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T8……….Revelations was (signified) If you look up that word , you will find it means (symbolized) So symbolically speaking John saw the souls of them that were killed for the word of God, but not literally. That is a major problem with Scripture, navigating through symbolic language to literial language. For instance GOD took Ezekiel to the valley of dead Bones and showed Him the (whole House of Israel) Symbolically, and He said “they say our bones are dried up our Hope is perished”> This is the last thought of a person when they died. Those thoughts still speaking in GODS Eyes. And also the (Lake of FIRE) you know as well as i, you cant literally cast the grave and death into a literial lake of fire, so this lake of fire is symbolically portrayed as a final judgement which does away with the need for death and the grave. Much of our understand (I) believe has been obscured by our lack of understand this symbolic language. It really does take GODS SPIRIT to figure much of scripture out. The souls of the martyrs of Christ are only being symbolically portrayed.
A Soul is a (complete) person who consists of a BODY and SPIRIT. I can't find where there is a body, soul, and Spirit, but only a body with spirit (intellect) in it. Jesus told us not to fear him who can destory our body and after that can do no more, but to fear (reverently respect) Him who can destory (BOTH) body and soul, in the (GRAVE). Notice here Jesus did (not) say , body, soul, (and) Spirit in the grave, why? because that part of Man, spirit, (his intellect) returns to him who gave it. Spirit does (NOT) die. But if it is not in a (BODY) it is unless if it is not in a BODY it can animate, and if it is in a body then you have a Soul, Body+ Spirit= Soul. IMO
peace ands love to you and yours……………gene
G,
The body rots in the grave and the spirit returns to God.
But the temporary home of the soul is the mansions of Christ or Hades.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,20:42) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,16:55) T8…………> notice it say the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from and the Spirit returns to GOD who Gave IT. Nothing else is mentioned there, Just a body (dust) and Spirit. I still believe that is a a LIVING SOUL IS , a BODY with SPIRIT added to it and that combination is what makes up a living Soul. Would like more of your input on this and others also. gene
That is possible Gene.But then you do run into some difficulty explaining how the souls of martyrs are under the throne of God and can speak or communicate.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.I don't think these guys have a body.
No offense I see the spirits under the alter as a mere vision, nothing more and is used as a metephor, and it consists of those whom died from the beginning and those who are yet to die.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2009,15:28) Quote Gene said: Quote Thinker ………..Why should He be an Heir if He created it all, it would be his anyway. Does it not say God does (ALL) things after the council of HIS (OWN) WILL, But Jesus said He came (NOT) to do HIS WILL But the WILL of HIM who SENT HIM. MY another trinitarian dilemma but i am sure you and WJ and CA have some (MYSTERY RELIGION) explanation for this though. Face it thinker nothing you people produce make any sense at all. DUMP the TRINITY GARBAGE THINKER. gene
Gene,
Paul said about Christ, “Though He was rich, yet He became poor for your sakes that you might become rich through His poverty.” No “dilemna” Gene. He was never rich in this world. So He must have been rich in His pre-existance.Again, no dilemna for me Gene. The dilemna is yours.
thinker
Please explain Gene.
T8……….Jesus was rich by his birthright as the First begotten son of the Living GOD. He full well understood this, He Knew who He was and His destiny, Yes he was rich indeed at berth. He laid that all aside and functioned as one of Us lowly humans who was not that fortunate as he was, and recognized our poverty of spirit and took compassion on us as one of His own brethren, he did not separate himself from us but fully related to us on ever level. And as a result he was laying aside his born birthright and destiny for our good, connecting with us in love and concern and compassion, in this way he was afflicted with our infirmities a true loving brother in every since of the word.Non of this had to do with any Preexistence at all. IMO
peace and lov eto you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 04 2009,12:15) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,20:42) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,16:55) T8…………> notice it say the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from and the Spirit returns to GOD who Gave IT. Nothing else is mentioned there, Just a body (dust) and Spirit. I still believe that is a a LIVING SOUL IS , a BODY with SPIRIT added to it and that combination is what makes up a living Soul. Would like more of your input on this and others also. gene
That is possible Gene.But then you do run into some difficulty explaining how the souls of martyrs are under the throne of God and can speak or communicate.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.I don't think these guys have a body.
No offense I see the spirits under the alter as a mere vision, nothing more and is used as a metephor, and it consists of those whom died from the beginning and those who are yet to die.
Christian martyrs that cries out symbolically, from where it was shed, on the ground under the brazen altar of burnt offering/of the altar of incense, which represents the cross, which is to say on the Earth, not in heaven.Kinda like:
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;It is symbolic in my opinion.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 04 2009,12:24) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 04 2009,12:15) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,20:42) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,16:55) T8…………> notice it say the dust (body) returns to the ground it came from and the Spirit returns to GOD who Gave IT. Nothing else is mentioned there, Just a body (dust) and Spirit. I still believe that is a a LIVING SOUL IS , a BODY with SPIRIT added to it and that combination is what makes up a living Soul. Would like more of your input on this and others also. gene
That is possible Gene.But then you do run into some difficulty explaining how the souls of martyrs are under the throne of God and can speak or communicate.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.I don't think these guys have a body.
No offense I see the spirits under the alter as a mere vision, nothing more and is used as a metephor, and it consists of those whom died from the beginning and those who are yet to die.
Christian martyrs that cries out symbolically, from where it was shed, on the ground under the brazen altar of burnt offering/of the altar of incense, which represents the cross, which is to say on the Earth, not in heaven.Kinda like:
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;It is symbolic in my opinion.
Also if it were deemed literal it would be kinda like all the dead saints literally going to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).I see it as symbolic.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,07:09) G,
The body rots in the grave and the spirit returns to God.
But the temporary home of the soul is the mansions of Christ or Hades.
Nick……So your logic understands it this way , now where is scripture to support it. Because Jesus said he went to prepare a place for them does not mean they are there yet. That is a assumption on your part. you have never shown a SOUL apart from a BODY. If you believe that then post the scripture that proves it. IMOgene
G,
None could follow him till he went to Hades and burst out of it's gates.The word can divide between soul and spirit[Heb4]
CT……….you have it right they are symbolical and metaphorically represented As many thing in scripture are. It is good that you understand that. Some here take everything as literial and are shipwrecked and stalled in their thinking. Who can literally go into someones bosom. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
G,
So you too have that right because you have gained superior understandings?
But are they not gnostic understandings?Hi Con,
God can call the places of waiting before His Son came what He will, this time reminding us it is of faith as with Abraham.But the place of the living is separated from the place of the dead.
Nick……….No more then your thought are Gnostic also. You believe more like Gnostic's the i do Nick. You do believe in Jesus preexistence as they did also. We need to come (ALL) the way out Not part way. “O” and by the way Jesus only went to the grave and would have stayed there for ever if the FATHER did NOT raise HIM UP. He did not himself burst our of anything as you put it. IMO
gene
G,
Hades could not hold Jesus[acts 2.27] any more than it can hold Peter or any other living stone of God.Gnostics believe what is not in scripture but from special personal revelations-like your intellect god.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,12:34) Hi Con,
Do we have the right to assign certain things we cannot understand to allegory?
Straw man, that would be like saying what we cant understand in allegory then we conclude it is literal.Best thing is to put into context with the chapter/book when in doubt.
What facts do we know?
John had a vision.
John saw before him a book or scroll sealed with seven seals.
As Christ opened each seal (Rev. 5:5), John was shown a preview of an event that would happen in the future hereafter [4:1]. Since John was in the spirit as the seven seals were opened (vs. 2), the events he witnessed were not actually occurring at that time.
They were heavenly previews of things that would happen later on earth.
Upon the opening of the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9), John saw under at the base of the altar the souls of them that were slain. Christ had shown the meaning of the seven seals when He was on earth.
The fifth seal symbolizes the coming time of Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:9-28), an event that will occur on earth. “rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Souls under the altar represent those awaiting the future martyrdom of saints.
Pretty simple.
Hi Con,
The gates of Hades cannot overcome the church.[mt 16]
Are the mansions of Christ [jn14] within earth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,13:22) Hi Con,
So you say.
But can such imaginary souls call out to God?
Can Goats destroy stars? (Daniel's vision).Can pigs fly? (Peters vision).
Will there be lion headed horse in the future? (John's vision)
Every vision in scripture (Old and new) are of futuristic events and times, none were in real time.
Search them all yourself.
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