- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,18:37) Hi CON,
Take care you do not put coals on your head.
If you have been given knowledge does it glorify you?
1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, as the oracles of 'Elohim; if any man minister, as of the ability which 'Elohim giveth: that 'Elohim in all things may be glorified through Yeshua HaMoshiac, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amein.The Father receives the glory.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,18:42) Hi CON,
Isaac and Jacob are alive to God.
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Isaac and Jacob are alive to God.They are dead awaiting the resurrection!
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Correct! He is the 'Elohim of the resurrection!
THE PROLOGUE TO JOHN'S GOSPEL
We now come to the passage above all which Trinitarians claim teaches the pre-existence of Yeshua from eternity and supports unquestionably the concept of the incarnation: “In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with 'Elohim,
and the Word was 'Elohim.
He was in the beginning with 'Elohim;
all things were made through him,
and without him was not anything made that was made.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth;
We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father” (John 1.1-3,14).From this passage Trinitarians deduce the following about Jesus:
1. The Word was Yeshua in person
2. He personally existed from the beginning.
3. He was 'Elohim, i.e. the second person of the Trinity.
4. He was the creator of all things, confirming that he was
'Elohim existing from the beginning.
5. He came down to earth to be clothed in human flesh.
It is important to bear at least two points in mind as this passage is considered.
First, it needs to be viewed from the standpoint of the first century Christian, untrammelled as he was with all the later arguments and discussions that were based upon these verses.
By the fourth century, after seemingly interminable conferences and thousands of closely reasoned manuscripts, a whole edifice of doctrine had been built upon these few words.
But what would first century people make of them?
Secondly, John must not be interpreted in such a way as to disagree with or contradict the rest of the New Testament writers.
There are some who maintain that whilst the earliest Christian writers had no place for the pre-existence of the Messiah or the incarnation, these ideas were even then being formulated in the early church and toward the end of the first century were expressed by John.
To this view the present writers cannot subscribe.
The Christian message was “once for all (time) delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and any subsequent variations were examples of the false doctrine that the apostles predicted would develop in their midst.
Development in Christian belief certainly did occur towards the end of the first century and during the two centuries that followed, but this was at the expense of the purity of the original message and was roundly condemned and combated by the apostles and their immediate successors.
In the writings of the New Testament the apostles speak with an original single voice.
If, as we believe, and the church today claims to believe, all the New Testament writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit, to guide them into “all truth” (John 16:13), then the message must be unanimous.
One inspired writer cannot be interpreted so as to contradict another.
Thus in view of the absence of proof of the doctrine of the trinity in the rest of the New Testament John's introduction needs to be examined very closely before accepting that it is a departure from the then universally held belief in the unity of 'Elohim and the subordination of His Son.
Hi CON,
No argument.
You may be right about some things.
I will give your positive offerings some consideration.Nick………If Jesus is the (FIRSTBORN) FROM THE GRAVE, then Moses and the rest could not have actually been on the mountain of transfiguration, It was a (vision) they were seeing, as John also saw visions of the throne of GOD. Because they would have preexisted Jesus' resurrection, but scripture says Jesus was (first) to rise from the dead and recieve eternal life. Scripture also says David is both dead and Buried his grave remained unto that day and went on to say David is (NOT) risen, You belief in a resurrection from the dead before Jesus is in error, or Jesus would not be the Firstborn from the DEAD would he? Why does the scripture say the dead Know not nothing, in the day they die their thoughts parish. If their thoughts (PARISH) then how could they continue to think or speak?
gene
'LOGOS' IN FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN THOUGHT
It is fortunate for our understanding of this word that we have the writings of Philo, a Jew who was contemporary with the early Christians.
We learn from him that the logos, and especially the divine logos, was the subject of much discussion throughout the non-Christian world of the first century.
He refers extensively to it in his writings and so we can gain the sense in which it was used in apostolic times.
In one passage Philo writes:
“… 'logos' has two aspects, one resembling a spring, the other its outflow; 'logos' in the understanding resembles a spring, and is called 'reason', while utterance by mouth and tongue is like its outflow, and is called 'speech' (Migr. 70-85).
But, as this analogy suggests, the two meanings can merge into each other and the distinction between thought and speech can become blurred.
Thus a comprehensive definition of logos is thought coming to expression in speech.
Philo also shows that the idea of the logos was developed further to include not only expression of thoughts by speech but by action as well.
He expresses the idea that all created things were originally in the mind of 'Elohim only, and this logos or plan was then put into effect by His creative acts.
Because man (unaided by revelation) can see 'Elohim only in a limited sense by viewing creation, the logos makes up the deficiency by describing what man can know of 'Elohim.
He uses another analogy from nature:
“.. to use Philo's favourite sun and light symbolism, the Logos is to 'Elohim as the corona is to the sun, the sun's halo which man can look upon when he cannot look directly on the sun itself. That is not to say that the logos is 'Elohim as such, any more than the corona is the sun as such, but the Logos is that alone which may be seen of 'Elohim”.
The same writer goes on to summarise Philo's understanding (and therefore probably the first century Jewish understanding) of the Logos:
“'Elohim is unknowable by man, except in a small degree by the creation, but the Logos expresses 'Elohim's ideas to man. There is no idea of personality attached to the Logos.” “The Logos seems to be nothing more for Philo than 'Elohim himself in his approach to man, 'Elohim himself insofar as he may be known by man”.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 15 2009,19:27) Nick………If Jesus is the (FIRSTBORN) FROM THE GRAVE, then Moses and the rest could not have actually been on the mountain of transfiguration, It was a (vision) they were seeing, as John also saw visions of the throne of GOD. Because they would have preexisted Jesus' resurrection, but scripture says Jesus was (first) to rise from the dead and recieve eternal life. Scripture also says David is both dead and Buried his grave remained unto that day and went on to say David is (NOT) risen, You belief in a resurrection from the dead before Jesus is in error, or Jesus would not be the Firstborn from the DEAD would he? Why does the scripture say the dead Know not nothing, in the day they die their thoughts parish. If their thoughts (PARISH) then how could they continue to think or speak? gene
I totally agree.'LOGOS' AND THE OLD TESTAMENT
Philo was a Jew with an inevitably strict adherence to the monotheism of 'Elohim and a devout belief in the Jewish scriptures, our Old Testament.
It is far from surprising therefore that his views on the Logos, together with those of his Jewish contemporaries, are clearly based on that authority.
There the Word of 'Elohim is continually used to describe the inspired prophetic utterances by which 'Elohim's thoughts were conveyed to His people.
“The word of the Lord came unto me” is the almost standard introduction to the prophets' messages.
The Word of 'Elohim is also frequently equated not only with 'Elohim's thoughts and speech, but also with the acts that follow from them.
So we find that His creative acts, His control of creation, His purpose in creation, and His declaration of that purpose to man are all attributed to the Word.
It is significant that in many of these instances when the Hebrew was translated into Greek Logos was used as the equivalent to word.
Thus it was the Word or Logos, the plan of 'Elohim in action, that was instrumental in creation:
“By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth”. “For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.” (Psalm 33:6,9).
The same Word controls the elements:
“He sends forth his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. He casts forth his ice like morsels; who can stand before his cold? He sends forth his word and melts them; he makes his wind to blow, and the waters flow” (Psalm 147:15,17-18).
Isaiah expresses the relationship between the Word of 'Elohim and His plan for the earth:
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Isaiah 55:10-11).
The Word, then, is the thoughts and purpose of 'Elohim in action, either by direct revelation through His prophets or in creating and maintaining the earth to achieve that purpose.
Although at first sight it might be thought that the references above give the idea of a separate existence for the Word, closer examination shows that personality is in no way suggested; it is only an idiom of speech that speaks of the Word being sent or doing something.
Hi CON,
Peter and John both felt blessed by what they SAW on the mountain.
Jesus was there and spoke with othersTHE SPIRIT OF GOD AND THE WISDOM OF 'ELOHIM
Alongside the use of Word in the Old Testament to describe 'Elohim's activity in creation or revelation are two other equivalent words: Spirit and Wisdom.
These too are described as being the agents of creation. The Spirit is another term for the power of 'Elohim, the 'power of the Most High' as it is called in Luke 1:35.
In the Genesis record of the creation it was “the Spirit of 'Elohim” that moved over the face of the waters, and then 'Elohim's Word brought things into being:
“Darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of 'Elohim was moving over the face of the waters. And 'Elohim said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light” (Genesis 1:2-3).
This equivalence of Word and Spirit is seen in many instances.
Whilst the psalmist could say “by the word of the Lord the heavens were made” (33:6), another psalm says “When thou sendest forth thy Spirit they are created; and thou renewest the face of the ground” (104:30).
So the Spirit of 'Elohim and the Word of 'Elohim are often alternative terms.
The same can be said of the Wisdom of 'Elohim.
It was also termed the instrument of creation: “The Lord by wisdom founded the earth” (Proverbs 3:19).
And this same Wisdom (or Spirit or Word) is personified in Proverbs and shown to be 'Elohim's agent of creation.
In Greek and Hebrew the words for wisdom are feminine, and so in personification is represented as a woman (on the other hand logos is masculine, hence the NT pronoun 'he'):
“Does not wisdom call, does not understanding raise her voice? … I, wisdom, dwell in prudence …
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. …
When he established the heavens, I was there .. when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world, and delighting in the sons of men” (Proverbs 8:1,12,22).The language here is clearly personification, a figure of speech in which an abstract idea is given the attributes of a person.
None would suggest that there was a female deity called Wisdom who was formed by 'Elohim in the beginning and who then created the world.
It is important not to confuse personification with personalisation.
Barclay, one of the most respected Greek scholars of our generation, sums up the first century relationship of logos, Word and Spirit in Jewish thought that formed the background to John's use of logos in his gospel:
“First, 'Elohim's Word is not only speech; it is power.
Second, it is impossible to separate the ideas of Word and Wisdom; and it was 'Elohim's Wisdom which created and permeated the world which 'Elohim made”.
To sum up so far.
We have seen that the Word of 'Elohim or Logos is a term used in scripture and by Jewish writers living in the first century to describe the thoughts and plan of 'Elohim being put into action.
It was applied to the original acts of creation and also to the redemptive purpose God has with the earth.
The Logos through the ministry of the prophets supplied the essential understanding of 'Elohim that was not available simply from perusal of his creative acts.
The term is used alternatively with Spirit and Wisdom, and in no case is there a suggestion that any of these had a separate personality, i.e. were an actual person.
This is the essential setting of the prologue of John's gospel record.
Any interpretation of the prologue must be incorrect if it fails to acknowledge this background and attempts to impose on John's words a meaning that his original readers probably would not have readily understood.
To divorce the prologue from its Old Testament roots, let alone its New Testament contemporaries, is to set off on the wrong path to its understanding.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:35) Hi CON,
Peter and John both felt blessed by what they SAW on the mountain.
Jesus was there and spoke with others
I would feel blessed as well, to have a “Vision” of the future, especially a glorified state.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:25) G,
They were yet unborn, just woken, like Samuel?
Could you explain that statement?THE 'WORD' OF JOHN'S PROLOGUE
It is into this background of Old Testament teaching on the Word of 'Elohim, and the first century Jewish understanding of it based on those sacred writings, that the prologue to John's gospel fits neatly into place:
“In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with 'Elohim,
and the Word was 'Elohim.
He was in the beginning with 'Elohim;
All things were made through him, and
without him was not anything made that was made”
(John 1:1-3)We can see how John draws on all the Old Testament teaching we have just considered.
Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8 (see above) as saying that she was in the beginning, that she was with 'Elohim, and that she was His instrument in creation.
The Word of 'Elohim created the heavens (Psalm 33:6), so did the Spirit as described in Job 26:13.
The language clearly is of figure and metaphor, of personification, not actual personality.
And John is saying exactly the same of the Logos or Word.
No Jewish reader brought up on the writings of the prophets would have deduced from John's introduction that he was alluding to a person who had existed with God from all time.
They would see it instead as a continuation of the imagery by which the Word or Wisdom or the Spirit those manifestations of 'Elohim which are inseparable from Him are described as putting 'Elohim's intentions into effect.
Bearing in mind the meaning of Logos as the thoughts and intentions of 'Elohim translated into action, we can see that what John is saying is that from the beginning 'Elohim had a plan a plan that was as inseparable from Him as is a thought from the person thinking it thus, 'the Word was 'Elohim'.
That plan necessitated the creation of the world, and so it could be said, in line with the language of the Old Testament, that the Logos was the original creative force.
To some readers of the English translations the use of the pronoun 'he' in referring to the Logos indicates that a person is intended.
But this is only a quirk of translation.
Along with some modern languages ancient Greek and Hebrew had masculine or feminine nouns, with the pronoun being literally 'he' or 'she' respectively.
In the majority of cases these pronouns are translated by the neuter 'it'.
When Tyndale translated the passage in 1525 he used “it” rather than “he”, but the translators of the AV did not follow him in this respect, as was their usual custom (about 90% of the AV is Tyndale's translation).
It is understandable that translators with a trinitarian bias should have taken the opportunity to render the pronoun as 'he' in the case of the masculine Word of John 1 and of the Comforter or Counsellor in John 14, but there is clearly no such intention in the original language.
On this Dunn says of what he terms the 'poem' of the John 1 prologue:
“.. we are dealing with personifications rather than persons, personified actions of 'Elohim rather than an individual divine being as such. The point is obscured by the fact that we have to translate the masculine Logos as 'he' throughout the poem. But if we translated logos as 'Elohim's utterance' instead, it would become clearer that the poem did not necessarily intend the Logos in vv1-13 to be thought of as a personal divine being”.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 16 2009,14:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:35) Hi CON,
Peter and John both felt blessed by what they SAW on the mountain.
Jesus was there and spoke with others
I would feel blessed as well, to have a “Vision” of the future, especially a glorified state.
Hi CON,
Yes they saw Jesus speaking with Elijah and Moses and it greatly impacted on them.At the same time they heard the voice of God.
Or did they??
“THE WORD BECAME FLESH”
Until the time of Jesus the word of 'Elohim had been revealed through 'Elohim's prophets.
But this was essentially an intermittent activity.
The prophets were often raised up to meet an express need at the time and each concentrated on 'Elohim's message of guidance or reproof, whilst at the same time looking to the future and giving glimpses of the overall plan of 'Elohim with mankind.
In this sense their ministry was fragmentary and partial.
In none of the prophets could it be said that the word became flesh, but was rather manifested through flesh.
But in Yeshua the Word became flesh 'Elohim's plan materialised in all its fulness.
Originally His plan to create a race of mighty beings in whom He could be perfectly manifested had only been an idea, a concept in his mind.
Then He put the first stages of this plan into action by creating the world and everything in it.
But his plan necessitated a redeemer to come in the likeness of humanity.
So the Plan, the Word, became flesh in the person of Yeshua.
Yeshua is the very centre of 'Elohim's plan for the earth.
All 'Elohim's intentions come to a focus in him.
There was no question with him of a partial manifestation of Yeshua's word as had occurred through the prophets, but Yeshua became a complete manifestation of his Father's thoughts and intentions: the “Logos became flesh”.
Note the use of 'became' Yeshua was not the word from the beginning in the sense that he pre-existed as a person, but he was the 'word made flesh'.
He was 'Elohim's Plan coming into action.
He was the complete expression of all the saving attributes of the Father “full of grace and truth”.
Looked at in this way the way of the first century Jew or Gentile to whom John was writing there was no hint of the personal pre-existence of Yeshua, no suggestion that he was Very 'Elohim clothed in human flesh.
The simplest and most straightforward view of Yeshua that such a reader would gain from this introduction was that Yeshua was the realisation of 'Elohim's plan for the earth.
He would see that the Messiah's being the Word made flesh is no reason for suggesting his personal divinity any more than it would be correct to say that the prophets were 'Elohim because the Logos was revealed through them.
This understanding of the Word made Flesh becomes all the more acceptable because it is completely in harmony with the rest of the early Apostolic writings about Yeshua.
The greatest apparent anomaly is removed and all the apostles are seen to speak with one voice.
It was only later, when influences outside of original Christianity began to obtrude that John 1:1-18 began to be taken as evidence of the personal pre-existence of the Messiah and the incarnation.
Barclay confirms this understanding in passages in which he expounds John's use of logos without giving it the trinitarian slant that for centuries has been attached to its meaning:
“Logos has two meanings, which no one English word can express. Logos means word, and Logos means mind. A word is the expression of thought. Therefore Yeshua is the expression of the thought of 'Elohim. Or to take the other meaning, in Yeshua we see the mind of 'Elohim … In Yeshua the mind of 'Elohim becomes a person”.
“In Greek logos means two things it means word and it means reason … The Logos of 'Elohim, the mind of 'Elohim, is responsible for the majestic order of the world …. He (John) said to the Greeks, “All your lives you have been fascinated by this great, guiding, controlling mind of 'Elohim. The mind of 'Elohim has come to earth in the man Yeshua. Look at him and you will see what the mind and thought of 'Elohim are like”.
“By calling Yeshua the logos, John said two things about Yeshua.
(A) Yeshua is the creating power of 'Elohim come to men. He does not only speak the word of knowledge; he is the word of power. He did not come so much to say things to us, as to do things for us.
(B) Yeshua is the incarnate mind of 'Elohim. We might well translate John's words, 'The mind of 'Elohim became a man'. A word is always 'the expression of a thought' and Yeshua is the perfect expression of 'Elohim's thoughts for men.
He then makes a plea that the present writers heartily endorse:
We should do well to rediscover and to preach again Yeshua HaMoshiach as the logos, the Word of 'Elohim”!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 16 2009,14:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:25) G,
They were yet unborn, just woken, like Samuel?
Could you explain that statement?
Hi CON.
The witch of Endor woke Samuel.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,20:06) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 16 2009,14:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:25) G,
They were yet unborn, just woken, like Samuel?
Could you explain that statement?
Hi CON.
The witch of Endor woke Samuel.
You buy into that? There is absolutly no proof that was even Samuel.Quote Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
…
Eccl 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.Quote Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.Quote Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. … Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
King David is still in the grave. He is still asleep, still dead, not in heaven.
So let's examine what happened regarding King Saul and the Witch of Endor.
King Saul was given very explicit instructions by 'Elohim through the prophet Samuel::
1 Sam 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
1 Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.So, just what did King Saul do?
Did he follow 'Elohim's instructions?
1 Sam 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
1 Sam 15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
1 Sam 15:9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
1 Sam 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,
1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.King Saul disobeyed 'Elohim.
He spared the King of the Amalekites and the finest of the animals in direct opposition to the command of 'Elohim.
Now when Samuel confronted Saul, note what Saul said:
1 Sam 15:13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.
Saul had the temerity to tell Samuel that he had done exactly as commanded by 'Elohim!
But Samuel knew better than that, after all, he had give Saul the instructions from 'Elohim in the first place.
So Samuel asks:
1 Sam 15:14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
1 Sam 15:19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?
Saul, his disobedience now exposed, actually tries to blame the people for his actions:
1 Sam 15:20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
1 Sam 15:21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy 'Elohim in Gilgal.Note how Samuel characterizes Saul's disobedience:
1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.Saul's transgression was of so great a magnitude that 'Elohim was removing him as King of Israel, even though Saul then admitted his sin:
1 Sam 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
1 Sam 15:25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.
1 Sam 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
1 Sam 15:27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
1 Sam 15:28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.After slaying Agag, Samuel departed from Saul, and never returned, even to the day Samuel died:
1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
In fact, the spirit of 'Elohim departed from Saul completely.
'Elohim no longer spoke to Saul:
1 Sam 16:14 But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Then later, the elderly Samuel died:
1 Sam 25:1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah.
So, now when faced by an enemy, Saul was no longer hearing from 'Elohim or his prophets:
1 Sam 28:4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
1 Sam 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
1 Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.So who does Saul seek council from?
Who does he seek to tell him what he must do?
Seeking After A Familiar Spirit
1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
'Elohim strongly condemned in scripture what Saul was going to do:
Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy 'Elohim.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.So, knowing that 'Elohim condemned it, Saul still went to consult with a witch, a spirit medium and a necromancer (one who claims to consult with the dead).
1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1 Sam 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1 Sam 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.Now, consider an important point.
Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven?
No.
Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave.
He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.
Note also that 'Elohim was no longer speaking to Saul, and 'Elohim's prophets were not speaking with Saul (1 Sam 28:6).
So now, are we to believe that a witch was going to thwart the will of 'Elohim by conjuring up Samuel from the grave, so that Saul could speak with a prophet of 'Elohim, against the explicit will of 'Elohim?
No witch could do such a thing.
Remember also, the witch at Endor was known for having a familiar spirit.
What is a familiar spirit anyway?
It is not an angel of 'Elohim, surely, because of 'Elohim's strong condemnation against consulting with them.
A familiar spirit is a demonic spirit, a fallen angel in league with Satan.
This is what the woman at Endor had, communication with a demon, a demon who was quite capable of impersonating Samuel.
It was NOT Samuel who appeared at her summons, it was a demon masquerading as Samuel.
The first thing that the demon did was expose Saul's masquerade to the witch:
1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
Now exposed to the witch, Saul continues to consult her:
1 Sam 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Sam 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.Note that Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw.
So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven).
King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of 'Elohim.
So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:
1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Again, note that Samuel is represented as coming up from the grave, not down from heaven.
Saul also affirms that he knows that 'Elohim refuses to communicate with him any more by any means, yet he expected to get guidance from a dead prophet of 'Elohim via a familiar (demonic) spirit.
The counsel Saul gets predicts the defeat of Israel and his imminent death, along with his sons:
1 Sam 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
1 Sam 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
1 Sam 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
1 Sam 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
1 Sam 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.Conclusion
King Saul was looking for help from the witch of Endor, to contact someone in the grave, a dead Samuel, so that he could know from 'Elohim how he could gain a victory over the Philistines.
But 'Elohim was not talking to Saul any more.
By knowing what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead, and the circumstances regarding Saul's relationship with 'Elohim at the time, we can be quite certain that it was not actually Samuel raised from the dead speaking to him, but a fallen angel, a demonic spirit.
That Saul even attempted this séance with a spirit medium (witch) was an abomination, a further rebellion against 'Elohim, and Saul paid for his rebellion with his life.
1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
1 Chr 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.The words in italics in verse 13 are supplied by the translat
or, as they are not in the original text.So if you drop those words, it reads:
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;
So the passage above clearly states, Saul communicated with a demonic spirit, not Samuel.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:58) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 16 2009,14:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,19:35) Hi CON,
Peter and John both felt blessed by what they SAW on the mountain.
Jesus was there and spoke with others
I would feel blessed as well, to have a “Vision” of the future, especially a glorified state.
Hi CON,
Yes they saw Jesus speaking with Elijah and Moses and it greatly impacted on them.At the same time they heard the voice of God.
Or did they??
I am sure Yahweh can speak in or through a vision.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
