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Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,00:52) T8……Jesus was a very blessed and Foreordained Person. please explain in what way was He rich then, was it money, a already eternal life, how was he rich, Does God give money to angles and material riches , what riches did he give up for us if not his destined position as King and Lord granted him by the Father before he was ever born. I still believe his riches were is his Birthright and PREDESTINATION. He set that aside and lived in His humanity and compassion as more important then the riches of the other things that were his. And as it Showed you before< in the Greek it says He is (Existing) present tense now in the form of GOD, not Existed (past tense). Check it out. IMO gene
Hi Gene,
Just want to interject something that could help answer your question.I think that you have a different understanding than I do of this verse but from my point of view, the Son had a type of “glory” before coming in the flesh which would definitely be of great value.
John 17:5
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASUBlessings,
KathiAnother thought Gene,
Look at what the Psalmist says:Ps 84:10
10 For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand outside. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God Than dwell in the tents of wickedness.
NASUThe Son gave up being in the actual presence of the Father to come to earth…His prize was to return to that presence.
John 14:28-31
28 “You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
29 “Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.
30 “I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
NASUYLT, Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth — to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity
Acts 26:22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come– 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
The spirit of Christ that existed during the time of Moses, was the KNOWLEDGE of the MAN Jesus who would one day come and die on the cross. Christ’s COMING was established before TIME BEGAN! Scripture never shows the existence of some sort of immortal son Christ following people around, teaching and instructing them. Christ existing BEFORE as the PROMISE of the HUMAN that would COME, to say that Christ existed and CAME BEFORE as something other than the flesh is IMO PURE ANTIChrist doctrine.
Ac 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Ac 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
Hebrews 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, ]even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
The God of Abraham was NOT Jesus, Jesus was God’s SERVANT, of whom God promised before time began He would bring forth into the world. To say that YHWH brought forth CHRIST FIRST as some immortal spirit son, is IMO pure ANTIChrist doctrine.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Jesus NEVER proclaims himself to be YHWH his FATHER. Jesus proclaims that he is THE CHRIST, the MAN that was PROMISED BEFORE TIME. Jesus never proclaims himself to be some immortal spirit son that became flesh. Jesus proclaims himself to be the MAN who’s coming forth was established from the days of antiquity.
Jesus is the beginning, the firstborn of the DEAD. YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth and He created it through or rather BECAUSE OF CHRIST, and CHRIST means CHRIST, not inference for a god son or immortal son.
Hi Jodi,
The fact that Jesus was a man by the definition of scripture says nothing of his unique origins.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2009,05:38) Hi Jodi,
The fact that Jesus was a man by the definition of scripture says nothing of his unique origins.The fact that Jesus was created at a specific time with specific genes under the DIRECT Will and Power of YHWH from a PROMISE that existed before Time began, says EVERYTHING about his unique origins.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 06 2009,08:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2009,05:38) Hi Jodi,
The fact that Jesus was a man by the definition of scripture says nothing of his unique origins.The fact that Jesus was created at a specific time with specific genes under the DIRECT Will and Power of YHWH from a PROMISE that existed before Time began, says EVERYTHING about his unique origins.
Where does it say that Jesus was created. It actually says that through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. .Secondly, it says that he partook of flesh. That he was rich and become poor. That he existed in the form of God and emptied himself and partook of flesh and humbled himself in obedience to the point of death.
He is now with the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
I take it you disagree. If so, then your disagreement is not with me. I only quote scripture.
Jesus partook of creation. He wasn't created 2000 or so years ago.
T8……Peter said Jesus was foreordained, why would he say that if Jesus preexisted, when a person is foreordained the means He did not exist at the foreordaining. Like Cyrus and Jeremiah also the were Foreordained but did not exist until they were born. You have yet to show any reason for GOD to Kill a preexisting SON and then allow him to be put to death again. It is illogical that GOD would do that.
It would prove nothing to us as Human beings. GOD'S plan from the beginning was for Man to come into a Father Son relationship with Mankind, and He showed it by a Human being born from the root of David as Davids offspring a ordinary human being, not a reincarnated one. Nothing you have posted proves Jesus' preexistence as a BEING of some kind, there is (NO) Proof of His preexistence in Scripture anywhere, If there is what was His name and His position and rank in the Heavenly realm. Jesus did not act like a person who preexisted and was reborn at his impending death, He acted as any ordinary human being would, not as one who had experienced death and rebirth before. Not to mention What would that prove to Us if GOD took a already Perfect Person and he walked Perfectly Here, O well that is what you would expect a perfect person to do right, where would be the big test then, i mean he was already perfect before he even came here right.
That would show us nothing and we honestly could (NOT) identify ourselves with him because he would have not been truly (exactly) like us in (every) way. The theology of Jesus' preexistence came from Gnostic religions and Trinitarians, and it separates us from Christ Jesus' likeness. It is as false as the teaching of the TRINITY. Believe what Moses Said, God would bring forth a Prophet (LIKE HIM) from among their (brethren). He did not say an already existing person did He, but would come into existence from there brethren.
Even the Jew were expecting a Human man Just like them from there brethren, not a incarnate human being of any kind. T8 this teaching is just another of the false teaching of the Whore Church among many other false teaching also. God Created or Begot a SON through the women Mary and He perfected HIM by His Spirit in Him, giving US and example of what he can do for US also. Jesus said whosoever (overcomes ) (EVEN as I HAVE) you see there is no special preexistence value He Had , Just a FOREORDAINED destiny given him after he was MANIFESTED or BORN, as he grew in wisdom and knowledge and stature. Jesus was the First Man GOD (PERFECTED) from among MAN, not some preexisting demigod or super Being. Just an ordinary man from the root and offspring of DAVID, as Scripture says. IMO
gene
I am bringing this up, becaue t8 had a good post and other did disagree, and me did not, over 500 posts
IreneGreat posts Jodi-Lee! I think I John 2: 2 & 3 are really simple truths to latch onto: “…every spirit [prophecy] that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit [prophecy] that confesseth not the Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-christ, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
To say that he came into existence as a spirit- being first, and then later infused himself into Mary's body to be conceived and born in the flesh, is to speak confusion. (It's even difficult to explain with language such a contrivance!)
But it's not hard to believe in God's awesome working; His bringing about a miraculous conception by creating life in Mary's womb. The “Genesis of Jesus” is clearly laid out in Matthew 1:18 by the word gennao (which means origin and is translated, “birth” in this verse).
Grace & peace,
Pat
GT…………Indeed all who assume Jesus preexisted are denying He came into (being) in the Flesh, because they are saying he preexisted his Berth, and this (IS) the Spirit of Antichrist , John was relating to, and it started at the time of John and is indeed the source of much confusion today also.
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2009,06:48) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 06 2009,08:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2009,05:38) Hi Jodi,
The fact that Jesus was a man by the definition of scripture says nothing of his unique origins.The fact that Jesus was created at a specific time with specific genes under the DIRECT Will and Power of YHWH from a PROMISE that existed before Time began, says EVERYTHING about his unique origins.
Where does it say that Jesus was created. It actually says that through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. .Secondly, it says that he partook of flesh. That he was rich and become poor. That he existed in the form of God and emptied himself and partook of flesh and humbled himself in obedience to the point of death.
He is now with the Father in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
I take it you disagree. If so, then your disagreement is not with me. I only quote scripture.
Jesus partook of creation. He wasn't created 2000 or so years ago.
You are also interpreting scripture. That is where the disagreement is.Does Scripture state Moses was created? What about King Saul? King David?
I did not check but I am sure there is many it simply remains quiet on.
I do know this that according to a couple of scriptures Jesus was conceived in Mary. I am not sure what the Greek word that was translated “conceived” is in Matthew 1:20 but in Luke 2:21 it is “Sullambano” which appears to otherwise mean to grab.
Here is a passage from Isaiah 49 that I believe is a foretelling of Jesus since he is the one who rescue the 12 tribes of Israel.
Isaiah 49:5(KJV) reads:
Quote And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
If I am correct then Jesus was formed in Mary's womb.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,12:11) Kerwin,
Do you think that the spirit of a man is “formed in the womb?”
That is a fairly tough question. I know from biology that we inherit life from both our mother and our father and I believe in some areas of scripture life is called spirit. I also believe we inherit a corrupt spirit from our parents. In both cases the cycle was started when God breathed life into Adam.Jesus is an exception. This is possibly because of his miraculous conception. I believe God gave him a new spirit making him the prototype of those who would be.
Please do not confuse soul with spirit as by spirit I mean the essential principle influencing the person. The soul would be the person themselves.
If you were asking about the soul then I am prone to believe that too is formed in your mother's womb.
Job 31:15(NIV) reads:
Quote Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?Kerwin……I believe we are simply brought into existence by our parents, and this DNA is combined in us. When GOD created Adam and Eve he installed in them the ability to procreate after themselves through the combinations of DNA, so all Human life is the same life as Adam and Eve, They were like many trees and animals able to continue their species. But the spirit (intellect) man acquire is from the world, they did not have it before berth it is acquire after berth,. With a few exceptions like Jeremiah, Cyrus, John the Baptist, and Jesus and a few others GOD was using for special purposes. It say GOD Knew Jeremiah while he was still in the womb and foreordained him.
One of the biggest Problem i see in scripture is not understanding what SPIRIT really is. Many think Spirit is a Being , but Spirit to me is simple our thought or intellects. It is the life in the being that animates it. This is what determines who and what we are. You might say it like this, Spirit is like a billion cups of water each contains some (intelligence of some kind) small bits of thoughts or knowledge of good and evil, of wisdom, of discernments, etc, they can be add to us or subtracted from us which enables us to change our thinking. These are what life is they give us awareness, so a man thinks so he is, and so God thinks so He is also. When these thoughts come into living Flesh the man becomes a Living Soul. A SOUL is a BODY + SPIRIT (intellect) added into it. He becomes a thinking Being as Spirit is added . But all Spirit (intellects) have always existed, there is no new Spirit, all knowledge already existed for eternity, we simple simulate them into our existence, some evil some good intellect, so the object is to eliminate the evil in our thinking and increase the good, and this can be done through introducing GOD'S Words or Spirits (intellects) into us , this causes a change in our behavior more and more as we grow in this understanding we become more and more like GOD, and less and less like Man, but this is a process and takes time to come about.
Once we understand the (ALL) good and (ALL) evil already existed , Humans do not (create) good and evil they acquire it from what already existed. Man want to thinks He create his Own good and evil so he tries to, but that is far from the truth He simply attaches to what was already existing in the first place, there is (NO) new thing under the sun. The Spirit (intellect) of (Truth) given to us by GOD, enables us to Break the bond of Sin and Change in our thinking it is the guidance system or rudder of the Ship so to speak. It both accuses us and defends us, it is the earnest of the Spirits of GOD, it it vital in order for us to come to true understanding in the sea of confusion we live in. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
G,
So we are born without a spirit?
Yet scripture says without a spirit we are dead[Jas2]So is everyone stillborn?
Nick……….You would have died if someone did not feed you and teach you to eat and take care of you until you acquired enough strength and knowledge to sustain yourself. So in that sense you are still born you are the same as a dead person you knew nothing the only thing keeping you alive was you the automatic process center of your brain causing you heart to pulse and your lungs to breath and other human being to care for you. But you had NO knowledge until after you were born and acquired it. John Said (ALL) that is in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life are (FROM) the World. We acquire this Spirit (intellect) from the world we were not born with it. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 08 2009,00:27) Nick……….You would have died if someone did not feed you and teach you to eat and take care of you until you acquired enough strength and knowledge to sustain yourself. So in that sense you are still born you are the same as a dead person you knew nothing the only thing keeping you alive was you the automatic process center of your brain causing you heart to pulse and your lungs to breath and other human being to care for you. But you had NO knowledge until after you were born and acquired it. John Said (ALL) that is in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life are (FROM) the World. We acquire this Spirit (intellect) from the world we were not born with it. IMO gene
GeneDo you believe babys in the womb have Spirit?
Your theology says no! Since you believe that Spirit is “intellect or thoughts”.
Babys do not have intellect do they? Blows a hole in your “intellect is Spirit” theology doesn't it?
Nick makes a valid point which you didn't address!
The body without the Spirit is dead!
WJ
Hi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,18:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2009,12:11) Kerwin,
Do you think that the spirit of a man is “formed in the womb?”
That is a fairly tough question. I know from biology that we inherit life from both our mother and our father and I believe in some areas of scripture life is called spirit. I also believe we inherit a corrupt spirit from our parents. In both cases the cycle was started when God breathed life into Adam.Jesus is an exception. This is possibly because of his miraculous conception. I believe God gave him a new spirit making him the prototype of those who would be.
Please do not confuse soul with spirit as by spirit I mean the essential principle influencing the person. The soul would be the person themselves.
If you were asking about the soul then I am prone to believe that too is formed in your mother's womb.
Job 31:15(NIV) reads:
Quote Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
Hi KW,
The spirit that God gave Adam is corrupt or has become corrupt and yet returns to God at death?[ecc12]Where do you find scriptural support for this odd idea?
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