Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

worshiping jesus ,,.> you are saying what i meant by quoting Jesus saying he could do nothing by himself was infering him to be totally powerless. Jesus was speaking to the fact that he could not do God's work by himself, every mericle, every word of life was given by the one and only God. Jesus' power was exactly the same as yours and mine,no more ,no less.It was God giving him the words to speak and it was God performing every mericle performed through Christ Jesus, not Jesus doing them thats why Jesus said he could do nothing by his self.
Moses for that matter could do nothing by his self either it was God who did those mericles not Moses.

and just as those words and mericles did not make Moses a God neither did it Jesus either.

you are Just bent on making another God out of Jesus no matter how much truth you are shown.

you have failed to answer any of the direct questions put to you.

let me just give you one question to answer, it's simple and straight forward. here it is,

what did Jesus mean when he said,”THOU ART THE (ONLY)TRUE GOD”

PLEASE DON'T SKERT AROUND, just a strate forward answer that all, try, thanks, GENE

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2007,09:41)

worshiping jesus ,,.> you are saying what i meant by quoting Jesus saying he could do nothing by himself was infering him to be totally powerless. Jesus was speaking to the fact that he could not do God's work by himself, every mericle, every word of life was given by the one and only God. Jesus' power was exactly the same as yours and mine,no more ,no less.It was God giving him the words to speak and it was God performing every mericle performed through Christ Jesus, not Jesus doing them thats why Jesus said he could do nothing by his self. Moses for that matter could do nothing by his self either it was God who did those mericles not Moses. and just as those words and mericles did not make Moses a God neither did it Jesus either. you are Just bent on making another God out of Jesus no matter how much truth you are shown. you have failed to answer any of the direct questions put to you. let me just give you one question to answer, it's simple and straight forward.  here it is, what did Jesus mean when he said,”THOU ART THE (ONLY)TRUE GOD” PLEASE DON'T SKERT AROUND, just a strate forward answer that all, try, thanks, GENE

GB

So tell me, when God works through you do you say…

“What ever I see the Father do, I do”?

No you are skirting around the scriptures my friend!

Jesus came from heaven as the Word/God that was with the Father to do the Fathers will.

Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Imagine that, the scriptures were written about Jesus!

The scriptures is a biography of God and yet Jesus takes claim to them!

“They are they that testify of me”.

Jesus is clearly making statements declaring his deity with the Father!

You say…

Quote

you have failed to answer any of the direct questions put to you. let me just give you one question to answer, it's simple and straight forward.  here it is, what did Jesus mean when he said,”THOU ART THE (ONLY)TRUE GOD” PLEASE DON'T SKERT AROUND, just a strate forward answer that all, try, thanks, GENE

GB

He means what he says “The Only True God”.

Somehow you and others think this disproves the trinity!

Jesus also says in the passage that to know the “True God” (which he acknowledges as his Father) and Jesus Christ is “Eternal life”.

Wow. Why did Jesus have to slip his name in the verse.

Jesus said if yoiu have seen me you have seen God!

Huh? Can you say that?  Imagine the thoughts that would have went through the strict Monotheistic Jews minds.

Jesus is saying to know the Father and Himself is “Eternal life”.

They Knew by their scriptures that God is One. There is no other beside him! In fact Hebrew scriptures say there is none like him! Yet Jesus has the nerve to put his name next to the “True God” as a prerequisite to knowing God and having “Eternal life”.

Who was this “Eternal Life” 1 Jn 1:1,2. He was the Word that was with God and was God!

Remember John penned these words as a personal follower and witness of Jesus.

Yet John after writting Jn 17:3 a few chapters later recorded
Thomas saying to Jesus “My Lord and MY God”. Did Thomas or Jesus or John forget something? This statement would have been blasphemous. Yet Jesus blesses him and says because you have “Seen Me”.

There was no rebuke for Thomas statement neither by John nor Jesus!

So tell me how Jn 17:3 says Jesus is not God?

John also wrote these words…

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Quite an amazing statement for a strict Monotheist wouldnt you say to put Jesus right there next to the Father as the “Only True God”?

So you think that because Jesus acknowledges the Father as God that he could not be God?

So now maybe you could answer my question…

What is your interpretation of John 1:1 and John 20:28?

Here is something that might help!

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

And while you are at it please explain why the Father calls Jesus “God” 'Theos” in Hebrews 1:8.

Wouldnt you say the Father thinks Jesus is “True God” also?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,09:26)

Hi W, You ask “Is there anyone else in scripture called the “Son of man”?” Yes. Ezekiel for one. Ez 2 ” 1And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. 2And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. “

NH

Nice try!

But the Hebrew term “Son of man” simply meant “Son of Adam”.

The New Testament term “Son of man” is a generic term to include all of mankind!

There is no other Son of man found in NT scriptures with this bearing.

Jesus is the second Adam the Lord from heaven!

He is truly the “Son of man” because he is the “Source of all of creation”!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Son of Man ALWAYS means Son of Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,11:06)

Hi W, Son of Man ALWAYS means Son of Adam

NH

If Jesus was a “son of Adam”, then how could he be the “Second Adam”. Why the virgin birth?

If Jesus was of Adam then he was born in sin like us!

You should study Romans about this second Adam who knew no sin neither was there any guile found in him!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
He needed to be fully like us.
Adam was a human son of God. [Lk 3.38]
Christ is the second human son of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,11:44)

Hi W, He needed to be fully like us. Adam was a human son of God. [Lk 3.38] Christ is the second human son of God.

NH

Where does the scripture say he had to fully like us?

Fully like us would mean that he was concieved in sin like we were!

He was in the “Likeness of sinful flesh” but not sinfull flesh.

Jesus is/was the “Spotless Lamb”, his flesh was perfect like Adams before Adam sinned!

You quote Lk 3:38, but Jesus wasnt a “son of Joseph” was he?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
No.
Was was a son of David according to scripture.
Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. [Rom8.3]
Catholics say Mary was perfect to bypass the problem of sinful flesh but you would not agree?
Christ is truly a son of Mary according to the flesh having been conceived in her.

[GeneBalthrop]

worshiping jesus . > my how you dance around a subject, tell me what the simple word (ONLY) means, don't know what that means or are unwilling to express it, then you are denying the very person you say you are worshiping.

and lets talk about the scripture you quoted , Heb 10:7 low it is written in the volume of the books i come to do THY will O God.

question, who's will was he doing was it his own or God's. it obvisouly was not his will. But the scriptures say God does all things after the council of his own will, but here it say's he came to do (thy) someone elses will not his O GOD.

did not Jesus say the son of man came not to do his will but the will of the one who sent him.

and again when he was agonizing over his impending death say “never the less not my will but (THY WILL) be done.
so please tell me how could they be the same being as your trinitarian idology states.

you quote scripture but you just don't know what their simple meanings are. You need to answer these simple questions, or can you without going to all kinds of others
it just your tatic to avoid the simple truth. Gene.

[GeneBalthrop]

WORSHIPING JESUS.> your analogy of son of God and sin of man.

this is my take on that, all of us are sons,or daughters, of man.

and all who have God's holy spirit in them are sons of God also.

didn't John plainly say (NOW) we are sons of God. and didn't Jesus say we could do even more the he did because he was going to heaven.

why cant you get it, it was God that was in Jesus doing the work and giving him the words to speak just like he said.

yes God in a man, a man just like you and me, and doesn't it say “for He (GOD) works in us to do his will and pleasure.
so if God were working in you to do his will would that be you working, NO, it would be God's work not yours so who gets the credit you are God. Jesus never stole Glory from God saying I have glorified (YOU) on the earth not himself.

Yes Jesus was son of God and Son of man, just like we are.

[kenrch]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,09:20)

Quote (kenrch @ July 06 2007,04:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,04:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2007,02:34) acertainchap,,> the biggest lie ever told people seeking God The Father is that Jesus is God Himself. This idology came about by fallen or apostasised Christanity, it creates the Man of Sin spoken of by the apostle Paul. this whole idology of turnning Jesus a man like you and me into a God Man and saying he is a God who sits in the temple of God  as God, creates the man of sin,and they (trenitarians) are the ones who created this idology, creating another God is idolatry. Jesus himself will destory this LIE at his return, just as it say's in 2 thes,2 , with the breath of his mouth i.e, his words. Jesus being a true God is the BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD. the blessing of God is on all who can see this. your friend ….Gene. Decepto-Meter The Decepto-Meter is turned way up. GB You can shout from the housetops all you like that Jesus is not God. However, Jesus is God and the biggiest lie that satan has created is that he is just a mere man like you and I. Jesus is the Word/God the Lord from heaven who has come in the flesh. Whoever denys that the Word/God has come in the flesh is of the spirit of anti-christ. You see GB you can boldy say that Jesus is not God but you will find yourself in opposition to scriptures that says he is. Quote However, Jesus is God and the biggiest lie that satan has created is that he is just a mere man like you and I. If the Son of man was not like you and I then His sacrifice is void.  Jesus was the SON OF MAN that's what He said. The biggest lie is that Jesus the Son of Man was supernatural and only He could do the Father's work but that's what the harlet teaches, isn't it.  How are we to do the father's work if we are not as Jesus.  Sons of men but children of God JUST AS JESUS WAS IHN&L, Ken K Is there anyone else in scripture called the “Son of man”? What does that mean to you? Besides that he was just a man. You yourself have admitted with your own lips that “Jesus is God”. How many Gods do you have K? Do you call a mere man you Lord and Master? Does Jesus “By his Spirit” ever speak to you? Jesus said… Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You boast about keeping the law and commandments. Do you not know that God is a Jeolous God and there is none beside him! The Shema… Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: You should check and see who this one Lord is. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311 Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Yet we see Jesus being served and worshipped all the time and he even commands men to obey him. Jesus said… Jn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. This is a powerfull statement for a mere man to make to Monotheistic Jews that knew they were only to serve and obey God only! Jesus said… Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Wait a minute, did he say “you did it not unto me”? Shouldnt he have said “God” or the “Father”? There is no other Saviour, Master and Lord but God. And yes that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Grow up k, and stop crying “harlot” harlot” “harlot”, everytime something dosnt agree with you. The harlot church that you call it, believes that Jesus was born of a virgin and died and rose again, so do you dont you? So I guess you are following the harlots doctrine?

WJ I said that the Father anointed Jesus God of His kingdom.

And said that Jesus will turn His kingdom over to the Father. Why what does the harlet say?

But most people who have their own eyes to see knew what I ment. Gee I gave scripture.

All flesh are sons of men. I really don't see the point of going on with your confusion. Jesus is the Holy Spirit , the Holy Spirit is a person yet you say God is three plus a Spirit. Then when asked to explain you become obnoxious.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Is your gospel “simple”?!

Or is this your goal to keep the confusion going?

IHN&L,

Ken

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:59)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:23) What does it mean “The Son of Man” and “The Son of God”? “Son of Man” = Man. “Son of God” = Man. HMMM. Do they mean the same? Butting in here……hope you don't mind? Do they mean the same thing?  In my opinion, no, they do not mean the same thing. God + Man = Divine Man Using the above equation the following would be true: Son of Man = Divine Man Son of God = Divine Man *We can also partake of the divine nature* *We will be adopted into this biological family* *We follow Jesus who is God's true Son* OK, off to enjoy the day!  It's gorgeous out there….. not3 There is only “One Divine Being”!

Where is it written?

There is only one God, you mean.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:53)

Since you quoted the scripture Jn 17:3, that would have been a bombshell to a Montheistic Jew for Jesus to put his name there with God the Father as the “Only true God” and that they were to not just believe in the Father but in him to be saved, then maybe you can explain in light of this how suddenly God who was their only Saviour according to the Hebrew scriptures would send another to be their Savior?

In John 17:3 you are forgetting a little word that appears between “….the one true God…” here it is, “AND…”.

Jews knew only one God – the Father. When they heard John 17:3 they heard it like I hear it. There is only one true God, AND there is only one Lord who is Jesus Christ.

This is a passage of scripture that Trinitarians must contort to fit their theology.

Believe the scriptures without changing what they mean and the truth is sure to jump out at you.

God AND Jesus.
The beginning of each letter of Paul's also brings this dynamic duo to light.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:53)

While it is true this scripture is ambiguous so is John 17:3.

“ambiguous” – having more than one interpretation.

You hit the nail on the head, WJ.

ALL scripture is ambiguous.

So what are we left with? This is a conversation I was having with David earlier……we are left to our interpretations. For we cannot even agree that the Father is the only true God.

Regarding John 17:3 – Jesus was praying to the Father, right? He directed his prayer saying, “….that they might know you, Father, the only true God….” In what way is this ambiguous to you? The fact that Jesus is mentioned in the same sentence? The Holy Spirit wasn't mentioned here. Is eternal life only based on knowing the 1st person and the 2nd person of God?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,07:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,06:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:23) What does it mean “The Son of Man” and “The Son of God”? “Son of Man” = Man. “Son of God” = Man. HMMM. Do they mean the same? Butting in here……hope you don't mind? Do they mean the same thing?  In my opinion, no, they do not mean the same thing. God + Man = Divine Man Using the above equation the following would be true: Son of Man = Divine Man Son of God = Divine Man *We can also partake of the divine nature* *We will be adopted into this biological family* *We follow Jesus who is God's true Son* OK, off to enjoy the day!  It's gorgeous out there….. not3 There is only “One Divine Being”! Not3 Could you explain? You say… Quote Do they mean the same thing?  In my opinion, no, they do not mean the same thing. But then you say… Quote Son of Man = Divine Man Son of God = Divine Man Also could you give me scriptures that support your formula?

What I meant was that either way – Jesus is a divine man.

Scriptures? Well, yes, you can find his extra-ordinary conception in the gospels (Luke). Jesus' Father is God – do you think that God would produce a mere man?

And Nick – I am exploring your idea. However, I'll ask you the same question – if God's spirit son was transported to earth via Mary……how can he be a mere man?

[Not3in1]

We can follow Jesus because we also can partake of the divine nature.

We can follow Jesus because the Father has qualified us to be son's of God because of his sacrifice.

We can follow Jesus because he has emptied himself of his privileges (thus living like us – he showed us how to live).

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:00)

We can follow Jesus because we also can partake of the divine nature. We can follow Jesus because the Father has qualified us to be son's of God because of his sacrifice. We can follow Jesus because he has emptied himself of his privileges (thus living like us – he showed us how to live).

Pretty simple huh Sis.!

If Jesus were anything else but the Son of man filled with the Holy Spirit as HE said then His sacrifice would be void.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:53)

Since you quoted the scripture Jn 17:3, that would have been a bombshell to a Montheistic Jew for Jesus to put his name there with God the Father as the “Only true God” and that they were to not just believe in the Father but in him to be saved, then maybe you can explain in light of this how suddenly God who was their only Saviour according to the Hebrew scriptures would send another to be their Savior? Just simply saying he is not God does not invalidate scriptures that say he is. John 17:3 does not say Jesus is not God, in fact for Jesus to make this claim that to know God and Jesus is eternal life is a smack in the face for the Monotheistic Jew and the Hebrew scriptures that says there is “No Other” if Jesus was not God one with the Father.

OK, had to pick a point where I would jump in the fray, so this is it! I still love ya WJ, I believe you want to know the truth as well or you would not be so involved. Anywho…

I have noted one thing that is very inherent in those who defend the Trinity doctrine, and I must admit that it bothers me. I often see this attitude of “show me where he said he wasn't God” or something similar. Rather than work off of speculation over what was not said, lets work in the realm of what IS said. As I stated before, there are many things I have not denied being but it is merely because I have never been accused! I'm not one to run around and say “I am not Batman”, “I am not Casper the friendly Ghost”, “I am not Hitler”, etc.. Since I do not deny these without prior prompting, will you then assume I am those personages?

John 17:3 says “You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” What further proof do you need then, DNA testing? I don't know about you, but I'm not in the habit of sending myself anywhere. Sounds like some type of mental instability.

Quote

You see there is scripture that also shows Jesus is the “True God” also. 1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life While it is true this scripture is ambiguous so is John 17:3.

Ambiguous to someone who can't shed himself of the Trinity filter. John 17:3 can't be much more straightforward. Now 1 John 5:20 is slightly ambiguous, I'll grant you that one. But it is really only ambiguous if you discount the word “this”. Since when has God been referred to as “this”? Let's check out the NIV version:

1 John 5:20 – We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Who is the true God? “He” is. Who is “He”? Look at the verse: “him”, “him”, “his Son”, and finally “He”. The kicker is the possessive pronoun “his”. “His son”. Whose son? The Father's. So there you have it: the Father is the true God.

Next.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 06 2007,15:00)

We can follow Jesus because we also can partake of the divine nature. We can follow Jesus because the Father has qualified us to be son's of God because of his sacrifice. We can follow Jesus because he has emptied himself of his privileges (thus living like us – he showed us how to live).

Hi not3,
Was Christ conceived a “divine man” or did he become a “divine man” when he was anointed?
We cannot follow divine men but we can partake of the divine nature of the Spirit of God.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2007,06:59)

There is only “One Divine Being”!

What gives you that idea? Perhaps we should check out some definitions of “divine”:

• emanating from God; “divine judgment”; “divine guidance”;
• providential: resulting from divine providence; “providential care”; “a providential visitation”
• being or having the nature of a god; “the custom of killing the divine king upon any serious failure of his…powers”-J.G.Frazier; “the divine will”; “the divine capacity for love”;

[Author]

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