Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene ……> I know full well it is a title……Jesus knew that also when He said in prayer, “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD. If we say we believe Jesus then we must believe that for us there is (ONLY) (ONE) TRUE GOD. I posted a hole bunch of scripture to you where GOD himself said the same thing about himself. Not only that but He (GOD) said “you shall have (NO) other God besides (ME)”. and He also said He (GOD) did (NOT) Know of (ANY OTHER) GOD besides HIM. The question is do we believe HIM or what false Trinitarians and Preexistences have taught. IMO

Love and peace to you and Georg…………………gene

[georg]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:29)

Irene ……> I know full well it is a title……Jesus knew that also when He said in prayer, “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD. If we say we believe Jesus then we must believe that for us there is (ONLY) (ONE) TRUE GOD.  I posted a hole bunch of scripture to you where GOD himself said the same thing about himself. Not only that but He (GOD) said “you shall have (NO) other God besides (ME)”. and He also said He (GOD) did (NOT) Know of (ANY OTHER) GOD besides HIM. The question is do we believe HIM or what false Trinitarians and Preexistences have taught.   IMO Love and peace to you and Georg…………………gene

Gene I don't think that the preexisting of Jesus has anything to do with the trinity doctrine. I believe the Scriptures and it says in
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
…”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”
And by Jesus own words He said this
John 17:5
“And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with you before the world was.”
I don't think that Jesus only was in the plan of God like you and others claim.
And these Scriptures prove it to me.
Is the Father greater then Jesus , yes. I never thought that He was not.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO

love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene

[kerwin]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 20 2009,07:10)

Quote (katjo @ Nov. 20 2009,11:57) Read my post on “Is Jesus God” about capital letters. We know who is coming at the end- and he is KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS. even in the Old Testament Isiah 25;8 He will swallow up death in victory , and the Lord God (no capitals) will wipe away tears from off our faces; (9)And it shall be said in that day lo,THIS IS OUR GOD; we have waited for him and he will save us; this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. I am not saying there is two, three Gods, there is ONE LORD GOD!! Who created, came in the flesh to pay for our sins, ascended back to heaven,to the glory He had before the world was and is coming again! katjo Who was running things in the universe when he was down here? Why did he say he was sent?

Good question. Another question “who was running the universe when God died?” The question sounds like blaspheme but that is what the Trinitarians claim happen.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2009,21:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 20 2009,07:10) Quote (katjo @ Nov. 20 2009,11:57) Read my post on “Is Jesus God” about capital letters. We know who is coming at the end- and he is KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS. even in the Old Testament Isiah 25;8 He will swallow up death in victory , and the Lord God (no capitals) will wipe away tears from off our faces; (9)And it shall be said in that day lo,THIS IS OUR GOD; we have waited for him and he will save us; this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. I am not saying there is two, three Gods, there is ONE LORD GOD!! Who created, came in the flesh to pay for our sins, ascended back to heaven,to the glory He had before the world was and is coming again! katjo Who was running things in the universe when he was down here? Why did he say he was sent? Good question.  Another question “who was running the universe when God died?”  The question sounds like blaspheme but that is what the Trinitarians claim happen.

Why did it another god to raise another god from the dead?

Kinda kicks omnipotance in the rear.

[georg]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58)

Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene

Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true.
First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?  
So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!!
Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all. First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death.
Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend.
Irene

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30)

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Preeminence does not make him G-d:

International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia:

Preeminence:

Pre-em’-i-nens: Superiority, especially in noble or excellent qualities. The word stands for: (1) mothar, “what is over and above,” “excellence”; “Man hath no preeminence above the beasts” (Ec 3:19); (2) proteuo, “to be first”; “That in all things he (= Christ) might have the preeminence” (Col 1:18); (3) ho philoproteuon, is translated “who loveth to have the preeminence,” literally “who loveth to be first” (of Diotrephes, 3 #Joh 1:9).

He was loved by G-d to be the first.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Strong's Number: g4409 Greek: proteuo

Preeminence (To Have The):

“to be first” (protos), “to be preeminent,” is used of Christ in relation to the Church, Col 1:18.

Strong's Number: g5383 Greek: philoproteuo

Preeminence (To Have The):

lit., “to love to be preeminent” (philos, “loving”), “to strive to be first,” is said of Diotrephes, 3Jo 1:9.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30)

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene

Yes Yeshua was born of 'Elohim, and when you are born (again) of 'Elohim you recieve a new name.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30)

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene

John 3:17 For 'Elohim sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of 'Elohim toward us, because that 'Elohim sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Neither on lays claim to diefication.

If 'Elohim gave you a calling and sent you into the world on a mission for him, does this make you 'Elohim? You do in fact stand in stead for him, but you are not 'Elohim.

'Elohim sent out a carpenters son to be a shepherd to a lost flock, to reconcile the world unto 'Elohim, and to be the once and for all sacrificial atonement for the lost sheep of the world.

[georg]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,20:47)

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene Yes Yeshua was born of 'Elohim, and when you are born (again) of 'Elohim you recieve a new name.

So do you then believe that Jesus was with God the Father before the world was, like it says in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
And in
Col. 1:15-18
Irene

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:56)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,20:47) Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene Yes Yeshua was born of 'Elohim, and when you are born (again) of 'Elohim you recieve a new name. So do you then believe that Jesus was with God the Father before the world was, like it says in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” And in Col. 1:15-18 Irene

Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.

[Constitutionalist]

Check out one of my previous post where I explained Colossians 1:15-18.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14)

Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end.

Can you say this about yourself?

“Before Abraham, I am”?

Can Abraham say it?

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,17:49)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end. Can you say this about yourself? “Before Abraham, I am”? Can Abraham say it?

Why do you assume Jesus is speaking of time?

Could he have instead been speaking of the fact he is the Anointed One?

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end. Can you say this about yourself? “Before Abraham, I am”? Can Abraham say it?

Absolutly

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 20 2009,03:49)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,22:14) Only in the fact that the glory of 'Elohim knew the son and what he was to do before the world was. Just like 'Elohim knew you before the world was and what your life is to be. He knew you before you were even in the womb, how great 'Elohim is to know the begining from the end. Can you say this about yourself? “Before Abraham, I am”? Can Abraham say it?

I explained the “I am” supposed delima in a previous post as well.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……..> Jesus was in the Foreknowledge of GOD from the foundations of the earth, and even was spoken of By GOD, (the (SEED) of the Woman, would bruise the head of the serpent remember. Notice it did (NOT) say the SEED of GOD would, i am talking before He recieved the Spirit at the Jordan river, Nor does it say a seed of GOD would come down and Bruise His Head , but the seed (offspring) of the Women would. Moses also said to the Israelites the LORD would raise up a Prophet Like (ME)  From among your (OWN) people, Notice (LIKE) ME, (MOSES), was Moses a GOD or a preexistent being of some kind. NO he came into being when he was born, so did Jesus and all of us to. GOD may have had foreknowledge of us all, But we came into this world all the same way and so did Jesus. Peter said clearly Jesus was Foreordained (preplanned),  (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) in our time. manifested means to come into being.  

T8…why do you want to separate Jesus from you own likeness, can't you see Jesus as one of US human beings why separate Him from yourself.  Why give him advantages he as a Human being did not Have. GOD was showing Man Kind His saving POWER , by taking and ordinary Human Being and perfecting HIM Scripture says He (LEARNED) OBEDIENCE by the things HE suffered, that in it self should show you he did not preexist as a perfect being or demigod or super being of some kind.  It would make (NO) sense for GOD to put on a false Show and tricking us to believe Jesus was (exactly) like us in every way when in fact He was NOT the Exact Same. GOD was proving to man what he cam do (IN) man , not some preexistent super being of some kind, that would prove nothing to us.

The false doctrine of the Preexistence of Jesus is Just as Bad as the Trinity ,if not worse, both destory our true relationship with our (BROTHER) Jesus the Christ. He is one of us in (EVERY WAY) without exception He was Just like Moses and anointed one of GOD, Except he was the (FIRSTBORN) FROM THE DEAD AND HAS PREEMINENCE IN ALL THINGS AS THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD BY GOD THE FATHER.  He was indeed foreordained and foreknow by GOD, but  he did no preexist his berth here on earth.

T8, here is something you can try, try to prove Jesus' preexistence from the old testament scripture, remember the Bereans searched them to see if what was said was true or not. If the new does not match the old then there is a flaw some where in what is being conveyed to us. WE are told in many scriptures GOD (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) CREATED everything in existence , so if there is discrepancy, who would the Bereans have believed, those saying Jesus created everything or those saying God the FATHER did by Himself and ALONE as Scripture say he did?  IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[georg]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,20:44)

Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Preeminence does not make him G-d: International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: Preeminence: Pre-em’-i-nens: Superiority, especially in noble or excellent qualities. The word stands for: (1) mothar, “what is over and above,” “excellence”; “Man hath no preeminence above the beasts” (Ec 3:19); (2) proteuo, “to be first”; “That in all things he (= Christ) might have the preeminence” (Col 1:18); (3) ho philoproteuon, is translated “who loveth to have the preeminence,” literally “who loveth to be first” (of Diotrephes, 3 #Joh 1:9). He was loved by G-d to be the first. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Strong's Number: g4409  Greek: proteuo Preeminence (To Have The): “to be first” (protos), “to be preeminent,” is used of Christ in relation to the Church, Col 1:18. Strong's Number: g5383  Greek: philoproteuo Preeminence (To Have The): lit., “to love to be preeminent” (philos, “loving”), “to strive to be first,” is said of Diotrephes, 3Jo 1:9.

Jesus never claimed to be God, however God Himself calls Him God in Hebrew 1:8
But to the Son He said:” Your Throne, O God is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
verse 9
You have loved righteousness and hated Lawlessness;
Therfore God Your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more then Your companions.
That too goes with John !:1 were John calles Him the Word and God.
He is begotten of God and since God is a title I have no problem.
I do know that the Father is above all, like I stated before.

Preeminence means to be first in all.  He was the firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.
Col. 1:15-18
It is used not only to the relationship to the Church.  He was first in all.  That is what you are not claiming, but I do.

Your quote on 1John 1:9 says this:”Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.  He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”
Tell me something what does this verse have to do with the preexisting of Christ?

Irene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 21 2009,03:04)

T8……..> Jesus was in the Foreknowledge of GOD from the foundations of the earth, and even was spoken of By GOD, (the (SEED) of the Woman, would bruise the head of the serpent remember. Notice it did (NOT) say the SEED of GOD would, i am talking before He recieved the Spirit at the Jordan river, Nor does it say a seed of GOD would come down and Bruise His Head , but the seed (offspring) of the Women would. Moses also said to the Israelites the LORD would raise up a Prophet Like (ME)  From among your (OWN) people, Notice (LIKE) ME, (MOSES), was Moses a GOD or a preexistent being of some kind. NO he came into being when he was born, so did Jesus and all of us to. GOD may have had foreknowledge of us all, But we came into this world all the same way and so did Jesus. Peter said clearly Jesus was Foreordained (preplanned),  (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) in our time. manifested means to come into being.   T8…why do you want to separate Jesus from you own likeness, can't you see Jesus as one of US human beings why separate Him from yourself.  Why give him advantages he as a Human being did not Have. GOD was showing Man Kind His saving POWER , by taking and ordinary Human Being and perfecting HIM Scripture says He (LEARNED) OBEDIENCE by the things HE suffered, that in it self should show you he did not preexist as a perfect being or demigod or super being of some kind.  It would make (NO) sense for GOD to put on a false Show and tricking us to believe Jesus was (exactly) like us in every way when in fact He was NOT the Exact Same. GOD was proving to man what he cam do (IN) man , not some preexistent super being of some kind, that would prove nothing to us. The false doctrine of the Preexistence of Jesus is Just as Bad as the Trinity ,if not worse,  both destory our true relationship with our (BROTHER) Jesus the Christ. He is one of us in (EVERY WAY) without exception He was Just like Moses and anointed one of GOD, Except he was the (FIRSTBORN) FROM THE DEAD AND HAS PREEMINENCE IN ALL THINGS AS THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD BY GOD THE FATHER.  He was indeed foreordained and foreknow by GOD, but  he did no preexist his berth here on earth. T8, here is something you can try, try to prove Jesus' preexistence from the old testament scripture, remember the Bereans searched them to see if what was said was true or not. If the new does not match the old then there is a flaw some where in what is being conveyed to us. WE are told in many scriptures GOD (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) CREATED everything in existence , so if there is discrepancy, who would the Bereans have believed, those saying Jesus created everything or those saying God the FATHER did by Himself and ALONE as Scripture say he did?  IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

Awesome Post Gene!

[bodhitharta]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 21 2009,04:37)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 20 2009,20:44) Quote (georg @ Nov. 20 2009,01:30) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 20 2009,15:58) Irene………..The Trinity and Preexistences are in the same BOAT, Both support each other. Trinitarians point to the idea that Jesus was a GOD and therefore created every thing and Had to preexist if He was the (CREATOR). This is Pure Blasphemer againt the truth. Give me (ONE) good reason for GOD to Kill and Son of His and cause Him to be reborn or recreated in the womb of Mary, That would Prove Nothing to humanity of what GOD can do for Us , and we can not say He was like us in every way, because that would be a lie he would not have been (exactly) like us in every way then would He. No GOD took an (ORDINARY) HUMAN BEING AND PERFECTED HIM TO DEMONSTRATE HIS PLAN AND WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY. Jesus was simply one of US Humans and nothing MORE and we can draw great courage and trust in GOD the FATHER by what He (GOD) did in HIM when we see Jesus exactly like we are.  Jesus was a work of GOD demonstrated for all HUMANITY. He is the same as we are in (EVERY) way, without exception. He is the (FIRSTBORN) OF (MANY) brethren , the FIRST to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD from MAN KIND, NOT REBORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD TWICE.  IMO love and peace to you and Georg………………………….gene Gene Calling Scripture Blaspheme is a hard thing to say, and not true. First of all Hebrew and John both tell us that Jesus is born of God.  When you are born, is your name the same then your Father is?   So is Jesus.  Knowing that God is a title, still you insist.  You just don't want to be wrong!!!! Also if you read on in Col. 1:8 it shows us that He also had preeminence, He was first in all.  First to be born of God and first to be resurrected from the death. Also God had to send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Him we might be saved.  No other could do the job.  Jesus never was one of us.  That too is a myth. Some people just don't want to learn.  I used to be just like you.  Thanks to God that He revealed truth to us.  Thats all, my friend. Irene Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Preeminence does not make him G-d: International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: Preeminence: Pre-em’-i-nens: Superiority, especially in noble or excellent qualities. The word stands for: (1) mothar, “what is over and above,” “excellence”; “Man hath no preeminence above the beasts” (Ec 3:19); (2) proteuo, “to be first”; “That in all things he (= Christ) might have the preeminence” (Col 1:18); (3) ho philoproteuon, is translated “who loveth to have the preeminence,” literally “who loveth to be first” (of Diotrephes, 3 #Joh 1:9). He was loved by G-d to be the first. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Strong's Number: g4409  Greek: proteuo Preeminence (To Have The): “to be first” (protos), “to be preeminent,” is used of Christ in relation to the Church, Col 1:18. Strong's Number: g5383  Greek: philoproteuo Preeminence (To Have The): lit., “to love to be preeminent” (philos, “loving”), “to strive to be first,” is said of Diotrephes, 3Jo 1:9. Jesus never claimed to be God, however God Himself calls Him God in Hebrew 1:8 But to the Son He said:” Your Throne, O God is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. verse 9 You have loved righteousness and hated Lawlessness; Therfore God Your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness more then Your companions. That too goes with John !:1 were John calles Him the Word and God. He is begotten of God and since God is a title I have no problem. I do know that the Father is above all, like I stated before. Preeminence means to be first in all.  He was the firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. Col. 1:15-18 It is used not only to the relationship to the Church.  He was first in all.  That is what you are not claiming, but I do. Your quote on 1John 1:9 says this:”Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.  He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.” Tell me something what does this verse have to do with the preexisting of Christ? Irene

Irene,

hebrews 1:8 is a misquote and corruption of scripture because God did not say what was said

Psalm 45
1My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

3Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

4And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Paul said that God said this but God didn't say it at all.

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