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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,06:51) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,13:31) “Even before Abraham was born, I am the Messiah. Therefore [since he claimed to be the Messiah] they picked up stones to throw at him.”
So the fact that Jesus said… “Even before Abraham was born” had no bearing on them?Just like the Jews they stopped their ears to Jesus claim of being with the Father before abraham!
Earlier in the chapter Jesus says…
But he continued, “You are from below; “I am from above“. You are of this world; “I am not of this world“. John 8:23
Arians totally deny these clear words. The distinction Jesus makes between his origin and the origin of every other man is a death blow to the unbelieving Jews as well as the modern day Arians!
And so Jesus says…
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. John 8:24
Jesus continues…
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I “proceeded” (exerchomai) forth and “came” ( from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:42
The Greek word for Proceeded is Strong's G1831 – exerchomai and is defined as;
1) to go or come forth of
a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs
1) of those who leave a place of their own accord“Proceeded” is in the Active voice. The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action
The Greek word for Came is Strong's G2240 – hēkō and is defined as;
1)to have come, have arrived, be present
“Came” is in the active voice also. The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action
So Jesus claim is unambiguous that he preexisted and came in the likeness of sinful flesh!
So the Jews said…
…Thou art not yet fifty years old, and “hast thou seen Abraham?” John 8:57
Jesus answered them and said…
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was”, I am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him. Vrs 59.
The reason they were stoning him was also because he claimed to be before Abraham.
Just like the Jews they stopped their ears to Jesus claim being with the Father before abraham!
WJ
Keith,
Con thinks he is learned in the Greek.thinker
WJ………Where does Jesus say he was (BORN) in Heaven,and lived as some kind of Being there before his berth on earth, i have never read that, If that be so then why does he say over and over He is (SON) of Man. Why not just deny he is SON of MAN here below and Say he is (ONLY) a SON OF GOD from the above. In fact He says “when the SON OF (MAN) RETURNS, WILL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH, so it seems he still is SON OF MAN , just like we are, so then how is he son of GOD also, is it not the (SAME) way WE are Sons of GOD, “know you not that (NOW) are we sons of GOD.” Through the Spirit of GOD we (ARE) NOW SONS of GOD and SONS of MAN also. WJ , Trinitarians and preexistences have totally corrupted the truth of GOD and HIS Words. Simply put pure pagan ideologies and confusion upon confusion, or you people would not have to continue forcing the text to make is say what it does not specifically say, you add your conclusion the the text, speculations at best. Best thing you can do is come our of Her (Mystery religion) and quite changing the text to meet Her false teachings. IMO
gene
WJ…….When Jesus said you are from below and He was from above, He was speaking in a intellectual since, (Not in a literial Place of origin since) He was telling them there thought were from a earthly point of view, His was from a heavenly point of view, Just like when he told Peter “get behind me Satan, you savor not the things of GOD, from above, Peter was not yet converted and was seeing things through the eyes of man not the eyes of GOD who is above. Hope that may helped you.
peace and love………………gene
G,
He was speaking to a satan, in Peter.
He used the same language when on top of the temple
He often spoke to such evil spirits and I am surprised that you have not heard of his workgene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,19:09) WJ………Where does Jesus say he was (BORN) in Heaven..
I never said he was born in heaven did I?So try again!
WJ
Gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,19:40) WJ…….When Jesus said you are from below and He was from above, He was speaking in a intellectual since,
So you say, but tell that to the Jews who wanted to crucify him for his claim that he existed before Abraham!Why don't you address the Greek text and its intended meaning by the inspired writers?
Is it because it will destroy your Arian faith?
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,12:20) G,
He was speaking to a satan, in Peter.
He used the same language when on top of the temple
He often spoke to such evil spirits and I am surprised that you have not heard of his work
Nick……..The only thing in Peter was a (adversarial) Spirit (intellect)which he recieved from his own or lower nature, even Jesus told Him for you (perceive) not the things of GOD. That was the way (PETER) himself was before his conversion, not some spook jumping in him and controlling Him. You must get rid of these false teaching of devil and demon (BEINGS) they do not exist, The devils are Just the adversarial spirits (intellects) that are (IN) men and women. Not some fallen angelic beings controlling them, as false Mystery religion would have you believe. When Jesus was tested He overcame his (OWN) Human nature, not some Spook trying to control HIM. Jesus overcame himself and put himself to death when he was tempted by the adversarial Spirit (IN) HIM. He (OVERCAME) IT, and proved it by putting himself to death in obedience to GOD the FATHER. IMOgene
Bible clearly shows that Jesus had no existence prior to his birth in Bethlehem, 1900 years ago. He was born of the virgin Mary, by the overshadowing power of God (Luke 1:30-35), and thus was both son of God and son of man.
From his mother, he derived the nature common to all mankind, but from his Father he inherited latent spiritual proclivities that strengthened him to conquer the flesh, and manifest divine qualities (1 Tim. 3:16).
He was executed as a criminal, but, in fact, never sinned, and therefore God's justice demanded his resurrection (Acts 2:24).
He was raised to immortality, and ascended into heaven, where he awaits the time to return and set up his reign on earth (Acts 3:19-23; Daniel 2:44).
Nowhere is it suggested that he existed before his birth.
Observe the opening verse of the New Testament:
“The genealogy of Jesus Christ the SON of David, the SON of Abraham”.
If Jesus lived in some form before Abraham and David, he was not their son, and the statement is false.
We believe that the statement is true, and all Scripture agrees therewith. Consider the record of his early childhood:
“Jesus increased in wisdom, and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52).
How can these words possibly apply to a pre-existent angel, or the second person of a Triune God?
Could such a one increase in wisdom and in favor with God?
Assuming the impossible were true, and Jesus pre-existed as an angel, on what grounds could it be said that he increased in favor with God merely because in his new state he grew from a baby to a youth!
If Jesus pre-existed, he must have divested himself of all previous identity, lost all his former knowledge, power and standing with God, and had to establish this all again!
What for?
What did it accomplish?
Is such belief logical?
We shall show it is unscriptural!
It is normal procedure for a child to “develop in wisdom and stature,” but where Jesus differed from all before or since, was in his Divine conception, and his exceptional predilection for spiritual things.
This he inherited from his Father.
The Father who is from everlasting became revealed in the Son (2 Cor. 5:19; Isa. 11:2-3; John 12:49), so that Jesus could say with perfect truth, “before Abraham was I am” for he was “God manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim. 3:16).
The only sense in which it can be taught with truth that there was anything pre-existent about Jesus is in relation to God Who was manifested in him.
In all that he did and said, there was manifest the impress of his divine origin, and the influence of God's spirit which was given him “without measure” (John 3:34).
He is “the only begotten son” of God (John 3:16), whom “the Lord made strong for Himself” (Psalm 80:17), in order that His ways might be revealed unto men.
Hi CON,
God's justice demands the resurrection of unfairly killed men?
No his resurrection identified him as the new David from ProphecyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,12:59) Hi CON,
He was Son of David according to the flesh[Rom1] but by adoption.
His Spirit did come from heaven even as does the Spirit of all who are reborn.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,22:58) Hi CON,
God's justice demands the resurrection of unfairly killed men?
No his resurrection identified him as the new David from Prophecy
The new David?Bump!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,13:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,10:03) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,12:06) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,08:39) thinker……..Still waiting for (ONE) scripture that says Jesus Preexisted His berth on earth, as some kind of (Being) some where. Using Davids prophetic statement to try to work a preexistence view doesn't work. We need proof not some speculations of your and WJ's., Ct is right in what he is saying.
IMOgene
Gene, he will not agree, thus the ad hominen attacks and his self proclaimed “Greek “watch dog” on this board” ruse (double standard), as if it gives him authority to denounce anything else that may be implied or added.It seems he utilizes the ad hominen style with all who disagree with him, just review his posts with those in opposition to him. It also sets a standard that he qualifies himself as a master of the Greek so that no one else on this board can possibly be counted worthy of dialogue because of a lack of understanding or education.
It is a shame.
ConBut the point is you have not touched on the Greek, neither have you addressed any points concerning scriptures where Jesus claimed preexistence.
If preexistence to you means that he had to be “Deity” then fine, but just trying to prove that Jesus is not Deity rather than touching on facts of his preexistence is proof of your willingness to turn your head from the truth!
Just because you do not believe Jesus is Deity does not change the intended meaning of the writers of the Greek text and the translators!
WJ
Jesus never claimed pre-existance. Trinitarians try to paint that picture.
Really.Then please show us how Jesus is not claiming preexistence in John chapter 6?
Why don't you give it a shot and address the scriptures and the Greek tenses that I showed in the post?
WJ
Con, here is the post! Have at it!
Hi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 10 2009,18:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,22:58) Hi CON,
God's justice demands the resurrection of unfairly killed men?
No his resurrection identified him as the new David from Prophecy
The new David?
Hi CON,
Yes.
Ps 89
The type of King and Priest.Hi CON,
That is why Peter had to take several psalms in Acts 2 and show the jews that they spoke of Jesus and not David.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,23:24) Con, here is the post! Have at it! Hi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
“This is a hard saying, who can understand it?” asked the disciples (v.60).It was followed by one even more difficult: “What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?”
So ridiculous did this sound to some of Yeshua' disciples that they left him (v.66).
And that conclusively proves that they knew nothing of the theory of a pre-existent messiah.
Moreover, consider the title the Lord used.
He described himself as “Son of Man.”
Was the pre-existent one a Son of Man?
Evidently he was if this reference is relied upon as proof of his supposed pre-existence.
What did the Lord mean by these difficult sayings?
They appear at the end of a long conversation with the Jews, based upon the giving of manna in the wilderness, and the circumstances provide the key to their meaning.
The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33).
Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of 'elohim, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below?
Or did 'elohim send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?
Undoubtedly the latter, as any reasonable person will concede.
That is the sense, therefore, in which we must understand the Lord's allusions to himself.
Consider the circumstances of his birth.
The angel told his mother:
“The holy spirit shall come upon thee, the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore that holy thing that shall be bo
rn of thee shall be called the Son of 'elohim” (Luke 1:35).Yeshua was “the only begotten Son of 'elohimd” and therefore from above.
Paul taught that “'elohim was in the Messiah, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19).
That which was in the Messiah (the Spirit) had come down from heaven, and tabernacling in the flesh of Yeshua, ascended into heaven after his resurrection.
That this is the true meaning, is shown by the explanatory words of the Lord himself.
To the confused disciples he declared:
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:62-63).
'Elohim, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45).
Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form.
It descended as the power of 'elohim; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.
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