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Quote (katjo @ Nov. 23 2009,14:02) Here is some scriptures to think about!! scripture teaches the Godhead existed before the world was created. Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God (Psalm 90:2).
In Proverbs we read.
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began (Proverbs 8:23).
John wrote.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).
Paul wrote.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).
Therefore the Bible gives both direct and indirect evidence of God creating the universe.
Creation Was Supernatural
The account of creation recorded in the Bible is a supernatural work of God. The Lord says:
I am the Lord,(NO CAPITAL) who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone (Isaiah 44:24).
The Word of the Lord accomplished Creation,
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap . . . For he spoke, and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast (Psalm 33:6,7,9).
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know (Job 38:4,5).
Creation Was Out Of Nothing
You are worthy, O Lord,(NO CAPITALS) to receive glory and honor and power; for you created all things, and by your will they exist and were created (Revelation 4:11).Scripture also teaches that each member of the Godhead existed before the world was created.
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God (Psalm 90:2).
In Proverbs we read.
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began (Proverbs 8:23).
John wrote.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).
Paul wrote.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).
Therefore the Bible gives both direct and indirect evidence of God creating the universe.
Creation Was Supernatural
The account of creation recorded in the Bible is a supernatural work of God. The Lord says:
I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone (Isaiah 44:24).
The Word of the Lord accomplished Creation,
By the word of the Lord ( NO CAPITALS)the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap . . . For he spoke, and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast (Psalm 33:6,7,9).
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know (Job 38:4,5).
In addition, the New Testament makes it clear that God created the universe by His spoken Word alone:
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible (Hebrews 11:3).
katjo
Create caries a meaning in Hebrew not considered in our English translations. The word used in Hebrew is “bara” it means to make fat or to fatten. the idea being of bringing something to completion. There is no concept in Hebrew of creating something out of nothing.
The NT was written by Hebrews too. The concepts of creation are carried on in the NT. Christ created everything in that He brought everything to completion. Without him nothing would be completed. He is preeminent in that he is the first to complete God's plan for man. Through Christ everything is completed.Quote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,21:20) Quote (katjo @ Nov. 24 2009,14:53) 2 Timothy 3;16 tells us God was manifest in the flesh!
And you believe that it was God the Father or His Son?
I will put up some other Scriptures and then it is you who should prove if I am right or wrong.
John 17:4and verse 5
john 3:16and 17
Rev.19:13 goes with John 1:1 and verse 14 became flesh.
the intellect became flesh, or the plan of God became flesh.
John5:37 “And the Father himself which has sent me, hath born witness of me. You have neither heard my voice at any
time, nor seen my shape.”From where did God send Jesus from?
John 3:16″For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….
verse 17 “For God send His Son into the world.
Again were did He send Him from.Genesis 1:26″And God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness……”
Who was it with the Father when He created the world?
Proverb 8:22-30
Some might think that it is wisdom being created. Did God not have Wisdom for all eternity? Wisdom is like patient, joy, happiness, love etc. God had wisdom for eternity.
The last verse, verse 30 really explains it.
And all the other Scriptures that I gave before like
Col.1:15-17
Col. 1:18 He was also the firstborn of the death so that in all He may have preeminence,
Rev.3:14
I have proven to myself after one J.H.W. came and told us about this and heeded. We all have to if not now then later. And if I am wrong, then I will have to heed. Sooner or later, my friend in Christ.
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,
As has been posted to you by me and others, to continue posting scriptures over and over is a fruitless gesture. You will never accept my interpretations and I will never accept yours. With this in mind perhaps it is wise to find another way to test our perspective doctrines.
scripture teaches us that Teaching should edify us or teach us the path of righteousness. these are fruits that should be expected from a proper doctrine. so. I ask you can you show me these fruits or any other positive fruits of your doctrine?One of the fruits is truth. If we believe the truth and can see the truth it is because the truth is in us.
God however hides things from the worldly wise and proud.The truth is the truth. So what fruit do we expect to see. Well we know that God is one. So if I believe that, then I believe the truth. It doesn't necessarily make me a person of love though. Given that, it doesn't mean we write that truth off.
To All……….The whole concept of Preexistence is a destortion of the plan and Purpose of GOD.
God's Plan…………To change all flesh and blood humans into sons and Daughters of His, and for us to truly (IMAGE) or reflect him in our lives, This Plan was from the beginning of Creation with GOD and is His intent, as expressed by GOD even in the Garden of Eden, and latter through the Prophets.
First to attain the GOAL……….God took from among men a Man Named Jesus born (exactly as we are) a 100% human son of (MAN). Having (NO) advantage over Us in any way, He gave Him HOLY SPIRIT his holy seed and Perfected Him (IN) the FLESH, Demonstrating to (ALL) humanity HIS ability to SAVE and PERFECT Humans. He raised Him from the (DEAD) the FIRST of (MANY) BROTHERS.
Reason for this………….God was (DEMONSTRATING) (HIS) CREATIVE POWERS. To all the World through Christ the first fruit from mankind.
False teaching………….That God took a preexistent Being, Killed Him and rebirth him in Mary and then Killed Him again. Totally illogical and uncharacteristic for GOD to DO that. It would (PROVE NOTHING) to anyone anyway. This (FALSE CONCEPT) of Preexistence is nothing more the Part of the TRINITY Doctrine teachings. A teaching of the MYSTERY RELIGION along with many other false teachings.
It amazes me that so many who profess to Have GOD'S Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) can't see that and understand it, It's like Paul said when you should be teachers your still have need to be taught the fundamentals yet. Maybe because the confusion is far greater then when Christianity first started. We have all been exposed to far more false teachings then those when it first started. IMO
Peace and love to you all…………………gene
Hi All
No one has touched on the Greek text which proves the Preexistence of Jesus so I thought I would bump it up!
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2009,21:56) One of the fruits is truth. If we believe the truth and can see the truth it is because the truth is in us.
God however hides things from the worldly wise and proud.The truth is the truth. So what fruit do we expect to see. Well we know that God is one. So if I believe that, then I believe the truth. It doesn't necessarily make me a person of love though. Given that, it doesn't mean we write that truth off.
Hi t8,
Do you find it interesting that “truth” is not one of the “fruits” listed of the spirit? The Holy Spirit will guide us into all the truth but it is not a fruit like love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness , faithfulness, and self-control.John 16:13
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
NASUIt is interesting to think about.
God bless,
KathiWJ…………You also say Jesus is God, but Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. Interesting How does the Greeks change that, to be an exception of the WORD GOD and Specially one who created everything that exists. Your 200 scholars have forced the text to fit your trinitarian and preexistence False teachings. Jesus was simply and (ORDINARY) Human Being Who GOD Perfected as Scripture said He did. One who (Learned) Obedience by the things He suffered. WJ who was he learning to Obey, Surely not himself because according to you He was GOD in the FLESH.
The soundness and the Logic falls apart in all kind of ways WJ. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
Lightenup……….It is the Spirit (intellect) of TRUTH that (PRODUCES) all those Fruits you speak of plus many more.
When ones eyes have been enlightened they see things differently then the world does. IMO
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2009,08:45) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2009,21:56) One of the fruits is truth. If we believe the truth and can see the truth it is because the truth is in us.
God however hides things from the worldly wise and proud.The truth is the truth. So what fruit do we expect to see. Well we know that God is one. So if I believe that, then I believe the truth. It doesn't necessarily make me a person of love though. Given that, it doesn't mean we write that truth off.
Hi t8,
Do you find it interesting that “truth” is not one of the “fruits” listed of the spirit? The Holy Spirit will guide us into all the truth but it is not a fruit like love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness , faithfulness, and self-control.John 16:13
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
NASUIt is interesting to think about.
God bless,
Kathi
Hi LU:Quote Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Quote 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Love in Christ,
MartyTo All……….Those who do the commandments are keeping them they are in there heart and minds placed there by GOD the Father, they are a NEW CREATION, Created in the Image of GOD as Jesus was also. The Commandments will never be done away with none of them but will be fulfilled by us all for ever. Remember Jesus said (thy) WILL be done, the commandments are the expressed Will of GOD and what he want done in all of us. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 28 2009,09:58) To All……….Those who do the commandments are keeping them they are in there heart and minds placed there by GOD the Father, they are a NEW CREATION, Created in the Image of GOD as Jesus was also. The Commandments will never be done away with none of them but will be fulfilled by us all for ever. Remember Jesus said (thy) WILL be done, the commandments are the expressed Will of GOD and what he want done in all of us. IMO peace and love to you all……………………gene
I agree with the words you write though perhaps not with the meaning you attach to them. I will add this though. If you truly love your neighbor as yourself then you are keeping the Law of Mosses as well as any other commandments that come from God..Gene. Jesus was not some ordinary man just like we are. I promise you that!!! jesus spoke in parrables to illustrate to us. To teach us how we should be. He is our LORD!
katjo
Katjo……….you see thats what Preexistence theology does , it separates you likeness and self identity from Jesus. That is exactly the opposite of what GOD the FATHER had in mind for us . He wanted us to understand (HIS) saving Powers , But the false teaching of the trinity and Preexistence totally destroys that conception , by advancing the idea that Jesus was truly not (EXACTLY) LIKE US. So how can people really believe that God can take and ordinary human being and perfect Him and raise him from the dead. Your mindset is exactly what Trinitarian and Preexistent theology does. It destroys the work of GOD. IMO
peace and love………………….gene
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 30 2009,06:06) Gene. Jesus was not some ordinary man just like we are. I promise you that!!! jesus spoke in parrables to illustrate to us. To teach us how we should be. He is our LORD! katjo
He was fully human:Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews Chapter 2
gene, How do you deny Col.1;16 for by HIm all things were created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth.(17) HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. Ill stop right there. How do you look over these scriptures?
katjo
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 27 2009,17:41) WJ…………You also say Jesus is God, but Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. Interesting How does the Greeks change that, to be an exception of the WORD GOD and Specially one who created everything that exists. Your 200 scholars have forced the text to fit your trinitarian and preexistence False teachings. Jesus was simply and (ORDINARY) Human Being Who GOD Perfected as Scripture said He did. One who (Learned) Obedience by the things He suffered. WJ who was he learning to Obey, Surely not himself because according to you He was GOD in the FLESH. The soundness and the Logic falls apart in all kind of ways WJ. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
GBDoes God live in your flesh? Then what makes you think the almighty who created all things cannot also change his form and come in the flesh, oh thats right, the Bible said he did just that?
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 27 2009,17:41) WJ…………You also say Jesus is God, but Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. Interesting How does the Greeks change that, to be an exception of the WORD GOD and Specially one who created everything that exists. Your 200 scholars have forced the text to fit your trinitarian and preexistence False teachings. Jesus was simply and (ORDINARY) Human Being Who GOD Perfected as Scripture said He did. One who (Learned) Obedience by the things He suffered. WJ who was he learning to Obey, Surely not himself because according to you He was GOD in the FLESH. The soundness and the Logic falls apart in all kind of ways WJ. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
GBBTW, Its over 600 scholars that translated the scriptures from the text in some 30 different versions which render John chapter 6 the same way.
Not to mention the thousands of scholars that agree and who know far more than you will ever know!
If you do not trust the translations and believe the scriptures are corrupt, then you have no right to say any of it is right until you learn Hebrew and Greek yourself!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,11:01) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 27 2009,17:41) WJ…………You also say Jesus is God, but Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. Interesting How does the Greeks change that, to be an exception of the WORD GOD and Specially one who created everything that exists. Your 200 scholars have forced the text to fit your trinitarian and preexistence False teachings. Jesus was simply and (ORDINARY) Human Being Who GOD Perfected as Scripture said He did. One who (Learned) Obedience by the things He suffered. WJ who was he learning to Obey, Surely not himself because according to you He was GOD in the FLESH. The soundness and the Logic falls apart in all kind of ways WJ. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
GBDoes God live in your flesh? Then what makes you think the almighty who created all things cannot also change his form and come in the flesh, oh thats right, the Bible said he did just that?
WJ
Hi WJ:This is what I understand the scriptures to say:
Quote 2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The scriptures state that it was God dwelling within him. How does this say that God changed his form?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 30 2009,19:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,11:01) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 27 2009,17:41) WJ…………You also say Jesus is God, but Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. Interesting How does the Greeks change that, to be an exception of the WORD GOD and Specially one who created everything that exists. Your 200 scholars have forced the text to fit your trinitarian and preexistence False teachings. Jesus was simply and (ORDINARY) Human Being Who GOD Perfected as Scripture said He did. One who (Learned) Obedience by the things He suffered. WJ who was he learning to Obey, Surely not himself because according to you He was GOD in the FLESH. The soundness and the Logic falls apart in all kind of ways WJ. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
GBDoes God live in your flesh? Then what makes you think the almighty who created all things cannot also change his form and come in the flesh, oh thats right, the Bible said he did just that?
WJ
Hi WJ:This is what I understand the scriptures to say:
Quote 2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The scriptures state that it was God dwelling within him. How does this say that God changed his form?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyFirst of all because the scriptures says the Father dwells in Jesus therefore he cannot be God would be like saying because Jesus dwells in the Father that the Father is not God.
Fallacious and a straw.
Secondly, John 1:1 and Phil 2:6-8 make it clear that Jesus the Word that was with God and who was God, being in the “form” of God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man and dwelt among us!
Before you go off and say he was in the form of God therefore he cannot be God, well is not the Father in the form of God? The Father has form doesn't he?
WJ
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