man. The lamb of God is very worthy of respect. All power in heaven and Earth is given to him. the creation bows to the one who has been given that authority over it. BTW The lamb was given the authority because he did not have the authority on his own. I believe that worship is much much more then what you say.  As far as I am concerned I worship our Heavenly Father by singing and praying to Him.. I don't do that to any man or even Christ.  To Christ I give Honor and respect as a Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  Worship belongs to our Father IMO. I can bow down to Christ in respect. I don't believe in a trinity. Peace and Love Irene

There is no problem with the way in which you interface with the Father and christ. I was simply pointing out the biblical definition of worship. I was attempting to point out that worship as described in scripture is not restricted to God.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,10:03)

Martian said: Quote Notice the entire context is about a “man” that is aspiring to be an overseer. A mere man aspiring to be an overseer is a “great mystery?” It gets more ridiculous every day. Martian: Quote Unless Christ is human the comparison is invalid. This statement is true as far as it goes. However, unless Jesus is also God it is no “great mystery” now is it? It clearly says that He (God) was manifested in the flesh. thinker

Talk about silly responses. I did not say the mystery was an overseer, but the mystery is how a human can be godly.

The mystery is how a normal human can become one with God. (Jesus and us) this is the purpose for Christ as our example.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:52)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 03 2009,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,21:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote You did not answer my question. You say it is a mystery and know one can understand trinity! Why would 'elohim keep it a mystery? There is no reason to keep it a mystery. Well answer my question. If Worshiping Jesus means illogical when he states mystery I have to agree.  I also agree that God is not an illogical God. Perhaps you should define “worship”. The word is not restricted to worshiping of a God. It simply means to prostrate oneself in respect. Matian is still on the meds I see. However you wish to define the term “worship” does not matter because Christ receives it WITH the Father: 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power      Be to Him who sits on the throne,      And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” What part of “and to the Lamb” do you not understand? Try posting before you take your meds so you may acquire a little more coherence when you speak. It doesn't matter how you define “worship” for it is to be given to the Father “and to the Lamb.” And don't put too much stock in that novice Constitutionalist who tries to pass himself off as educated. thinker

The thinker –
I have been meaning to address two of your posts.
I must say that I have never in over 4 years of being on forums such completely evil words.
Here is what you said —

Martian,
There you go speaking through the meds again.
And you say –
Matian is still on the meds I see.

I hope you never get sick, but if you do I hope the scripture will be fulfilled in your life. In other words that you will be judged as you judged others. I hope you will have someone make a joke out of it and publish in a public format.
Your actions disgust me.

[GeneBalthrop]

Martian………I agree with your assessment about thinkers words . Just conceder the source and let it go Brother.

Peace and pove to you and yours…………………..gene

[princess of the king]

Thinker must downgrade so he feels upgraded, due to his inability to be the created man Yahweh requires.

for what ales him, medicine could not cure

kol tuv martian

[martian]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 04 2009,02:37)

Martian………I agree with your assessment about thinkers words . Just conceder the source and let it go Brother. Peace and pove to you and yours…………………..gene

Hi Gene,
Perhaps I was a bit harsh on thethinker. After all I was expecting him to act in a manner that Jesus might act. However Because thethinker believes Jesus is a God, he cannot use Him as an example.
Aaaahhhh — the fruits of the Jesus=God doctrine.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 03 2009,17:09)

So for God to come in the likeness of human flesh and be found in fashion as a man is not only possible but according to Phil 2:6-8 is a reality and in fact had to happen to make a way for us to overcome because he came to destroy sin in the flesh and now through his Spirit in us makes us overcomers, no mere man could do that!

Actually if you look closely you will find that the Word that was with God that came in human flesh and was found in fashion as a man.

It was Jesus who came in the flesh not God. God is his Father and another identity.

Jesus emptied himself, took on flesh, lived as a man, trusted in God, died for our sins, was taken to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

John who penned John 1:1 also said that his book was written for this purpose:

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Without realising it, many Trinitarians, Moslems, and other belief systems fail this acid test.

It seems that some say he is God, just a created man, a prophet, a mad man, whatever. Anything it seems but what the Spirit declares; that he is the messiah and the son of the living God. All who are of the truth will agree with this truth when it is told to them.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…….You have it wrong , GOD came into the flesh of Jesus at the Jordan river, that was the time GOD cohabited with Jesus in His flesh, GOD was (IN) Jesus via HOLY SPIRIT and Spoke (through) him. He had the fullness of the Spirit of GOD (IN) him all seven of them.as Revelations shows. Why do you think Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM. He did not say he Preexisted or was another GOD or that he was the WORD of GOD either, But said He Spoke GOD'S words to US. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[Anonymous]

Gene, There is only one true Lord, Who is it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 03 2009,21:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 03 2009,17:09) So for God to come in the likeness of human flesh and be found in fashion as a man is not only possible but according to Phil 2:6-8 is a reality and in fact had to happen to make a way for us to overcome because he came to destroy sin in the flesh and now through his Spirit in us makes us overcomers, no mere man could do that! Actually if you look closely you will find that the Word that was with God that came in human flesh and was found in fashion as a man. It was Jesus who came in the flesh not God. God is his Father and another identity. Jesus emptied himself, took on flesh, lived as a man, trusted in God, died for our sins, was taken to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. John who penned John 1:1 also said that his book was written for this purpose: John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Without realising it, many Trinitarians, Moslems, and other belief systems fail this acid test. It seems that some say he is God, just a created man, a prophet, a mad man, whatever. Anything it seems but what the Spirit declares; that he is the messiah and the son of the living God. All who are of the truth will agree with this truth when it is told to them.

t8

Yadyyaday!

Of course he is not the Father. “Theos” doesn't define Identity does it?

John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus, it says the “Word was God”!

John was no idiot to use “Theos” in the same breath in John 1:1c if he didn't mean Jesus was equal to the Father in nature.

What did he empty himself of t8? A quality of nature that was less than the Fathers? So some sort of demi-god emptied himself to be found in fashion as a man?

Tell me, if he was born from the Father before he came in the flesh or is a created being of some sort, not man and not God, (must have been an angel like the JWs believe) then why did he have to empty himself of anything?

What acid test t8, that Jesus the “Only” Son of God is God like you the son of your Father is human?

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 03 2009,21:24)

It seems that some say he is God, just a created man, a prophet, a mad man, whatever. Anything it seems but what the Spirit declares; that he is the messiah and the son of the living God. All who are of the truth will agree with this truth when it is told to them.

And yet they all say that he is the Son of God, so it is a matter of how one defines the “Only Son of God”?

You say he is not a mere man and yet he isn't God. So that must mean that he is some sort of demi-god or half breed, half god and half man!

It seems that Henotheist are the only ones who do not fully define what he is!

WJ

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (katjo @ Dec. 03 2009,20:58)

Gene, There is only one true Lord, Who is it?

define lord

[terraricca]

hi wc
you know some translation quote John 1-1 as “and the WORD WAS A GOD' I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE ACCURATE,dont you think

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 04 2009,13:41)

T8…….You have it wrong , GOD came into the flesh of Jesus at the Jordan river, that was the time GOD cohabited with Jesus in His flesh, GOD was (IN) Jesus via HOLY SPIRIT and Spoke (through) him. He had the fullness of the Spirit of GOD (IN) him all seven of them.as Revelations shows. Why do you think Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM. He did not say he Preexisted  or was another GOD or that he was the WORD of GOD either, But said He Spoke GOD'S words to US.  IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Amen to that post brother Gene. People make God as literal flesh and blood father of Jesus. I do agree that Jesus became son of God when he was anointed by God with His Holy Spirit at Jordan and was declared by God at that time saying “Today I have begotten thee”.

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Quote (Gene @ Dec. 04 2009,13:41)

T8…….You have it wrong , GOD came into the flesh of Jesus at the Jordan river, that was the time GOD cohabited with Jesus in His flesh, GOD was (IN) Jesus via HOLY SPIRIT and Spoke (through) him. He had the fullness of the Spirit of GOD (IN) him all seven of them.as Revelations shows. Why do you think Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM. He did not say he Preexisted  or was another GOD or that he was the WORD of GOD either, But said He Spoke GOD'S words to US.  IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Sorry Gene. Everything I said is scriptural. I will prove it.

Have another look at what I said.

“Jesus emptied himself, took on flesh, lived as a man, trusted in God, died for our sins, was taken to the glory he had with the Father before the world began.”

Then compare with the following:

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