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Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,00:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,23:29) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Absolutly
OK, then why don't you go around saying it about yourself?I will tell you why.
Because it is pointless.
Jesus said it in response to the following words:
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
So if I said to you, “have you seen Abraham” I am pretty sure your answer would be just good old plain “no”.
You wouldn't bother to say “before Abraham was born, I am!”
If you deny the obvious meaning, then you are forced to render a meaning that is absolutely pointless and useless.
T8,I am and I exist.
T8 wrote:
Quote Look at the context. It is very much about 'time'.
I can certainly see where you get your interpretation though it is not consistent with verse 56 which states Jesus had a time and that Abraham rejoiced to see it.
John 8:56(KJV) reads:
Quote Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
A corresponding passage..
1 Peter 1:10-12(KJV) reads:
Quote Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
The Jewish students misunderstood and this asked a foolish question.
John 8:57(KJV) reads:
Quote “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
At this time it would make sense for Jesus to clarify his previous point.
John 8:58(KJV) reads:
Quote “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
That give credence to Gene’s interpretation.
If we roll back the context to verse 53 we will find Jesus was finishing his answer to the question:
John 8:53(KJV) reads:
Quote Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
That is where my interpretation comes from.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 22 2009,03:45) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,00:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,23:29) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Absolutly
OK, then why don't you go around saying it about yourself?I will tell you why.
Because it is pointless.
Jesus said it in response to the following words:
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
So if I said to you, “have you seen Abraham” I am pretty sure your answer would be just good old plain “no”.
You wouldn't bother to say “before Abraham was born, I am!”
If you deny the obvious meaning, then you are forced to render a meaning that is absolutely pointless and useless.
T8,I am and I exist.
You answered the question for me.I think therefore I am.
Before Abraham, I am.
Before Abraham, I exist.
T8 wrote:
Quote Without bias it seems clear that he was with the Father before the world.
I read your response and wonder if you had stopped to consider the attributes of God who knows all things even that which has not yet occurred. God was aware of Jesus before the world began and he assigned Jesus to the role he would come to occupy at that time. That is why it is written “a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,” That is the glory Jesus had with God in the beginning.
Those who believe also have glory before they exist just as it is written.
Romans 9:21-24(KJV) reads:
Quote Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
We can also ask him to glorify us with the glory he has had prepared for us before we were conceived.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2009,10:32) T8 wrote: Quote Without bias it seems clear that he was with the Father before the world.
I read your response and wonder if you had stopped to consider the attributes of God who knows all things even that which has not yet occurred. God was aware of Jesus before the world began and he assigned Jesus to the role he would come to occupy at that time. That is why it is written “a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,” That is the glory Jesus had with God in the beginning.
Those who believe also have glory before they exist just as it is written.
Romans 9:21-24(KJV) reads:
Quote Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
We can also ask him to glorify us with the glory he has had prepared for us before we were conceived.
But that is not what it means. t8 is right. That also goes along with all other Scriptures.
Col. 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
verse 16
For by Him all things are created, that are in heaven and that are in earth…..
verse 17
AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.
verse 18
this tells us that He also was the firstborn of the death. So that in all things He may have preeminence. He was first in all, firstborn of all and firstborn of the death.
Rev. 3:14
…..”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”And by Jesus own words, He says this in
John 17:5″ And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”He was there with our Heavenly Father before all was created by Him.
God brought Him forth it says.
It is so interesting that you and Gene want to make something else out of this. That it is only in God's Plan is so
unscripture. What you are quoting is not according to Scriptures.
Peace and Love IreneIrene……..> that is exactly what T8 meant and Kerwin has properly answered it. We could say the same thing Jesus said, “Father Glorify us with the Glory we had with you before the world was”. His point is Sound and true.
Irene you say “to say it is only in GOD Plan is so unscriptural”, so are you saying GOD never Had Planned the Creation process from the beginning to the end then, Is just accidentally happening. He did he did not plan the Jesus would come from the seed of the women and bruise the head of the serpent. What we are quoting is exactly in accordance of what scriptureis truly saying. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,15:00) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 22 2009,03:45) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,00:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,23:29) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Absolutly
OK, then why don't you go around saying it about yourself?I will tell you why.
Because it is pointless.
Jesus said it in response to the following words:
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
So if I said to you, “have you seen Abraham” I am pretty sure your answer would be just good old plain “no”.
You wouldn't bother to say “before Abraham was born, I am!”
If you deny the obvious meaning, then you are forced to render a meaning that is absolutely pointless and useless.
T8,I am and I exist.
You answered the question for me.I think therefore I am.
Before Abraham, I am.
Before Abraham, I exist.
T8,Before Abraham, I am.
Before Abraham, I exist.
Blasphemy on my part?
Nope.
I existed with 'Elohim before I was created, and yet I never preexisted. I have always been in 'Elohims conscience before I had my own conscience.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2009,15:32) T8 wrote: Quote Without bias it seems clear that he was with the Father before the world.
I read your response and wonder if you had stopped to consider the attributes of God who knows all things even that which has not yet occurred. God was aware of Jesus before the world began and he assigned Jesus to the role he would come to occupy at that time. That is why it is written “a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,” That is the glory Jesus had with God in the beginning.
Those who believe also have glory before they exist just as it is written.
Romans 9:21-24(KJV) reads:
Quote Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
We can also ask him to glorify us with the glory he has had prepared for us before we were conceived.
Well spoken!Quote (banana @ Nov. 21 2009,23:57) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2009,10:32) T8 wrote: Quote Without bias it seems clear that he was with the Father before the world.
I read your response and wonder if you had stopped to consider the attributes of God who knows all things even that which has not yet occurred. God was aware of Jesus before the world began and he assigned Jesus to the role he would come to occupy at that time. That is why it is written “a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,” That is the glory Jesus had with God in the beginning.
Those who believe also have glory before they exist just as it is written.
Romans 9:21-24(KJV) reads:
Quote Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
We can also ask him to glorify us with the glory he has had prepared for us before we were conceived.
But that is not what it means. t8 is right. That also goes along with all other Scriptures.
Col. 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
verse 16
For by Him all things are created, that are in heaven and that are in earth…..
verse 17
AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.
verse 18
this tells us that He also was the firstborn of the death. So that in all things He may have preeminence. He was first in all, firstborn of all and firstborn of the death.
Rev. 3:14
…..”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”And by Jesus own words, He says this in
John 17:5″ And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”He was there with our Heavenly Father before all was created by Him.
God brought Him forth it says.
It is so interesting that you and Gene want to make something else out of this. That it is only in God's Plan is so
unscripture. What you are quoting is not according to Scriptures.
Peace and Love Irene
You were created in the image of the Invisible 'Elohim.For him all things were created.
He is before all things he has preeminence.
He had to die so that we may have life without sacrifice.
'Elohim brought you forth as well.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 22 2009,09:30) Irene……..> that is exactly what T8 meant and Kerwin has properly answered it. We could say the same thing Jesus said, “Father Glorify us with the Glory we had with you before the world was”. His point is Sound and true. Irene you say “to say it is only in GOD Plan is so unscriptural”, so are you saying GOD never Had Planned the Creation process from the beginning to the end then, Is just accidentally happening. He did he did not plan the Jesus would come from the seed of the women and bruise the head of the serpent. What we are quoting is exactly in accordance of what scriptureis truly saying. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………gene
If Yeshua were G-d, why would he need to be born to put Satan under his feet?Now if Yeshua were man, that scripture relates beautifully!
Hi,
There are times when the Spirit of prophecy spoke directly through Jesus as in Jn2.
But when Jesus speaks TO his Father as in Jn17 then it is the vessel that speaks.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 23 2009,04:58) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 22 2009,09:30) Irene……..> that is exactly what T8 meant and Kerwin has properly answered it. We could say the same thing Jesus said, “Father Glorify us with the Glory we had with you before the world was”. His point is Sound and true. Irene you say “to say it is only in GOD Plan is so unscriptural”, so are you saying GOD never Had Planned the Creation process from the beginning to the end then, Is just accidentally happening. He did he did not plan the Jesus would come from the seed of the women and bruise the head of the serpent. What we are quoting is exactly in accordance of what scriptureis truly saying. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………gene
If Yeshua were G-d, why would he need to be born to put Satan under his feet?Now if Yeshua were man, that scripture relates beautifully!
CT………absolutely, simple logic should let a person understand that.peace ans love to you and yours brother…………….gene
Here is some scriptures to think about!! scripture teaches the Godhead existed before the world was created.
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God (Psalm 90:2).
In Proverbs we read.
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began (Proverbs 8:23).
John wrote.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).
Paul wrote.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).
Therefore the Bible gives both direct and indirect evidence of God creating the universe.
Creation Was Supernatural
The account of creation recorded in the Bible is a supernatural work of God. The Lord says:
I am the Lord,(NO CAPITAL) who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone (Isaiah 44:24).
The Word of the Lord accomplished Creation,
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap . . . For he spoke, and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast (Psalm 33:6,7,9).
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know (Job 38:4,5).
Creation Was Out Of Nothing
You are worthy, O Lord,(NO CAPITALS) to receive glory and honor and power; for you created all things, and by your will they exist and were created (Revelation 4:11).Scripture also teaches that each member of the Godhead existed before the world was created.
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God (Psalm 90:2).
In Proverbs we read.
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began (Proverbs 8:23).
John wrote.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).
Paul wrote.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).
Therefore the Bible gives both direct and indirect evidence of God creating the universe.
Creation Was Supernatural
The account of creation recorded in the Bible is a supernatural work of God. The Lord says:
I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone (Isaiah 44:24).
The Word of the Lord accomplished Creation,
By the word of the Lord ( NO CAPITALS)the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap . . . For he spoke, and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast (Psalm 33:6,7,9).
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know (Job 38:4,5).
In addition, the New Testament makes it clear that God created the universe by His spoken Word alone:
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible (Hebrews 11:3).
katjoHi Kat,
You do not seem to have found a trinity in scripture.None of the verses speak of three but rather two.
Is it really a binity you espouse-that was the first odd idea men had?
PS 'godhead' in the KJV does not mean trinity but has three meanings from 3 greek words
You really should get to know God and His Son.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 23 2009,04:30) Irene……..> that is exactly what T8 meant and Kerwin has properly answered it. We could say the same thing Jesus said, “Father Glorify us with the Glory we had with you before the world was”. His point is Sound and true. Irene you say “to say it is only in GOD Plan is so unscriptural”, so are you saying GOD never Had Planned the Creation process from the beginning to the end then, Is just accidentally happening. He did he did not plan the Jesus would come from the seed of the women and bruise the head of the serpent. What we are quoting is exactly in accordance of what scriptureis truly saying. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………gene
I am not saying that about creation. Why I am saying that is concerning to the Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus, which you and kerwin want to interpret to be in the plan of God, and that is not so. While you and kerwin interprete those Scriptures to say something that it does not say, I go by them. That is the difference. Yes, God has a plan, more then one, but to say that Jesus was just in the plan of God, is interpreting those Scriptures, while I go by the way they are written.
Just like you say that about John 1:1 it does not say it is God's intellect. John 1:1-14 goes along side all the other Scriptures about Jesus being with the Father before the world was.
It also says that God send His Son into the world, that through Him we might be saveth. Where did God send Him from. And intellect became flesh in verse 14?
Do yourself a favor and pray, pry, pray about It. That is what I did , when J.W. first told me about it. Not all those people have any truth, they do.
Just like even the Catholics they at least believe Christ is the Son of God, but little does that matter,
Peace and Love IreneQuote (banana @ Nov. 23 2009,17:41) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 23 2009,04:30) Irene……..> that is exactly what T8 meant and Kerwin has properly answered it. We could say the same thing Jesus said, “Father Glorify us with the Glory we had with you before the world was”. His point is Sound and true. Irene you say “to say it is only in GOD Plan is so unscriptural”, so are you saying GOD never Had Planned the Creation process from the beginning to the end then, Is just accidentally happening. He did he did not plan the Jesus would come from the seed of the women and bruise the head of the serpent. What we are quoting is exactly in accordance of what scriptureis truly saying. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………gene
I am not saying that about creation. Why I am saying that is concerning to the Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus, which you and kerwin want to interpret to be in the plan of God, and that is not so. While you and kerwin interprete those Scriptures to say something that it does not say, I go be them. That is the difference. Yes, God has a plan, more then one, but to say that Jesus was just in the plan of God, is interpreting those Scriptures, while I go by the way they are written.
Just like you say that about John 1:1 it does not say it is God's intellect. John 1:1-14 goes along side all the other Scriptures about Jesus being with the Father before the world was.
It also says that God send His Son into the world, that through Him we might be saveth. Where did God send Him from. And intellect became flesh in verse 14?
Do yourself a favor and pray, pry, pray about It. That is what I did , when J.W. first told me about it. Not all those people have any truth, they do.
Just like even the Catholics they at least believe Christ is the Son of God, but little does that matter,
Peace and Love Irene
Scripture states that the gospel was just a plan of God's until it was fulfilled in the birth, life, death, resurrection, and Jesus' becomming king of everything in heaven and on earth. Jesus does not claim he has always been king but instead stated that God made him King.2 Timothy 3;16 tells us God was manifest in the flesh!
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 24 2009,14:53) 2 Timothy 3;16 tells us God was manifest in the flesh!
And you believe that it was God the Father or His Son?
I will put up some other Scriptures and then it is you who should prove if I am right or wrong.
John 17:4and verse 5
john 3:16and 17
Rev.19:13 goes with John 1:1 and verse 14 became flesh.
the intellect became flesh, or the plan of God became flesh.
John5:37 “And the Father himself which has sent me, hath born witness of me. You have neither heard my voice at any
time, nor seen my shape.”From where did God send Jesus from?
John 3:16″For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….
verse 17 “For God send His Son into the world.
Again were did He send Him from.Genesis 1:26″And God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness……”
Who was it with the Father when He created the world?
Proverb 8:22-30
Some might think that it is wisdom being created. Did God not have Wisdom for all eternity? Wisdom is like patient, joy, happiness, love etc. God had wisdom for eternity.
The last verse, verse 30 really explains it.
And all the other Scriptures that I gave before like
Col.1:15-17
Col. 1:18 He was also the firstborn of the death so that in all He may have preeminence,
Rev.3:14
I have proven to myself after one J.H.W. came and told us about this and heeded. We all have to if not now then later. And if I am wrong, then I will have to heed. Sooner or later, my friend in Christ.
Peace to you and yours IreneQuote (banana @ Nov. 24 2009,02:20) Quote (katjo @ Nov. 24 2009,14:53) 2 Timothy 3;16 tells us God was manifest in the flesh!
And you believe that it was God the Father or His Son?
I will put up some other Scriptures and then it is you who should prove if I am right or wrong.
John 17:4and verse 5
john 3:16and 17
Rev.19:13 goes with John 1:1 and verse 14 became flesh.
the intellect became flesh, or the plan of God became flesh.
John5:37 “And the Father himself which has sent me, hath born witness of me. You have neither heard my voice at any
time, nor seen my shape.”From where did God send Jesus from?
John 3:16″For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….
verse 17 “For God send His Son into the world.
Again were did He send Him from.Genesis 1:26″And God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness……”
Who was it with the Father when He created the world?
Proverb 8:22-30
Some might think that it is wisdom being created. Did God not have Wisdom for all eternity? Wisdom is like patient, joy, happiness, love etc. God had wisdom for eternity.
The last verse, verse 30 really explains it.
And all the other Scriptures that I gave before like
Col.1:15-17
Col. 1:18 He was also the firstborn of the death so that in all He may have preeminence,
Rev.3:14
I have proven to myself after one J.H.W. came and told us about this and heeded. We all have to if not now then later. And if I am wrong, then I will have to heed. Sooner or later, my friend in Christ.
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,How many times have we answered each and every one of those verses, time and time again. And you keep parroting them as if they will change something. Do you have any new material to draw from. I know I have answered them in several differant post already. I have seen Gene answer them. I have even seen Kerwin answer many of them.
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