Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene…….Neither does a “WORD” becoming Flesh make sense. Jesus' Flesh was (NOT) a WORD was it. So How could a word become flesh, what does a (FLESH WORD) look like, that is a true miracle that has never happened , Now if you say a word can be (IN) a Flesh person the would be correct. and If you realize a word IS (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE) and this (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE)  A WORD could be (IN) Jesus as Jesus said it was. “The words i am telling YOU are (NOT) MY WORDS but the word of HIM who sent me. How simple and clearer could it get.  IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

[Anonymous]

Gene, it does not mean a literal word. Jesus is THE WORD of God.

[georg]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,11:44)

Irene…….Neither does a “WORD” becoming Flesh make sense. Jesus' Flesh was (NOT) a WORD was it. So How could a word become flesh, what does a (FLESH WORD) look like, that is a true miracle that has never happened , Now if you say a word can be (IN) a Flesh person the would be correct. and If you realize a word IS (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE) and this (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE)  A WORD could be (IN) Jesus as Jesus said it was. “The words i am telling YOU are (NOT) MY WORDS but the word of HIM who sent me. How simple and clearer could it get.  IMO peace and love…………………..gene

Gene it makes sense when you put other Scriptures with it.
Col. 1:15-18
“He is the image of the invisible God, te firstborn of all creation.”
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth….
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn of the death, that in all tings He may have preeminence.
Meaning He was first in all.
Rev, 3:14
….”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”

Gene, why can't you see this? I know how hard it is to give up what you have believed for so long, I had once the same trouble, no more.
Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,06:44)

Irene…….Neither does a “WORD” becoming Flesh make sense. Jesus' Flesh was (NOT) a WORD was it. So How could a word become flesh, what does a (FLESH WORD) look like, that is a true miracle that has never happened , Now if you say a word can be (IN) a Flesh person the would be correct. and If you realize a word IS (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE) and this (INTELLIGENT UTTERANCE)  A WORD could be (IN) Jesus as Jesus said it was. “The words i am telling YOU are (NOT) MY WORDS but the word of HIM who sent me. How simple and clearer could it get.  IMO peace and love…………………..gene

What you state sounds sensible to me.

[NickHassan]

G,
Why is intelligence necessary?
Words often express folly and ignorance

[NickHassan]

G,
Why is necessary to avoid believing that Jesus is the Word of God?
Your argument is with scripture.

[NickHassan]

HG,
Surely Jesus is the Word because he most fully expressed the Word of God.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,12:35)

G, Why is intelligence necessary? Words often express folly and ignorance

Thank you for pointing that out as I missed that part of his point.

[georg]

And the Word became flesh, not intellect. Intellect is that somebody is like patient, smart, all the essence of the Holy Spirit,which God gave us.
Irene

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,08:25)

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,02:55) T8………If Jesus was not born He would not have existed, he was only in the plan of GOD until He was Bron of Mary. He was Foreordained , but was manifested (brought into existence) when he was born through Mary.  It this is not true then you are under obligation to produce proof of a preexistence activity and identification of his person before his Berth here on earth. Why would such an important fact be overlooked and not explicitly explained in scripture anyway? Preexistence is simply part of the Trinity false doctrines, among many others also. God did not take a preexisting Being (PERFECT) him (again) and Kill him twice, Simply logic should tell you that.   And if that be the case what does that prove to us , with regards to our perfection and salvation , Because Jesus would not Be (TRULY) EXACTLY Like us in (EVERY WAY) would he? Unless we also preexisted to.   IMO peace and love to you and yours T8………………gene Gene  That is not true even according to Christ's own words in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” What was that glory He had with the Father, but being a Spirit. If He created all, would He not have to be there.   Col, 12:15-18 like t8 wrote. Also Rev. 3:14 …”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, t5he beginning of the creation of God.” John 1:1 goes right along side of all these Scriptures. A thought in God's Plan can't become flesh in verse 14 It is not being overlooked, here are the prove for it.   I don't believe in the trinity or does t8 or my Husband for that matter.  He was just like us in all matters except that.  You know as well as I do that some of the Scriptures was tempered with.  To not acknowledge His preexisting is wrong, Gene.  Which one about that Jesus is like us, or the what three Scriptures that I gave.  One over three, I vote the one was tempered with. Peace and Love Irene

Quote

Jeremiah 1:5 King James Bible Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. New International Version (©1984) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” New American Standard Bible (©1995) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.” Bible in Basic English Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations. Webster's Bible Translation Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee; and before thou wast born I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
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Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
——————————————————————————–
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me.
——————————————————————————–
Isaiah 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength),

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,08:25)

Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,02:55) T8………If Jesus was not born He would not have existed, he was only in the plan of GOD until He was Bron of Mary. He was Foreordained , but was manifested (brought into existence) when he was born through Mary.  It this is not true then you are under obligation to produce proof of a preexistence activity and identification of his person before his Berth here on earth. Why would such an important fact be overlooked and not explicitly explained in scripture anyway? Preexistence is simply part of the Trinity false doctrines, among many others also. God did not take a preexisting Being (PERFECT) him (again) and Kill him twice, Simply logic should tell you that.   And if that be the case what does that prove to us , with regards to our perfection and salvation , Because Jesus would not Be (TRULY) EXACTLY Like us in (EVERY WAY) would he? Unless we also preexisted to.   IMO peace and love to you and yours T8………………gene Gene  That is not true even according to Christ's own words in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” What was that glory He had with the Father, but being a Spirit. If He created all, would He not have to be there.   Col, 12:15-18 like t8 wrote. Also Rev. 3:14 …”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, t5he beginning of the creation of God.” John 1:1 goes right along side of all these Scriptures. A thought in God's Plan can't become flesh in verse 14 It is not being overlooked, here are the prove for it.   I don't believe in the trinity or does t8 or my Husband for that matter.  He was just like us in all matters except that.  You know as well as I do that some of the Scriptures was tempered with.  To not acknowledge His preexisting is wrong, Gene.  Which one about that Jesus is like us, or the what three Scriptures that I gave.  One over three, I vote the one was tempered with. Peace and Love Irene

Revelation 3:14 King James Bible And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Quote

New International Version (©1984) “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. New American Standard Bible (©1995) “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: International Standard Version (©2008) “To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) “To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says: Bible in Basic English And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God's new order: World English Bible “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things: Young's Literal Translation 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;

Genesis 49:3 “Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.
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Deuteronomy 21:17 “But he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn.
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Proverbs 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
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John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
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2 Corinthians 1:20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
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Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
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Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–

[kerwin]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 14 2009,13:35)

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; ——————————————————————————– Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength),

Does Isaiah 49:1 have anything to do with Matthew 1:21?

Matthew 1:21(NIV) reads:

Quote

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2009,00:53)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 14 2009,13:35) Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; ——————————————————————————– Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), Does Isaiah 49:1 have anything to do with Matthew 1:21? Matthew 1:21(NIV) reads: Quote She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Sure it does, that in the fact that the Father knew all before the womb, all these verse prove that Yahweh knows who is to be born, and what their lives are going to be.

[georg]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 14 2009,19:53)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 14 2009,13:35) Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; ——————————————————————————– Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. ——————————————————————————– Isaiah 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), Does Isaiah 49:1 have anything to do with Matthew 1:21? Matthew 1:21(NIV) reads: Quote She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

kerwin Jesus was not only in the plan of God like some here want you to believe. He was brought forth by the Father before the World was.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14 He is the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:18 He also is the firstborn of te dead that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning that He was first in all.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,17:35)

G, Why is intelligence necessary? Words often express folly and ignorance

Nick……. What do you mean (WHY) is it necessary? Because (ALL) things show Intelligence, rather of a fool or GOD, and is expressed through words . Without intelligence NO life would exist Past, present or future. A WORD (IS) THE EXPRESSION OF THE INTELLECT OF A FOOL OR GOD, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. Words are Spirit and life and they (EXPRESS) both the intellect and life of that person, rather it is a fool or GOD. SPIRIT (INTELLECT) IS EXPRESSED THROUGH WORDS. “TRY THE SPIRITS (WORDS) TO SEE IF THEY ARE OF GOD.” and again “IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THESES (WORDS) THEY ARE NOT OF GOD”. How can you say word are not the expression of ones intellect? IMO

gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,17:37)

HG, Surely Jesus is the Word because he most fully expressed the Word of God.

Nick………If you spoke (exactly) every word of GOD perfectly as He told you to , would that make you (HIS) WORD then?, (NO) if you calamined to be that WORD then you would be a thief and a liar, Because it is GOD'S Words (NOT) YOURS WORDS you were speaking. Common sense would tell you that if John wanted to mean Jesus in John 1:1 he would have just written Jesus. You have not come out completely of the false teachings of the Mystery religion yet. You say you believe Jesus then believe what he said the (WORDS) were (NOT) HIS . IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………..gene

[Anonymous]

Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is before all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)

[NickHassan]

Hi KAT,
So Jesus is another deity?
How many do you have?
Polytheism is anathema

[Anonymous]

You have got to put the Old Testament and the New Testsment together before you will truly understand who Jesus is!Revelation 3:14

“. . . These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”

Problem:

This passage is usually quoted with Colossians 1 by J.W.'s to prove that Christ was the first of God's creation, and that all subsequent creation (e.g., trees and animals of Genesis 1) is the work of Christ. Therefore, it is argued, Christ existed before his birth in the days of Herod the King.

Solution:
1.Christ is the “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:11) of God's creation. This creation is not the creation of trees and animals as recorded in Genesis 1, but rather the “creation” of new men and women. “Create” and “creation” are frequently used in this regenerative sense in the New Testament. See, for example, the following: Eph. 2:10, 15 cf. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:9, 10 R.S.V.; Gal. 6:15; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 5:17.
2.Revelation 3:14 refers to this new creation and not to the creation of Genesis 1. This is indicated by the context:
a.“. . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.” (Rev. 3:11).
b.“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God . . . and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem . . . and I will write upon him my new name.” (vs. 12).
c.“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne . . .” (vs. 21).
The “making”, “writing” and “granting” refer to the “new” Jerusalem and the new name – the ultimate regeneration of believers, and not to the creative acts on the earth of Genesis 1.
3.Jesus is the “beginning” of this new creation – the first to live, die and to receive life for evermore. (Rev. 1:18). As Paul puts it: “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Col. 1:18). Christ is the “first and the last”, the “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:11)1 of this new creation.
4.A further proof, (but more lengthy to develop) that “the beginning of the creation of God” refers to Christ as “the firstborn from the dead” and not as the creator of the universe, can be deduced by noting that Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen” is a commentary on Rev. 3:14. If this can be shown then clearly Rev. 3:14 refers to the creation which commenced with Christ's death and resurrection. The proof rests in a comparison of the introductory statements about Jesus which begin each of the letters to the seven ecclesias with the description of Jesus in the first chapter. Consider the following:

a.To Ephesus – “These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.” (Rev. 2:1). Cf. Rev. 1:20.

b.To Smyrna – “These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive.” (Rev. 2:8). Cf. Rev. 1:11, 18.

c.To Pergamos – “These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges.” (Rev. 2:12). Cf. Rev. 1:16.

d.To Thyatira – “These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass.” (Rev. 2:18). Cf. Rev. 1:14, 15.

e.To Sardis – “These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars . . .” (Rev. 3:1). Cf. Rev. 1:4.

f.To Philadelphia – “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” (Rev. 3:7). Cf. Rev. 1:18.

g.Therefore,

h.To Laodicea – “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” (Rev. 3:14) Cf. “I am he that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” (Rev. 1:18). Clearly, “the beginning of the creation of God” = “I am he that liveth and was dead.” (i.e., “the firstborn from the dead”.) (Col. 1:18).

Footnotes:
1.The Alpha and Omega of Rev. 1:8 is the Father – the Almighty. Cf. Rev. 1:4, 5 where the distinction is made between “God” and “Jesus”. Note, too, the similarity between the language of vs. 4 and vs. 8

[NickHassan]

Hi KAT,
Why do you ignore the God of Jesus?

[Author]

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