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Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,18:32) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
I explained the “I am” supposed delima in a previous post as well.
Can you please direct us to that post? Thank you.Seems like everyone is looking over the scripture, HE CREATED EVERYTHING- HE WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING!!! And scripture clearly tells us that!That is so wrong to say, He was just like us. He made him self be like us and took on the sin of the world, and returned to THE GLORY HE HEAD BEFORE! THats all scriptual!
katjoQuote (katjo @ Nov. 21 2009,04:57) Seems like everyone is looking over the scripture, HE CREATED EVERYTHING- HE WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING!!! And scripture clearly tells us that!That is so wrong to say, He was just like us. He made him self be like us and took on the sin of the world, and returned to THE GLORY HE HEAD BEFORE! THats all scriptual!
katjo
That seems strange as Jesus states his came after Abraham was born since Abraham rejoiced as seeing his day. We know Abraham did see it through his faith and was thus made glad.John 8:56(KJV) reads:
Quote “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
It would therefore appear you are misinterpreting some hard to understand scripture.
Paul makes the following statement about Jesus.
And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15).
It has been alleged that firstborn means that Jesus was the first creation of God. Does this mean that Jesus Christ was a created being?
The Word Can Mean A Number Of Different Things
The Greek word prototokos, which is translated as firstborn, can refer to different things. It could refer either to something or someone that is first in order of time, such as a firstborn child, or it could refer to someone who is preeminent in rank. Or it could refer to someone who was both firstborn and preeminent in rank. It all depends upon the context.David, The Youngest Son, Was Called The Firstborn
The psalmist gives a description of David as being the firstborn. The Lord said of him.I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth (Psalm 89:27).
In this example the term firstborn obviously speaks of preeminence in rank. David was preeminent among the kings of Israel. However he was not the oldest, or firstborn, in his family. David was in fact the youngest. Therefore in this context, the idea of firstborn among the kings has the idea of preeminence and does not have the idea of time.
It Has The Idea Of Preeminence In The Book Of Colossians
In the passage in Colossians the idea of Jesus as firstborn means that He is preeminent over creation not that He is a created being. This can be seen from the verses that follow.
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:16,17).
Jesus is clearly called the Creator of all things. Consequently He could not have been the first thing created.
Jesus Has Preeminence Over The Dead
Jesus is also called the firstborn from the dead.
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5).
Jesus was the first person in time to come back from the dead never to die again. In addition, He is preeminent over the dead and death itself. Jesus said that He has the keys, or the authority, to death and Hades.
I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades (Revelation 1:18).
Jesus Is The Firstborn Over All Creation
There is one final thing. Colossians 1:15 could be better translated in the following manner.
And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15).
This translation emphasizes that Jesus is preeminent “over” His creation. This is to be preferred to the translation of “the firstborn of all creation” which gives the impression that Jesus is a created being.
katjo wrote:
Quote Jesus is clearly called the Creator of all things. Consequently He could not have been the first thing created.
That is why those that obey all of Jesus' teaching are are new creature.
God did make Jesus King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Katjo……..You produce no scriptures saying he was (created) first before any thing was created, Because ther is none that say that , But there are plenty that say GOD Created every thin alone and that there is (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM. I have listed many but you say you agree with scripture and yet you disagree with the many I posted why is that, they are not (MY) word, but GODS words, you need to resolve this in your mind, Also if Jesus preexisted His berth show us where and what he was , show us what works in scripture he performed (without contradicting) other scriptures. Where does it say specifically Jesus PREEXISTED HIS BERTH. Again i say if you can not see Jesus (EXACTLY) LIKE WE ARE, you simply do (NOT) see the TRUE Jesus. He is OUR BROTHERWe are Joint heirs with him , we are not Joint Heirs with GOD, but with Jesus the Christ. GOD the FATHER is the ONE who gives US as well as JESUS our Inheritance. IMO
peace and lov eto you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 21 2009,10:47) Katjo……..You produce no scriptures saying he was (created) first before any thing was created, Because ther is none that say that , But there are plenty that say GOD Created every thin alone and that there is (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM. I have listed many but you say you agree with scripture and yet you disagree with the many I posted why is that, they are not (MY) word, but GODS words, you need to resolve this in your mind, Also if Jesus preexisted His berth show us where and what he was , show us what works in scripture he performed (without contradicting) other scriptures. Where does it say specifically Jesus PREEXISTED HIS BERTH. Again i say if you can not see Jesus (EXACTLY) LIKE WE ARE, you simply do (NOT) see the TRUE Jesus. He is OUR BROTHERWe are Joint heirs with him , we are not Joint Heirs with GOD, but with Jesus the Christ. GOD the FATHER is the ONE who gives US as well as JESUS our Inheritance. IMO peace and lov eto you and yours……………………gene
Hey Gene,
I saw what happened on the forum. I think you are free to post but have to calm down the garbage words ect.
still would appreciate your input.martian……. that site has a select audience and controls everything said , As they said they have there so_called “Christian” Tenets which is the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE, and immediately edited what i wrote because it was contrary to there “belief system” They are like joining a Church and say something against there “Tenets” that they have decide is right for everyone then they edit you posts, I personally am not going to waste my time with such nonsense. Maybe you can get you points across but i really doubt it. Your post are very good though. You will do better here < IMO
pece and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 21 2009,11:24) martian……. that site has a select audience and controls everything said , As they said they have there so_called “Christian” Tenets which is the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE, and immediately edited what i wrote because it was contrary to there “belief system” They are like joining a Church and say something against there “Tenets” that they have decide is right for everyone then they edit you posts, I personally am not going to waste my time with such nonsense. Maybe you can get you points across but i really doubt it. Your post are very good though. You will do better here < IMO pece and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Hi Gene,These verses scream of pre-existence; what’s your take on these…
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene @ Nov. 21 2009,11:24) martian……. that site has a select audience and controls everything said , As they said they have there so_called “Christian” Tenets which is the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE, and immediately edited what i wrote because it was contrary to there “belief system” They are like joining a Church and say something against there “Tenets” that they have decide is right for everyone then they edit you posts, I personally am not going to waste my time with such nonsense. Maybe you can get you points across but i really doubt it. Your post are very good though. You will do better here < IMO pece and love to you and yours………………………….gene
I thought I warned you about that site, You are way to intelligent and thoughtful to be persecuted there and believe me you will be and then you will be banned just like I was I was banned permanently and the funny thing is the same things I was banned for they haven't disallowed anyone else to do.What I have concluded about most forum sites is that it doesn't matter what you are talking about as long as you don't do it well enough to be influential.
There are people who believe all sorts of things on that site including several atheists, they only prevent those who have the capacity to be effective in presenting their viewpoint
I am not ignoring scripture. If you dont believe God came in the flesh, than you cant NO WAY understand scripture. They would keep contradicting each other. Jesus was there from the beginning. You know Col 1. says; HE CREATED ALL, IN HEAVEN, AND EARTH! BY HIM AND FOR HIM. HE IS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS READ IT! OLD TESTAMENT SAY; I AM HE, NEW TESTAMENT(jESUS) I AM HE. AND SO, SO MANY MORE. SO IS ONE A LIE OR YOU JUST LOOK OVERT THEM?
To all! Why is it so complicated, Jesus by His own words in
John 17:5 says this
“And now O Father glorify Me with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.
Rev. 3″14″ These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”
Col.1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 1:16 For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth……..
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.verse 18 tells us that He also is the firstborn of the death; So that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.
I really don't understand how you can just ignore these Scriptures, or even make something else out of it.
If Christ says so why is it you don't even believe Him.
John 1:1 also states that He was there in the beginning with God.
Christ had a beginning He did not always existed like some might want to believe.
Peace and Love IreneIrene wrote:
Quote To all! Why is it so complicated, Jesus by His own words in
John 17:5 says this
“And now O Father glorify Me with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.Interpreting scripture correctly is made difficult by preconceived biases. Those words do not back up your conclusion as Jesus is not explicitly stating he existed with God before the world was. If you use scripture to interpret scripture then this scripture seems more appropriate.
Titus 1:3(NIV) reads:
Quote Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,16:24) martian……. that site has a select audience and controls everything said , As they said they have there so_called “Christian” Tenets which is the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE, and immediately edited what i wrote because it was contrary to there “belief system” They are like joining a Church and say something against there “Tenets” that they have decide is right for everyone then they edit you posts, I personally am not going to waste my time with such nonsense. Maybe you can get you points across but i really doubt it. Your post are very good though. You will do better here < IMO pece and love to you and yours………………………….gene
I tried submitting a post to that site, and I kept it a generic post, and it didn't even show up.Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,16:24) martian……. that site has a select audience and controls everything said , As they said they have there so_called “Christian” Tenets which is the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE, and immediately edited what i wrote because it was contrary to there “belief system” They are like joining a Church and say something against there “Tenets” that they have decide is right for everyone then they edit you posts, I personally am not going to waste my time with such nonsense. Maybe you can get you points across but i really doubt it. Your post are very good though. You will do better here < IMO pece and love to you and yours………………………….gene
HeHe, those trinitarians slapped you hard, I didn't even get to read your post.Guess you made it to the top of there list in one post.
Well you tried. LOL
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2009,23:16) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,17:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Why do you assume Jesus is speaking of time?Could he have instead been speaking of the fact he is the Anointed One?
Look at the context. It is very much about 'time'.John 8:57-58
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Look up the meaning of “I am” and think about the context you use those same words.
I am = I exist. It is a common thing to say. There are other New Testament scriptures where it is mentioned. “I am” identifies.
e.g., I am Gabriel. (I exist as Gabriel.)Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,23:29) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Absolutly
OK, then why don't you go around saying it about yourself?I will tell you why.
Because it is pointless.
Jesus said it in response to the following words:
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
So if I said to you, “have you seen Abraham” I am pretty sure your answer would be just good old plain “no”.
You wouldn't bother to say “before Abraham was born, I am!”
If you deny the obvious meaning, then you are forced to render a meaning that is absolutely pointless and useless.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2009,16:22) Interpreting scripture correctly is made difficult by preconceived biases. Those words do not back up your conclusion as Jesus is not explicitly stating he existed with God before the world was. If you use scripture to interpret scripture then this scripture seems more appropriate.
On the contrary.Without bias it seems clear that he was with the Father before the world.
If I said to someone “respect this person with the honour he had before the creation of Israel”, then someone listening in would think that this person had existed in order to have that honour before the creation of the nation of Israel (1948). Besides being quite old, it would be a given that I existed in order to have this honour.
Read the words of Jesus again (without bias)
“And now O Father glorify Me with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.
T8………Tell us (ONE) good REASON GOD would take a preexisting (PERFECT) Being Kill HIM and rebirth him in Mary and then have him killed again. Let's be Honest that would prove (NOTHING) TO us, BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT BE (TRULY) LIKE US IN (EVERY) WAY. Jesus did (NOT) say before Abraham i was born, as you wrote, He said before Abraham I AM, and indeed he was (in the foreordained plan of GOD) in fact he was there before Adam and Eve Were. If he was alive as a being them Abraham would have literally saw Him, and not look forward to his day as Jesus said he did. You also say the Glory Jesus had was before His resurrection, but the truth is Jesus recieved the Glory GOD had Planned for Him, when he was raised from the dead and took his position beside the FATHER GOD.
T8 can't you see you destory all the work of Christ and GOD the Father by teaching that false teaching, the whole purpose for Jesus' life was to Show that GOD can Take an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING (EXACTLY) like we are, without (ANY) Exceptions and (Perfect) HIM and Bring Him to GLORY as a Son of HIS, this is our HOPE also, too attain to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ OUR BROTHER.
The Preexistence Doctrine destroys the true work of GOD , by altering it and removing it from our absolute identity, it is as Bad as the Trinity in fact it may even be a worse doctrine. Because it produces a foundation for Trinitarian LOGIC. Please take time in prayer and reconsider the teaching of Preexistence in light of all the damage it produces in our Identity with Jesus our brother. We can not remove Him From our own selves by making differences in Him and US, this destroys the work of GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2009,00:14) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2009,23:16) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,17:49) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.
Can you say this about yourself?“Before Abraham, I am”?
Can Abraham say it?
Why do you assume Jesus is speaking of time?Could he have instead been speaking of the fact he is the Anointed One?
Look at the context. It is very much about 'time'.John 8:57-58
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Look up the meaning of “I am” and think about the context you use those same words.
I am = I exist. It is a common thing to say. There are other New Testament scriptures where it is mentioned. “I am” identifies.
e.g., I am Gabriel. (I exist as Gabriel.)
T8,Why is it hard to conceive that you and I existed with 'Elohim before you and I existed together. There is no time with 'Elohim. He existed with those before us, he exists with us, and he exists with those yet to be born.
Rationalize this T8, Is it possible for 'Elohim to in the Garden of Eden and be in the New Jerusalem at this very moment?
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