- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ July 05 2007,02:49) Quote (kenrch @ July 05 2007,01:34) 942767,July wrote:Hi Brother Isaiah 1:18:
You say:
Quote In the analogy the writer used: Moses = House.
Jesus = Builder of that house (Moses)The fact that Yeshua is “son over his own house” does not invalidate what was written previously….
Blessings brother
Is 1:18If I am understanding you and WJ correctly you believe that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person and was the creator of mankind and of the heavens and the earth. (Correct me if I have misunderstood)
I gather that this is what you are saying by what you say to t8 below:
Quote Hi t8,
Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:But the following scripture states that Jesus is the builder of the house and not the creator:
Quote Hebrews 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Jesus has builded the house in that he has obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. Because of this we also as born again believers have the spirit of God dwelling within us. The house that he built is the spiritual house.
Quote 1 Co 15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
And we who are born again believers have the Holy Ghost but are in the process we have not yet arrived and so, the below scripture states:
Quote Ephesians 2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
Quote Phil 3:20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Now I have repeatedly stated that Jesus is God in that He is the express image of God's person as Hebrews 1:3 indicates but he is also God in that he has been exalted by God to the position of Lord over all of heaven and earth. And so the following scriptures indicated why God has exalted him to this postion.
Quote Hebrews 1:8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Quote Phil 2:7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
He is worthy of all honor and glory and I love him and obey him because of my love for him, but the following scriptures indicate in the sense that you indicate.
Quote 1 Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Quote 1 Co 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Now when Jesus was on earth he asked his disciples:
Quote Matt. 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?
16:14
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist *: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15
He saith unto them, But whom say
ye that I am ?
16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.And so, as God's Son and His Christ he was in the form of God at that time but the scripture states:
Quote Phil 2:5
* Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.I believe that this to what the foregoing scripture refers. Please show me by scripture how he existed in the form of God prior to his advent on earth.
And the following verse states:
Quote Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God) made the worlds;And then the scripture states:
Quote Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool *God made the worlds through him, and so in this way he laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of his hands. God had forseen that he would obey without sin even unto death on the cross, and thus accomplish God's objective.
Also,
Quote Re 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.God Bless
94,If you do not add to scripture this is what the Gospel is about.
The WORD became flesh.
Jesus the Son of man born with the Word. Jesus giving Himself so all could be as He is a child of God.
Surely this is the simplicity of Christ:
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Thank you for submitting to the Spirit and Word of God.
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Brother Ken:What really matters is that hopefully we know that Jesus God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ came in the flesh and that he exists as our Lord and Saviour at the right hand of God Almighty and that we have been reconciled to God through him having had all of our sins forgiven, and that we are striving to obey his commandments out of our love for him. Striving, I say, because we do make mistakes, and without the blood to wash away our sins when we do make them we could not be saved.
I know that God's Word is true because His Spirit dwells within me testifying of its reality.
I am not sure that we accomplish much through these seemly endless debates where people apparently want to show their superiour knowledge of the scriptures, and are not approaching a topic trying to learn the truth even if it means that we have to swallow our pride when we find that we have erred.
Quote 2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.God Bless you and your family brother Ken
94,I believe their is a reason for everything. Even you being here on heaven net.
Ken
Quote I appreciate your opinion, David. But that is what we have, isn't it? Our opinions.
Not really.
This is what I have:
MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”JOHN 1:14,15
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)””
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:58
“Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”And now, what do you have?
You say we both have opinions. I don't see it that way. (The only thing in here that could even be taken any other way is Proverbs.) I will wait for you to tell me what you have, other than an opinion.
Quote Answer: Your opinion versus my opinion. One man's truth is another man's opinion – go figure.
And yet, only one of us can be right.
Jesus can not both have pre-existed and not pre-existed. It is one or the other.Therefore, one of us is using opinion. The other is representing the truth.
But when I look at it from every angle, there is only one of us who is using any scriptures.I would really love to go through all these scriptures one by one.
MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
Your thoughts?david > let's take one subject at a time. let's take the subject of Jesus being called the (WORD) which most trenitarians us a proof text as Jesus being very God Himself.
i challange you to simply show me where the name Jesus or the son is in this text.
i challange you to show me any proof the orginal text was properly translated with reguards to the use of the uper case and lower case usage of the word (word).i challenge you to show me why would Jesus say the word's he spoke were not his, if he was the WORD as you trenitarians say.
let's get this straight before going off to anything else.
just seeking truth…….Gene???
Hi,
Christ was the WORD, the greatest prophet, who spoke fully the words of God.
John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.And he is the bread of Life, the words spoken being soul food unto eternity.
nick > you are making the word out to be a person if that was what John was wanting to say he would simply said inthe beginning was Jesus or son and the son or Jesus was with God and was God.
it's one thing to speak the words God gave him and another to say he, the person Jesus was the word.
the scriptures plainly say's God spoke to us in times past through the prophets has in these latter day's spoken to us through a son.
so the question is who spoke was it the prophet or God it say's God spoke, so does that make the prophets God, if God were to speak through you would that make you a God, and it didn't make Jesus a
God either.again why did Jesus say the words he spoke were not his, if indeed he was the WORD as trinitarians say.
sounds like a counterdiction of words if you take the trenitarian position.
why do you want to rob God The Father by crediting Jesus for something the Father was doing.
Didn't Jesus say he could do (NOTHING) by his self.
Jesus who exists (now) in the form of God does not think to rob God to make himself equal with God. ( like the trenitarians try to make him).
whats your understanding of this …Gene.
Hi Gene,
John did say
“the Word became flesh and dwelled among us and we saw his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”Hi nick.> nick i want to ask you a simple question
is it possible for a word to actually become flesh, i believe no word can become flesh. but a word can be in flesh and God's words were in Jesus but that does not make him the word, but a man who spoke (God's Words) to us and thats why he said the words he was speaking weren't his, you see they were God's words not his.
when we atribute God's words to Jesus instead of the one who gave him the words we are robbing GOD of His glory and in away putting Jesus above God the Father this is not what Jesus ever did, he never robed God by trying to make himself equal to God.
this is what trenitarians do, they raise Jesus to the same position as God The Father.
they elevate Jesus to the position of God Himself something Jesus never did.
Hi Gene,
If “the word” is a spirit being then it is very possible to partake of flesh as man.
Angels do so it seems as many have entertained them without knowing.Hi Gene,
Christ is the wisdom of God.
That does not rob God of glory.
He is the truth but that does not make God untrue.
He is the Life but God is still the living God.hi nick > while Jesus could certanly have God's words in him via the Holy Spirit which was the Father in Him who does the works just as he said, but he himself could never be the word, but he certanly could speak them.
this was done by the Prophets also as it plainly say's.
Jesus alway's glorfied the Father and showed complete submission to Him in many seriptures.
you said Christ is the wisdom of God, notice it says Christ is why not Jesus, because Christ infers the (christos) which is the Holy Spirit or better said , the Christos (holy spirit) is the wisdom of God, and this anotining was in Jesus.but it was not him.
another place this error shows up is where it say's , that Christ was the rock that fallowed them inthe wilderness.
It should read it was the Christos or anointing that followed them in the wilderness not Jesus as trenitarians would like you to believe.
there is no way anyone can put Jesus to the position of God without robbing God of glory, something Jesus never did.
i hope this helps….Gene
Hi gene,
I agree Jesus Christ was the perfect vessel for the nature and powers of God to be shown through. He was ascribed the name of the Word.But the Word was with God in the beginning.
Hi nick,,> If you profess Jesus was in the beginning then you must profess He is almighty God Himself. because the text goes on to say the word was God.
and if that was John's point he would have Just said Jesus is almighty God, if that was what he was driving at, he would not have beat around the bush, would he.
the translators were trenitarians and in many place used upper case letters when they should have use lower case letters and in this way they were forcing the text to mean a person instead of simple meannings of the text.
most all the confusion in the bible texts were brought on by the trentarian translators and thats why we still have so many different translation today.
we need to be crtitical readers and use the earlyest original Greek/Latin/Armeic text possable.
let me give you another example, remember when Jesus said it would be harder of a richman to inter the kingom of God than for a camel to go the an eye of a needle.
the word for used for camel in the original Aremic language means (rope) so Jesus was saying that it would be easer for a rope to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom. now dosen't that make more sense.
our bibles are full of errors like using the definet article (the) in many places where it is not in the in original greek text.
we need to be very criticual of what we are reading… gene
Hi Gene,
Why?
The sons of God were with God too when the foundations of the world were being laid[Jb38]Hi nick…there is no disagreement about Jesus being a son of God. I don't however believe he prexisted as a being before his birth, i believe he presisted in the plan and will of God though. my contengency about the word (WORD) .if you say the WORD was with God then you have to say the Word was God.
you can't have one without the other. you either bare saying Jesus is God or not God Himself. which is it.
let's try to stay on subject please….Gene
Hi Gene,
Three verses say the Word was with God, one says he WAS God.
We know he was not the God he was with surely?hi nick… why do you believe the three and not the other. and if you don't believe he was God, then why beleive he was the word and somehow a word can become a flesh.
if you read the text using the word(word) for what a word is the whole thing will make sense. a word is not flesh nether indeed can be. A word can be in a flesh person but can never be the person. Jesus plainly said the words weren't his how then could he be the word then.
it's my bed time ill check out your answer tomorrow… gene
Hi Gene,
I believe all but the one must be read according to the proven three.
A word is not flesh.
The Word became flesh.Hi Nick,,> why did Jesus say the words he spoke weren't his.
if he was the Word then the words would be his wouldn't they. John was not stupid if he was meanning Jesus he would have simply said it was Jesus he was talking about.
this whole thing about the (word) meaning somthing other then the simple meanning of what the word, word means in the text comes from trenitarian Idology and the word was translated that way to force the text.
thanks…Gene
acertainchap,,> the biggest lie ever told people seeking God The Father is that Jesus is God Himself. This idology came about by fallen or apostasised Christanity, it creates the Man of Sin spoken of by the apostle Paul.
this whole idology of turnning Jesus a man like you and me into a God Man and saying he is a God who sits in the temple of God as God, creates the man of sin,and they (trenitarians)
are the ones who created this idology, creating another God is idolatry.Jesus himself will destory this LIE at his return, just as it say's in 2 thes,2 , with the breath of his mouth i.e, his words.
Jesus being a true God is the BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD.
the blessing of God is on all who can see this.
your friend ….Gene.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
