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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 08 2009,11:50) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,18:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,12:11) Kerwin,
Do you think that the spirit of a man is “formed in the womb?”
That is a fairly tough question. I know from biology that we inherit life from both our mother and our father and I believe in some areas of scripture life is called spirit. I also believe we inherit a corrupt spirit from our parents. In both cases the cycle was started when God breathed life into Adam.Jesus is an exception. This is possibly because of his miraculous conception. I believe God gave him a new spirit making him the prototype of those who would be.
Please do not confuse soul with spirit as by spirit I mean the essential principle influencing the person. The soul would be the person themselves.
If you were asking about the soul then I am prone to believe that too is formed in your mother's womb.
Job 31:15(NIV) reads:
Quote Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
Hi KW,
The spirit that God gave Adam is corrupt or has become corrupt and yet returns to God at death?[ecc12]Where do you find scriptural support for this odd idea?
If you do not then it because you are not listening.Why do all men need to be reborn in Spirit?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,11:43) Hi All John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Where did Adam come from when he was created?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,11:50) G,
So we are born without a spirit?
Yet scripture says without a spirit we are dead[Jas2]So is everyone stillborn?
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
A body that doesn't breathe [πνεύματος] is dead. In the same way faith that does nothing is dead.πνεύματος: pneuma: As where we get the word “pneumatic,” it is a driven force, air, wind, breathe, which animates the bellows of the lungs to oxygenates the blood.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2009,21:37) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,00:27) Nick……….You would have died if someone did not feed you and teach you to eat and take care of you until you acquired enough strength and knowledge to sustain yourself. So in that sense you are still born you are the same as a dead person you knew nothing the only thing keeping you alive was you the automatic process center of your brain causing you heart to pulse and your lungs to breath and other human being to care for you. But you had NO knowledge until after you were born and acquired it. John Said (ALL) that is in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life are (FROM) the World. We acquire this Spirit (intellect) from the world we were not born with it. IMO gene
GeneDo you believe babys in the womb have Spirit?
Your theology says no! Since you believe that Spirit is “intellect or thoughts”.
Babys do not have intellect do they? Blows a hole in your “intellect is Spirit” theology doesn't it?
Nick makes a valid point which you didn't address!
The body without the Spirit is dead!
WJ
The child in the womb receives its spirit (breathe) from the mothers blood. Life is in the blood.CT………I agree with you, the life of a child in the womb, is sustained by its mother, the blood is its mothers blood going through it's body, it does not become a separate Soul until it is born and receives the breath of Life itself and it becomes a living soul, Just as Adam did also. Another point that should be made here is that (ALL) life is sustained by Spirit even animals as well as humans. SPIRIT is (INTELLECT) no matter how small or how advances it is , it is what LIFE is. Even one celled animals have Spirit (intellect) in them or how could they even function , they would die if Spirit was removes from them also in fact (ALL) Things That has life would die without Spirit (intellect) in them. Are all things aware that they Have life No, but none the less they do, and what sustains that life is Spirit (intellect) from GOD. The INTELLECT (Spirit) from GOD is working in ALL things that have life in them. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours CT…………………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,13:28) Hi Jodi,
Where does it say Jesus was created?
Matthew 1:23-25 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21
Quote For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. To foreknow and to predestinate are not the same thing. One is an act of foreknowledge, or knowing something before it occurs; the other is to decree something. We only have knowledge of the past, but God foresees the future even as he sees the past; foresees it, not because he has decreed it, but because there are no limitations on his knowledge. Augustine says: There can be no predestination without foreknowledge; but there can be foreknowledge without predestination.''
Whom does God foreknow ? Those who shall love God. As he looked into the future these were present to his mind; foreknown. What did he predestinate of them ? Not that they should love God. Not that they should believe; nor that some should be saved and others damned; but that those who he saw beforehand would love God, should be conformed to the image of his Son. The only thing predestinated, or foreordained, is that those who love God as revealed in Christ shall become Christlike in life, and like Christ in eternity. This is the only decree in the passage.
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
WJ……….your trying to justify Jesus' preexistence is a false teaching. NO where is it found in scripture the Jesus preexisted his berth on earth. He was prophesied to come into being, just as Moses said he was , from his (OWN) brethren , Just because Jesus said he was sent from above , no where suggests his preexistence, that is simply a part of (MYSTERY RELIGION) and is not sustained in scripture no matter how you and other trinitarians try to twist them to say that. Jesus (WAS) FOREORDAINED (in the plan of GOD) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence) in (OUR) time. Don't you people think that PETER would KNOW if Jesus was Preexistence and would have just say it. But notice he did (NOT) say that did HE. In fact (NO) Apostle ever used the words preexisted concerning Jesus' existence as a being . All these false teaching have clouded up the whole understand of Scriptures among the masses, only a few seem able to see through these false teachings , Thanks be to GOD the FATHER for that. So indeed the blind still lead the blind as they continue to fall in ditches. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,09:11) WJ……….your trying to justify Jesus' preexistence is a false teaching. NO where is it found in scripture the Jesus preexisted his berth on earth. He was prophesied to come into being, just as Moses said he was , from his (OWN) brethren , Just because Jesus said he was sent from above , no where suggests his preexistence, that is simply a part of (MYSTERY RELIGION) and is not sustained in scripture no matter how you and other trinitarians try to twist them to say that. Jesus (WAS) FOREORDAINED (in the plan of GOD) (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence) in (OUR) time. Don't you people think that PETER would KNOW if Jesus was Preexistence and would have just say it. But notice he did (NOT) say that did HE. In fact (NO) Apostle ever used the words preexisted concerning Jesus' existence as a being . All these false teaching have clouded up the whole understand of Scriptures among the masses, only a few seem able to see through these false teachings , Thanks be to GOD the FATHER for that. So indeed the blind still lead the blind as they continue to fall in ditches. IMO gene
I work in a high rise building.My boss has an office on the top floor.
My office is halfway down.
The phone rings, from above, my bosses office in the top office.
He tells me to deliver the project I am working to the ground floor.
I deliver the project to the ground floor.
I was never in the top floor, but I was sent from the top floor above, and my project was delivered.
NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought.
gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,07:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
Gene! However Scriptures tell me something else.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
verse 16
For by Him all things were created that are on earth and that are in heaven…..
verse 17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
verse 18
And He is the head of the body, the church who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence.Rev. 3:14 .. “These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
That shows me that Jesus was with the Father before all was created.
Even by Jesus own word He said this
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
That was not just in the Fathers plan it was reality.He gave all of that up and emptied Himself and became a Human to die for us, so we can live forever.
W.J. has also a good post with other Scriptures. That thisis pagan is about the sillyes thing I heard so far. So these Scriptures are pagan? Give me a break.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene @ Nov. 09 2009,07:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
Gene,
You show your ignorance of history. The gnostics denied that God could have our exact likeness. You are either ignorant of history or deliberately misrepresenting it. Jesus did not preexist “in the mind of God.” He was Himself in the beginning with God (John 1:1).The Bible everywhere repudiates your damning views.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 08 2009,09:34) Hi CON,
So it rather says he was conceived?
Do they not attempt to give him a lineage? Twice?Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,12:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
I agree.Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,12:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,12:06) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,12:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
And this disproves Christ's preexistance how? “Gennao” is speaking about His origin according to the flesh and not His whole ontology. Jesus Himself claimed to be both the ROOT and OFFSPRING of David. Jesus said that He was David's Lord. David called Messiah “my Lord” indicating that he knew Him.Chew on the “root” and “offspring” idea for a while. Where did you study Greek? Did you earn or buy your degree?
thinker
Thinker…….What problem is there with realizing Jesus was from the root of David and was His offspring, the only one who have problems with that are those with the false Trinitarian and preexistence dogmas . If you are so sure Jesus preexisted his berth then produce (ONE) Scripture that say He preexisted His berth as some kind of Being some where. And while you are at it tell us what was his name and what exactly was his position in his preexistent state. Why complete Scripture silence on this. Peter sure did not think he preexisted did he, neither did the other apostles. You have bought into the Mystery religious Lies. The best thing you could do for yourself is to come out of those false teachings brought about by MYSTERY Pagan RELIGIONS. IMO
gene
HI CON,
Conception is mentioned in relationship to Jesus but only in Mary's womb and not the mind of God.
Such biblical unitarianism ideas are popular at times here.
But the Word was WITH God.[3 verses]Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,17:29) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 09 2009,12:06) Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,12:28) NIck………Jesus was conceived in the mind of GOD and brought forth at the proper time through Mary. GOD knew all along what he was going to do from the very foundation of the earth He Knew. It was GOD'S plan all along to perfect mankind and Jesus was Just the First to achieve that goal from among man Kind, a prototype so to speak, the first in GOD'S Plan to achieve that goal. Jesus did (NOT) preexist His berth other then in the mind AND PURPOSE OF GOD, He came into(BEING) when he was born through Mary's womb. The spirit of Antichrist is to think Jesus preexisted and did not come into (BEING) in the flesh, this false teaching alters the whole purpose of understanding GOD Plan for MAN KIND, by removing Jesus from our (EXACT) LIKENESS. It has its origins in Gnostic pagan thought. gene
Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
And this disproves Christ's preexistance how? “Gennao” is speaking about His origin according to the flesh and not His whole ontology. Jesus Himself claimed to be both the ROOT and OFFSPRING of David. Jesus said that He was David's Lord. David called Messiah “my Lord” indicating that he knew Him.Chew on the “root” and “offspring” idea for a while. Where did you study Greek? Did you earn or buy your degree?
thinker
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root [rhiza] and the offspring [genos] of David, [and] the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16He is simply saying he was born from the lineage of David.
He is speaking metaphorically of that which springs from a “root,” a shoot, said of offspring, see Rom 15:12; Rev 5:5, for examples.
Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rhiza: A root, that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot, metaph: offspring, progeny.
Genos: Kindred, offspring, family, born, stock, tribe, nation.
You provided no proof of pre-existance.
And yes I bought my degrees, you know any who receive theirs for free?
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