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Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,03:32) NO, you still have it wrong. He is called our Lord God and the Almighty, and he is the creator!! Our only Saviour who came to earth in the flesh!
I posted this post in the Christmas thread, but it is more fitting over here.2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
There exists NO scripture that says that the promise of God was to send a son He already had to become a man.
Acts 13: 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son,Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
WHO was SENT? A God? A pre-existent son? NO, Jesus the human Messiah was sent, for the Father had promised such before time began.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was and is a MAN, not fully man and fully the one true God. Jesus received, from the One True God, the promise of the Spirit of eternal life. Jesus was raised flesh and bone and we too shall be raised with incorruptible flesh and bone!!!!!!
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
The ONE TRUE God the Father calls Jesus God because with the powers the Father has GIVEN to him, and with his position as a MEDIATOR of which was GIVEN to him, Jesus is to us as a God, but there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD of which ALL power and life COMES FROM, and that is YHWH the Father!
1Cor. 8:5-7… even as there are many gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
Lu 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
2 John 1:7For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The MAN, resurrected with flesh and bones, IS COMING, those who say he is coming as the one true God are an antichrist, for Christ represents the HUMAN messiah of which the Father has given His Spirit to.
So Katjo you could not be more wrong IMO saying “…..Our only Saviour who came to earth in the flesh!”
He was MADE lord and savior(Christ) by the Father. (Acts 2:36)
Ac 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
We have two saviors, one of which was MADE a savior through the plan and power of the other.
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
and again…… 1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
Titus 1:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedie
nt, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.God the Father SAVED us through the MAN Jesus.
It seems a bit rich if not absurd to think that God created all of creation through and for the son, and then billions of years later and 2000 years ago, the son is created (for the first time). Even more absurd is that we are told that the son is the image of the invisible God and that no one can see God. I guess for billions or so years, no one could see God or his glory in full, till 2000 years ago.
Scripture says that all things were created through HIM and for HIM. I accept that. Some here do not for some reason.
Jesus himself said “before Abraham, I am”. He said himself that he existed before Abraham. I choose to believe what he said.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 12 2009,15:29) To ALL……..WHY is something so simple, so difficult to understand? God was NOT Jesus, GOD was (IN) (IN) (IN) HIM, When does the light turn on here. peace and love……………………gene
Gene! So in Hebrew 1:6-9
God called Jesus God, now do you believe He is wrong too?
Read it and learn!!!! What you don't seem to understand that God is a title and even Satan is called God of this world. At the time many were called Gods. The Father is Almighty God and above all in Ephesias 4:6
“One God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.”
IreneScripture says that all things were created through HIM and for HIM. I accept that. Some here do not for some reason.
Scripture states that we are a new creature in the Anointed One.
Ephesians 2:10(KJV) reads:
Quote For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 4:24(KJV) reads:
Quote And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
James 1:18(KJV) reads:
Quote Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jesus is after all King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Jesus has more authority than Abraham.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2009,10:34) Scripture states that we are a new creature in the Anointed One.
That is not the same as all things were created through HIM and for HIM.t8- not created threw him and for him, BY HIM AND FOR HIM!!Col 1;17 He is before all things and by him all things consist! He was not created!
Irene, yep! God is a title, for who in the bible? Our Lord Jesus Christ! Our Lord God. (no capitals)And Jesus is called Rev. 1;8 The Almighty! 16;7 he is Lord God Almighty(no capital there either)He is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS(CAPITALS)!!!(21;6) speaking of jesus. I will be his God and he will be my son! He is also the everlasting Father in Isiah! He is God or there is tons of scripture that contradict each other. how do you look over these?
Irene ……..You can believe in as many GOD'S as you and T8 and the rest like. I'll follow what Jesus Said ” FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. So you and the rest are welcome to have as many true GOD'S as you want to , but for me and Jesus we have (ONLY) (ONE) (TRUE) GOD. You can also believe Jesus created everything if you like also, But I will believe what GOD Said and that was that He created everything (alone) and By HIMSELF> I also believe IN WHAT GOD COMMANDED “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME. SO you and other can ignore or misunderstand the scripture all you want to. But i choose to believe what GOD the FATHER said and what Jesus said. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg…………………..gene
T8……….read what Martian and CT have posted and think about it brother, they have explained these things clearly with sound logic and understanding. If you don't see Jesus exactly in every way like we are you simply do not see Jesus. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,06:48) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2009,10:34) Scripture states that we are a new creature in the Anointed One.
That is not the same as all things were created through HIM and for HIM.
How is “created in Christ Jesus” not the same as “created through HIM”?I am not even going to touch the “created for Him” which seems self evident.
The idea is still that Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 13 2009,11:49) t8- not created threw him and for him, BY HIM AND FOR HIM!!Col 1;17 He is before all things and by him all things consist! He was not created!
I agree that he wasn't created.
Creation is defined as that which was made by God through Christ.John 1:3
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.Colossians 1:15-19
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;
Quote Anything that is not clearly revealed in the Holy Scriptures is open to misunderstanding and is a matter of individual, or group, interpretation, or is tradition derived from other sources than the Holy Scriptures. Definitions of words and concepts need to be understood as to the meaning they had to the original penmen, and to the original readers, of the Holy Scriptures.
John 1:1
Word [Logos] = 'Elohim's utterance, means (action, power) of interaction, communicating his message [spoken, written, seen, etc.]
Attribute = An inherent characteristic, or, a characteristic that has always been present.
“In the beginning was the Word”….
What does this “beginning” refer to?
Not, 'Elohim, of course, since He has no beginning.
So, it must refer to His beginning of creation of anything, not just our solar system, but, the things and beings of the heavenly (spiritual) sphere.
Actually, the “Word” was already in existence before the beginning referred to in this verse.
This statement simply means that the “Word” was present at the time of this beginning.
The “Word” had no beginning because 'Elohim has always had the means [ability, attribute] of communication.
“and the Word was with 'Elohim”….
Just as a person's word (means of communication) is “with', or, “an attribute” of that person, so 'Elohim's Word was “with” or “an attribute” of 'Elohim.
“and the Word was 'Elohim [Divine].”….
In human terms, it might be said of a creature, “and the creature was human”.
This does not mean that all of humanity was in that creature, but, the characteristics (attributes) that make a human being human were present in the creature.
There may even be other humans that are more human, greater (have more human attributes) than this creature, but this creature is still considered human.
In the same way that a person's characteristics (attributes) constitute (establish, make up, compose, are the same as) that person, so the “Word” is the same as 'Elohim as far as it being divine.
Not all the essence of 'Elohim, but complete in all that there is as being divine.
We might say of a person, “he is as good as his word”, or, “he is his word”.
John 1:14
“And the Word became flesh”….
Notice that it says “the Word ['Elohim's utterance, means of communication or interacting]”, not 'Elohim the Father, “became flesh”.
'Elohim's means of interaction and communication with mankind became a human being (Yeshua HaMoshiach), the Son of 'Elohim, born of a virgin at a certain time and place in the history of mankind.
So, did Yeshua HaMoshiach pre-exist his birth as a human being?
No, not as a human being, but, as the “Word”, as 'Elohim's means of interacting and communicating with mankind.
Is Yeshua HaMoshiach the Almighty 'Elohim?
No, not in the sense of being the same person as Almighty 'Elohim (Who is the Father), but, Yeshua HaMoshiach is the “express image of His (the Father's) person”.
In this way, Yeshua HaMoshiach is the same as His Father, in the same way we would say of a human father and his son, “he is just like, or, the same as his father”. “When you see him (the human son), you see his father.”
They are not the same person, but, the way the son acts, the things he does, are the same things his father does, even though it may not be to the same capacity in all aspects.
They are one, in complete union (agreement), in what they do.
Col. 1:19, states “For it pleased the Father that in Him [Yeshua HaMoshiach] all fullness should dwell”.
Col. 2:9, says “For in Him [Yeshua HaMoshiach] dwells all the fullness of the G-dhead [deity] bodily”.
Then, look at what Eph. 3:19 says, “to know the love of Yeshua HaMoshiach which passes knowledge; that you [humans, Christians] may be filled with all the fullness of 'Elohim”.
We see it stated that Yeshua HaMoshiach had “all the fullness” and also, that Christians may be filled with “all the fullness”.
How can “all the fullness” be in more than one being?
The fact is that these Scriptures are talking about the “quality” of what is able to be there, and not “quantity”.
Therefore when John says “the Word was 'Elohim” and “the Word became flesh”, this too, has to be referring to “quality” and not to “quantity”, otherwise, a Christian would be all of 'Elohim that there is to the exclusion of all other beings making Christians all there is of 'Elohim.
Now, in 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul says “But for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach, by whom are all things, and we by Him.”
Also, in 1 Tim. 2:5 Paul writes, “There is one 'Elohim [the Father], and one mediator between 'Elohim [the Father] and men, the Man Yeshua HaMoshiach”.
From the above and other Scripture, we begin to get the impression that there is only one being that is 'Elohim, the Father, and a different being that is called Yeshua HaMoshiach, the Son of 'Elohim, and that they are completely different beings, but one in unity of purpose.
CT………Simply put a “WORD” is (intelligent utterance) This intelligent utterance was with GOD and WAS GOD. Intelligence can be passed from one to another, and is symbolically portrayed as water, “FOR I SHALL (POUR) FORTH OF MY SPIRIT (INTELLECT) UPON ALL FLESH” , Says the LORD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
T8………If Jesus was not born He would not have existed, he was only in the plan of GOD until He was Bron of Mary. He was Foreordained , but was manifested (brought into existence) when he was born through Mary. If this is not true then you are under obligation to produce proof of a preexistence activity and identification of his person before his Berth here on earth. Why would such an important fact be overlooked and not explicitly explained in scripture anyway? Preexistences is simply part of the Trinity false doctrines, among many others also. God did not take a preexisting Being (PERFECT) him (again) and Kill him twice, Simply logic should tell you that. And if that be the case what does that prove to us , with regards to our perfection and salvation , Because Jesus would not Be (TRULY) EXACTLY Like us in (EVERY WAY) would he? Unless we also preexisted to. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,02:55) T8………If Jesus was not born He would not have existed, he was only in the plan of GOD until He was Bron of Mary. He was Foreordained , but was manifested (brought into existence) when he was born through Mary. It this is not true then you are under obligation to produce proof of a preexistence activity and identification of his person before his Berth here on earth. Why would such an important fact be overlooked and not explicitly explained in scripture anyway? Preexistence is simply part of the Trinity false doctrines, among many others also. God did not take a preexisting Being (PERFECT) him (again) and Kill him twice, Simply logic should tell you that. And if that be the case what does that prove to us , with regards to our perfection and salvation , Because Jesus would not Be (TRULY) EXACTLY Like us in (EVERY WAY) would he? Unless we also preexisted to. IMO peace and love to you and yours T8………………gene
Gene That is not true even according to Christ's own words in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.”What was that glory He had with the Father, but being a Spirit.
If He created all, would He not have to be there.
Col, 12:15-18 like t8 wrote.
Also
Rev. 3:14 …”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, t5he beginning of the creation of God.”John 1:1 goes right along side of all these Scriptures.
A thought in God's Plan can't become flesh in verse 14
It is not being overlooked, here are the prove for it.
I don't believe in the trinity or does t8 or my Husband for that matter. He was just like us in all matters except that. You know as well as I do that some of the Scriptures was tempered with. To not acknowledge His preexisting is wrong, Gene. Which one about that Jesus is like us, or the what three Scriptures that I gave. One over three, I vote the one was tempered with.Peace and Love Irene
Jesus bith and life is even in scriptures all over the Old testament. 700 years later the prophecys were fulfilled in the birth of our Lord.
Irene…………The glory Jesus had with the FATHER was the GLORY He was to recieve and did recieve it, this Glory was in the (PLAN) of GOD from the foundations of the earth, Jesus came into being and after he was resurrected recieved that Glory the FATHER had PLANED for HIM before the foundations of the earth. What is so hard to understand about that, it has been explainded many times here. I maintain Jesus did not preexist His berth on earth except in GOD'S Plan, and IF he did then we also did. That is the only way he could be (EXACTLY LIKE US). Just believe what Peter said , he explained it rightly. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg.
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 14 2009,02:40) CT………Simply put a “WORD” is (intelligent utterance) This intelligent utterance was with GOD and WAS GOD. Intelligence can be passed from one to another, and is symbolically portrayed as water, “FOR I SHALL (POUR) FORTH OF MY SPIRIT (INTELLECT) UPON ALL FLESH” , Says the LORD. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
And that utterance became flesh? Makes no sense at all, Gene
Irene
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