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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Nov. 11 2009,16:52) Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,15:28) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:38) The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”
The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?
What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.
If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.
MandyDid not God, through his son (Jesus), create the universe from nothing? Do you think it would be a greater task to place his son as a sperm into the womb of Mary?
He had to be all human because he came to die, take the place in the grave for a human;Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
he was the exchange that took on all of our sins, and the penalty for sin is death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If you think it is no big deal for God to give you a spirit body after your resurrection, why should it be any harder for God to do it the other way around?
The seed of David means, from the same blood line, not necessarily a direct descendant from David. Abraham of course is the father of the nation Israel.
If Jesus began his life when he was born of Mary, God could not have send him, how can you send your son who is not yet born?
Father: he who gives live to the son.
Son: he who receives live from the father.
That is why Jesus calls God his Father, and himself the son.Georg
Hi Georg,The Father was sending His PROMISE!! What part of the pre-existent son was the infant that sucked on his mother's boobie and crapped in his diaper? …….or whatever they had in those days=) …seriously, come on, think about it! YHWH didn't send a pre-existent being to become an embryo, then a fetus, then an infant, then a boy, then a man. He sent into the world that which He had Promised, a human Messiah that would be to Him a Son because of his obedience as a MAN!
Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
The “he” is not speaking of the pre-existing Jesus but the after- existing Jesus, the ….RESURRECTED Jesus, the human being raised flesh and bones… IMO!!
Jodi! How do you explain these scriptures
Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
verse 16
For by Him all things were created, that are in earth and that are in heaven, visible ad invisible, ………If He was to create all by the power of the Father, He had to be there, not just in the plan of God.
verse 18
:And He is the head of the body, the church, the beginning, the firstborn of the dead. So that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.Rev. 3:14…”These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”
This is pretty plain to me, that He was with the Father before the world was.
By Jesus own words He said this
John 17:5
“And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”What was that glory that Jesus had with te Father before the world was?
IMO He was a Spirit Being like the Angels. Now He is deity like His Father and can't die no more. For that He was called to come and die for us, so we could have life everlasting.
It says God so loved the world, that He send His only begotten Son so that whoever believes on Him will have everlasting live.
Question where did God send His Son from?
Hebrew 2:16 happend too, after He became a Human being, an emptied Himself.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 11 2009,02:54) Why you trying to make it magical with your hocus pocus ideas? Nothing hocus pocus about John’s clear words.
In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God, “and the Word was God. John 1:1
But you totally ignore John 1:1c in which the literal interpretation is 'And God was the Word”.
So according to your interpretation of the text the Father was with himself and was made flesh and dwelt among us!
It doesn’t say the word was spirit, does it? It doesn’t say in the beginning was the Spirit but you take a giant leap in your theology and “hocus pocus” in John 1:14 the spirit was made flesh and dwelt among us!
The Gospel of John is the very last writing of the canon and John knew who the Word was…
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and “his name is called The Word of God”. Rev 19:13
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of “the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, “which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. John 1:1-3
It is the Arians that use magical interpretations by making clear words disappear rather than believing the simple words written therein!
They even deny the unambiguous translations of the Greek text!
WJ
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 11 2009,10:04) See how many scriptures contradict each other when you dont believe in the trinity!! God became flesh!
I don't see any contradictions.WJ…….Where does the Airans say the WORD means Jesus, that is your Trinitarian teaching, but what is written says (WORD) not Jesus, So who is trying to change the text, By putting different words in place of other words. God's word is who GOD is , as your words are who you are, and Jesus' word are who He is, (WORDS) , trying to make GOD'S words Jesus is a total perversion of scripture, specially when we consider Jesus said the words He spoke were not (HIS) WORDS. But trinitarians continue to ignore even what Jesus said and try to force the text to mean Jesus, when His name is no where written there. God was speaking HIS OWN WORDS through Jesus , Just as he did the prophets, If i were to quote something GOD said , I would be a thief if i told you they were my words. Jesus even said he who believes on me does not believe in me but on him who sent me, why because Jesus was speaking the one who sent hims words, Not his words. Why can't you understand that WJ?
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 11 2009,14:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 11 2009,02:54) Why you trying to make it magical with your hocus pocus ideas? Nothing hocus pocus about John’s clear words.
In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God, “and the Word was God. John 1:1
But you totally ignore John 1:1c in which the literal interpretation is 'And God was the Word”.
So according to your interpretation of the text the Father was with himself and was made flesh and dwelt among us!
It doesn’t say the word was spirit, does it? It doesn’t say in the beginning was the Spirit but you take a giant leap in your theology and “hocus pocus” in John 1:14 the spirit was made flesh and dwelt among us!
The Gospel of John is the very last writing of the canon and John knew who the Word was…
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and “his name is called The Word of God”. Rev 19:13
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of “the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, “which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. John 1:1-3
It is the Arians that use magical interpretations by making clear words disappear rather than believing the simple words written therein!
They even deny the unambiguous translations of the Greek text!
WJ
Yeshua was not an uncommon name in Biblical history.It is a Latin form of the Greek “Iesous” and corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua or Yhohshua which means “Salvation of Jehovah.”
Ref: Aid to Bible Understanding, c. 1971, pub. I.B.S.A., New York
The Son of 'elohim is sometimes distinguished from others of that name by his title: the HaMoshiac (Christ).
Christ is from the Greek Khristos and its meaning is the same as the Hebrew Mashiahh/Moshiahh (Messiah) and means “Anointed One.”
Ref: Harper's Bible Dictionary
Many other names are used throughout the Bible to describe Yeshua HaMoshiac including the Greek Logos which is translated “Word.”
Speaking of the Word, Paul states that He was in existence even before the world was created: “He is the image of the invisible 'elohim, the first born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible …. all things were created through him and for him.” (Colossians 1:15-16)
Yeshua was Yahweh's only direct creation, “. . . his only begotten Son. . . ” (John 3:16, KJV)
Thereafter, Jehovah used Yeshua as the instrument through which everything else was created.
This did not mean that Yeshua was a co-creator with Yahweh, but only a servant of 'elohim who carried out the Almighty's will.
Yeshua always credited Yahweh with creation (see Matthew 19:4-6).
At the proper time in 'elohim's plan, the Word was make a human: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” (John 1:14, NIV)
Gene, if the word does not mean Jesus, than who was it that became flesh and dwelt among us? Was that Jesus? And the word was GOD!!
Katjo………Have you ever seen a (WORD) become FLESH, The word (came to Be) in Jesus, that was GOD (IN) Him via HIS SPIRIT. Remember Jesus said “THE FATHER WAS (IN) ME”. THAT IS HOW THE WORD CAME TO BE (in) flesh. But you and the rest of the trinitarians group take it to mean Jesus was the GOD THAT WAS (IN) HIM. GOD can be in (ALL) that does not make (ALL) GOD, does it. Same with Jesus. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
To ALL……..WHY is something so simple, so difficult to understand? God was NOT Jesus, GOD was (IN) (IN) (IN) HIM, When does the light turn on here.
peace and love……………………gene
Gene-Maybe this scripture will explain it clearer; 1TIMOTHY3:16 AND WITHOUT CONTROVERSY GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS; GOD WAS MAINFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, RECEIVED UP IN GLORY!!
Katjo……….Good , GOD was Manifested (IN) the Flesh of Jesus , you have that right, but where you and the rest of the trinitarians fall down is your making JESUS the GOD that WAS (IN) HIM. It says that GOD may be (IN) all and Trough (ALL) that does (NOT) make the ALL GOD that is (IN) them. The same with Jesus, remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was (IN) him Does the WORK. Get it Jesus was (NOT) the GOD doing the work (IN) HIM> The MYSTERY is that we don't KNOW HOW the ONE GOD does it in people. That is the Great Mystery of Godliness. GOD was manifested in the FLESH of Jesus, GOD can also be manifested in US also, Just like he was in Jesus, That is how (ONE) GOD will be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL). the same way he was in Jesus.
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 12 2009,15:55) Katjo……….Good , GOD was Manifested (IN) the Flesh of Jesus , you have that right, but where you and the rest of the trinitarians fall down is your making JESUS the GOD that WAS (IN) HIM. It says that GOD may be (IN) all and Trough (ALL) that does (NOT) make the ALL GOD that is (IN) them. The same with Jesus, remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was (IN) him Does the WORK. Get it Jesus was (NOT) the GOD doing the work (IN) HIM> The MYSTERY is that we don't KNOW HOW the ONE GOD does it in people. That is the Great Mystery of Godliness. GOD was manifested in the FLESH of Jesus, GOD can also be manifested in US also, Just like he was in Jesus, That is how (ONE) GOD will be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL). the same way he was in Jesus. peace and love……………….gene
Amen to that good post brother Gene.
Love and peace
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 12 2009,13:50) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 12 2009,15:55) Katjo……….Good , GOD was Manifested (IN) the Flesh of Jesus , you have that right, but where you and the rest of the trinitarians fall down is your making JESUS the GOD that WAS (IN) HIM. It says that GOD may be (IN) all and Trough (ALL) that does (NOT) make the ALL GOD that is (IN) them. The same with Jesus, remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was (IN) him Does the WORK. Get it Jesus was (NOT) the GOD doing the work (IN) HIM> The MYSTERY is that we don't KNOW HOW the ONE GOD does it in people. That is the Great Mystery of Godliness. GOD was manifested in the FLESH of Jesus, GOD can also be manifested in US also, Just like he was in Jesus, That is how (ONE) GOD will be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL). the same way he was in Jesus. peace and love……………….gene
Amen to that good post brother Gene.
Love and peace
Adam
I have to agree since God is manifest in the flesh of anyone whom walks according to the ways of the Spirit of Righteousness.NO, you still have it wrong. He is called our Lord God and the Almighty, and he is the creator!! Our only Saviour who came to earth in the flesh!
Hi KAT,
Your desperate defence of catholic dogmas is impressive.
But why not support the Lord Jesus?
He said he is the son of GodSon does not refer to a literal son like we have a son Nick! I wish you would please stop putting your catholic opinions up! you are judging!
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 11 2009,23:55) Katjo……….Good , GOD was Manifested (IN) the Flesh of Jesus , you have that right, but where you and the rest of the trinitarians fall down is your making JESUS the GOD that WAS (IN) HIM. It says that GOD may be (IN) all and Trough (ALL) that does (NOT) make the ALL GOD that is (IN) them. The same with Jesus, remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, but the FATHER who was (IN) him Does the WORK. Get it Jesus was (NOT) the GOD doing the work (IN) HIM> The MYSTERY is that we don't KNOW HOW the ONE GOD does it in people. That is the Great Mystery of Godliness. GOD was manifested in the FLESH of Jesus, GOD can also be manifested in US also, Just like he was in Jesus, That is how (ONE) GOD will be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL). the same way he was in Jesus. peace and love……………….gene
GBWas God “JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, RECEIVED UP IN GLORY!!?
1 Tim 3:16Try again, the scripture is speaking of the Word that was with God and was God, or the litteral translation is “God was the Word”! John 1:1
WJ
Jesus is not God’s Son in the same way as a human father and a son. God did not get married and have a son. God did not get with Mary and produce a son. Jesus is God’s Son in the sense that He is God made manifest in human form (John 1:1, 14). Jesus is God's Son in that He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:35 says; “The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.’ Read John 17:12 where Judas is described as the “son of perdition.” John 6:71 tells us that Judas was the son of Simon. The word perdition means “destruction, ruin, waste.” Judas was not the literal son of “ruin, destruction, and waste,” but those things were the identity of Judas' life. Judas was a manifestation of perdition. In this same way, Jesus is the Son of God.
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