Preexistence

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,13:32)

Hi Con, The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16] Are the mansions of Christ [jn14] within earth?

The mansions are in the New Jerusalem (Zion) where our redeemer is.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Has he come again?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Certainly these things “must shortly take place”[Rev1]
The souls of the slain and saved were seen under the heavenly altar.
So unless you know this is allegory we should see it as a vision of the future.

[Constitutionalist]

Hey, how come when I typed the word “New” it came out red in my posts?

[NickHassan]

Hi CON,
Site design

[NickHassan]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,08:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,13:32) Hi Con, The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16] Are the mansions of Christ [jn14] within earth? The mansions are in the New Jerusalem (Zion) where our redeemer is. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. Has he come again?

Hi Con,
The heavenly Jerusalem seems to come from the heavenly realms in Rev 21.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,08:48)

Hey, how come when I typed the word “New” it came out red in my posts?

Yeah that is weird. I haven't figured out why yet.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,07:24)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 04 2009,12:15) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,20:42) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,16:55) T8…………> notice it say the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from and the Spirit returns to GOD who Gave IT. Nothing else is mentioned there, Just a body (dust) and Spirit. I still believe that is a a LIVING SOUL IS , a BODY with SPIRIT added to it and that combination is what makes up a living Soul.  Would like more of your input on this and others also. gene That is possible Gene. But then you do run into some difficulty explaining how the souls of martyrs are under the throne of God and can speak or communicate. Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I don't think these guys have a body. No offense I see the spirits under the alter as a mere vision, nothing more and is used as a metephor, and it consists of those whom died from the beginning and those who are yet to die. Christian martyrs that cries out symbolically, from where it was shed, on the ground under the brazen altar of burnt offering/of the altar of incense, which represents the cross, which is to say on the Earth, not in heaven. Kinda like: Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; It is symbolic in my opinion.

Except that these souls are spoken of as not receiving the mark etc. They are spoken of as real identities and God is in the business of saving souls.

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,13:32)

Hi Con, The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16] Are the mansions of Christ [jn14] within earth?

[bold]The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16][/bold]

The gates of Hades [<- Grave] Hades is a Greek/Roman realm of the dead governed by the god Hades.

Now if your referring to Hades as the Grave then in my belief you are correct. At the resurrection those under the hand of salvation will not face the second death.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,14:29)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,08:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,13:32) Hi Con, The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16] Are the mansions of Christ [jn14] within earth? The mansions are in the New Jerusalem (Zion) where our redeemer is. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. Has he come again? Hi Con, The heavenly Jerusalem seems to come from the heavenly realms in Rev 21.

Yes it does.

[NickHassan]

Hi Con,
Hades is the place described by Jesus in Lk16

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2009,16:07)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,07:24) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 04 2009,12:15) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,20:42) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,16:55) T8…………> notice it say the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from and the Spirit returns to GOD who Gave IT. Nothing else is mentioned there, Just a body (dust) and Spirit. I still believe that is a a LIVING SOUL IS , a BODY with SPIRIT added to it and that combination is what makes up a living Soul.  Would like more of your input on this and others also. gene That is possible Gene. But then you do run into some difficulty explaining how the souls of martyrs are under the throne of God and can speak or communicate. Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I don't think these guys have a body. No offense I see the spirits under the alter as a mere vision, nothing more and is used as a metephor, and it consists of those whom died from the beginning and those who are yet to die. Christian martyrs that cries out symbolically, from where it was shed, on the ground under the brazen altar of burnt offering/of the altar of incense, which represents the cross, which is to say on the Earth, not in heaven. Kinda like: Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; It is symbolic in my opinion. Except that these souls are spoken of as not receiving the mark etc. They are spoken of as real identities and God is in the business of saving souls. 1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 2 Corinthians 5:8 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

1 Peter 1:9 English word Soul(s): Greek word: Psychē from Psychō: Meaning to breathe, to be alive, that in which there is life.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [Bold]life/lives[/Bold].

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

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Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Phil 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

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2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Paul is saying that should he die, he would sleep the sleep of death, and next see Jesus Christ after the resurrection. To Paul, however, the passing of time after his death would be as an instant, the blink of an eye, and his next thing he would know it would be the second coming, and the resurrection of all the righteous saints.

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John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When does Jesus receive us?

Jesus says it will be at His second coming, not at the moment of death.

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1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

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1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 1 Cor 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[NickHassan]

Hi Con,
Yes the saved soul sleeps till being awakened by the trumpet and the archangel's voice.
He meets with Jesus in the air alive in the Spirit of God and clothed in a new heavenly body

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,17:23)

Hi Con, Hades is the place described by Jesus in Lk16

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Hades is the place described by Jesus in Lk16

Yes He does, absolutely!

Do you believe this is a parable (the fifth in a series of parables,) or do you believe this to be literal?

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Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. If you believe this to be literal explain the following: Was the Rich Man a sinner? Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell? Are those in Heaven and Hell/Hades with bodies or are they spirit? Can they hear their screams? Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another? There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Just like the souls under the alter. Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!

Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends and family for all of eternity, would it not?

The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure.

The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it.

They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward.

The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20).

Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to.

So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham.

Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected.

It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.

The Bottom line:

Like the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30), the unprofitable servant who squanders what the Lord has given him will be lost.

Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God's favor. Wealth is simply not an indicator of one's salvation.

The parable describes a great fixed gulf between the saved and the lost. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny, and it simply cannot be changed after death.

Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one being raised from the dead.

There is a lesson in this, do you see it?

[NickHassan]

Hi Con,
Yes most who come here cannot stomach Lk16 and allegorise it.
But it is of the teaching of Jesus.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,18:28)

Hi Con, Yes most who come here cannot stomach Lk16 and allegorise it. But it is of the teaching of Jesus.

What did Jesus do after the parable?

He went and raised Lazerus!

Now that I think about it, after Lazerus had been dead several days, and Jesus brought him back to life again, why no account from Lazerus about where he had been, if he would have been in the Greek hell then he would have expressed his gratitude, and if he would have been in heaven would he not be a little angry being plucked out of God's presense? Or maybe he was just dead and in the tomb.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,07:17)

T8……….Jesus was rich by his birthright as the First begotten son of the Living GOD. He full well understood this,  He Knew who He was and His destiny, Yes he was rich indeed at berth. He laid that all aside and functioned as one of Us lowly humans who was not that fortunate as he was, and recognized our poverty of spirit and took compassion on us as one of His own brethren, he did not separate himself from us but fully related to us on ever level. And as a result he was laying aside his born birthright and destiny for our good, connecting with us in love and concern and compassion, in this way he was afflicted with our infirmities a true loving brother in every since of the word.

Sorry Gene, but it sounds like another excuse. You can excuse anything if you want to. After all, many give reasons why God doesn't exist because they don't want him to exist.

If he was rich and became poor, then I have to state the obvious.

He was born poor and lived as a poor person, and died as a poor person. You say his destiny is rich, and that is true, but then given your understanding it should say that even though he was poor, he became rich. Or at least it should say even though he was poor he was rich the whole time because of his destiny.

But it says, even though he was rich, he became poor.

Sorry Gene, but your explanation is completely insufficient.

He was rich, and became poor.

Likewise he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, and went to the glory he had with the Father before the world begun.

It is written, and there is no benefit to be had by denying it. Why waste your time denying the truth? Surely that is a very unwise thing to do.

[GeneBalthrop]

CT…….He was dead as a door knob. “When a man dies His thoughts Parish” Thats it, black out time never to return unless GOD the FATHER resurrects Him by giving him and new body and placing spirit back into it. Lazarus said nothing because he went no where he was dead as dead could be. IMO.

gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 05 2009,16:26)

What did Jesus do after the parable? He went and raised Lazerus! Now that I think about it, after Lazerus had been dead several days, and Jesus brought him back to life again, why no account from Lazerus about where he had been, if he would have been in the Greek hell then he would have expressed his gratitude, and if he would have been in heaven would he not be a little angry being plucked out of God's presense? Or maybe he was just dead and in the tomb.

Good point Constitutionalist.

But that took place before Jesus died for our sins and was raised.

Look what happened after that.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

And in the New Testament it is written:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (NIV)
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Is Paul saying I would prefer to be dead and not thinking?

I think that many do not understand that there are significant differences in the Old and New Testaments. Jesus death accomplished certain things and things are different as a result.

So now we come to 1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

It does say that the dead in Christ will rise first. So if it was all at the same time, why would the dead rise first?

NOTE: I will post this in an appropriate discussion if anyone wishes to discuss.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……Jesus was a very blessed and Foreordained Person. please explain in what way was He rich then, was it money, a already eternal life, how was he rich, Does God give money to angles and material riches , what riches did he give up for us if not his destined position as King and Lord granted him by the Father before he was ever born. I still believe his riches were is his Birthright and PREDESTINATION. He set that aside and lived in His humanity and compassion as more important then the riches of the other things that were his. And as it Showed you before< in the Greek it says He is (Existing) present tense now in the form of GOD, not Existed (past tense). Check it out. IMO

gene

[Proclaimer]

It says that he was rich and then became poor for our sakes. What you are proposing is no change at all. i.e., that he was born poor and lived as a poor person, and the whole time he had a rich destiny.

Can you see that what you are saying doesn't fit the pattern.

[Author]

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