Preexistence

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ July 25 2009,22:03)

I make no apologies for believing in the following: Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” Hebrews 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. 1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. I am also wary of people who systematically try to explain all these verses away by using wisdom outside of scripture itself. Most explanations I have heard seem quite lame and I prefer to believe the scriptures as they are written.

Hi brother T8,
All those scriptures often quoted by many here to prove the preexistence and were disproved by others in this thread many times. Many of our brothers and sisters who being non-trinitarians still insist on preexistence of Jesus. I don't know why they want it along with nontrinitarian belief. As our brother Gene rightly said it only proves Gnosticism than any biblical truth. It can only possible in some mythology but not in realistic sense. If yu want please read the book “Born Before All Time? The Dispute over Christ's Origin” by Karl-Josef Kuschel.

The summary of the book is like this:

The question mark is Kuschel's warning that he is about to launch an attack on this classic creedal confession, which he executes on two fronts. The idea of the pre-existence of Christ as the divine Son of God makes no sense in terms of the modem scientific view of the world, and in light of modern critical exegesis it has no firm basis in the New Testament.

Kuschel's quarrel with the church's traditional belief in the pre-existent Son of God unfolds like a drama in three parts. Part one is a trialogue between Adolf von Harnack, Karl Barth and Rudolf Bultmann. Part two deals with the biblical foundations of the idea of pre-existence in light of modern critical scholarship. Part three assesses the status of the belief in Jesus Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God the Father in contemporary Protestant and Catholic thought. Kuschel ends with an epilogue summarizing his own constructive position that he has built into the course of the narrative.

Kuschel sets the stage with a lengthy and sympathetic treatment of Harnack's criticism of the classical trinitarian and christological dogmas of the ancient church. For Harnack the dogmas were the result of mixing Greek philosophical ideas into the simple gospel taught by Jesus. Harnack said: “I do not understand how one can hold the doctrine of pre-existence … This doctrine comes from pagan philosophy.” In this respect he was following the lead of Schleiermacher and Ritschl, and for the most part Kuschel agrees with the negative verdict of these classical Protestant liberals.

Barth reappropriated the ancient church's Christology of pre-existence and made it a pillar of his trinitarian dogmatics. But he did it with a difference. For Barth there can be no eternal logos separate from the man Jesus of Nazareth. There is no Jesus apart from the Logos and no Logos apart from Jesus (no Logos asarkos) who leads an independent eternal life of his own prior to his incarnate union with the person of Jesus Christ. While acknowledging Barth's brilliant critique of liberal Protestantism's glorification of Jesus as a religious and moral genius and its lack of a real Christology, Kuschel believes that Barth went too far in trying to rehabilitate such ideas as homoousios, anhypostasis and perichoresis in order to reconstruct dogmatics on the doctrine of the Trinity.

What Kuschel protests is the notion of any real internal and eternal distinctions or relations in God. These would, he believes, violate biblical monotheism. By drawing on the latest results of critical exegesis Kuschel thinks he can show that the notion of any ontological distinctions in God is alien to the Bible. For this reason, he opposes the new trinitarian constructions of Pannenberg, Jungel and Moltmann. All three follow Barth and even Rahner in their different ways in holding that within the Godhead there are inner personal relations between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…..

Most questionable of all is Kuschel's prevailing assumption that Christianity will win more converts the more it surrenders its commitment to the high Christology in the New Testament, the church fathers and the ecumenical councils of the church. For example, Kuschel contends that we will have more promising interreligious dialogues with Jews and Muslims if we can assure them that we no longer believe and teach what we have mistakenly confessed for nearly 2,000 years about the Triune God and Jesus Christ. If only we will go back to the Christology of the synoptic Gospels and the Ebionites and start over, so to speak, we will overcome the needless offense caused by the high Christology of the catholic and orthodox traditions of Christian faith. Those steeped in the history of modern Protestant theology cannot help having a distinct sense of deja vu.

Please think sensibly even a Catholic is willing to accept the mistakes of the holy fathers why not a nontrinitarian like you?

Peace and love to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 08 2009,17:13)

John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me. We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life. Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life. I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become? Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN! Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone! There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human.  Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God.  Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God. The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.   Other scriptures show this to be true as well. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected. Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.  34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, and it actually gives me goose bumps, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us. David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood. The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting at the right hand of God. 1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.   1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality. Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed. The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality. This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.

To All…………I affirm again Jodi has properly stated the preexistence issue. Jesus never existed before His berth on earth. He was in the plan of GOD from the beginning. It was GOD'S plan to make Man in His image, Jesus was the first to achieve it. We will be also in the resurrection as He is. “For we shall see Him (AS) He is”. This is our hope for a resurrection and the same glory Jesus has.

Jodi……it is obvious , your given revelation of GOD to all who have the SPIRIT of TRUTH in them. Keep up the (good) work.

peace and love to you and yours Sis………………….gene

[Cindy]

I find it very ironic that when t8 gives us such good, prove of the preexisting of Jesus, it does not matter, those who do not believe in it, will not learn from it.  Scriptures plainly say that Jesus was with the Father before the world was. Just like the Trinity Doctrine People who believe in it are blind about it. Prove or not. I have tried to do so with our Family. No way, if your blind your blind. Advice to you that do not believe what I am saying or what t8 said, study it with an open mind. Thank you t8.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….question is HOW was He with the FATHER. IN the plan and will of GOD , or as a being as you and T8 assert. No where does Jesus say He preexisted His Berth on earth as a Being of some KIND< and if so produce the Proof, like what was his name and what was his position and show us some activity of some kind. GOD the FATHER said in Isaiah He created everything (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF), you preexistences have never cleared that hurdle Yet. Saying the US means Jesus is an assumption not a proved fact. Many assumptions cause errors in doctrines and teachings. It's better not to assume anything but show clear proof, which i have not seen by Preexistences or Trinitarians. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………There is (NO) specific Statement that Jesus Preexisted His Berth as a HUMAN OR ANY OTHER BEING. What he wrote can be taken in different ways. So why try to teach it as doctrine then when Jesus and the apostles never did. Jesus never said He Preexisted HIS berth as a (Being) of any kind. These are all part of the false teachings of the TRINITY theology, taught by the Apostate Churches, that we are told to come out of. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………gene

[Cindy]

Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that. Are you going to deny that? I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus. So you call Scripture false?
That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God. And you know they do not believe that.
Peace and Love Irene

Peace and Love Irene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38)

Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene

Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus

[bodhitharta]

Jeremiah 1:4-6 (King James Version)

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Did Jerimiah also pre-exist ? God said he knew him before God formed him in the belly.

[GeneBalthrop]

DB ………….Exactly they will say Jesus did, but deny Jeremiah or John the baptist or Cyrus did even though the language is the same. No where has Jesus ever said He preexisted His berth on earth as a preexisting being of any kind. They force the text to say that, but there is no specific text that says he preexisted His berth. Peter says that He was foreordained (planed),(BUT) was Manifested in our time. No where does he say Jesus was manifested before our time as they would have us believe. This teaching is only part of the Trinitarian Ideology and is a false teaching. We are told to come out of these false teachings of the Apostate Churches. IMO

peac and love to you and yours…………………gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 27 2009,21:18)

All those scriptures often quoted by many here to prove the preexistence and were disproved by others in this thread many times.

You or others may disprove these scriptures in your mind, but a scripture is scripture.

If a person deletes anything that contradicts a predefined doctrine, then they are not open to the truth.

What happens with some people is that they hear a doctrine that seems to make sense and believe it. Later on, difficult scriptures come their way and one man humbles himself and says, “this seems to contradict what I believe, therefore I will ask God that he will show me the better way”.

Another person says, “I am not going to change my doctrine. I have invested too much into it and these difficult scriptures can be explained away”.

One of these men have a problem with pride and will argue their doctrine so as to try and prove to himself that he is right.

[Lightenup]

Gene,
What you and Adam and others don't seem to want to deal with is the Greek grammar and the purpose of the active voice in Greek verbs…you are in denial about that, IMO. You don't understand it and you just seem to gloss right over it because you don't understand it. I would recommend that you get some Greek grammar education especially about the peculiarities of the Greek verbs. That would clear a lot of things up for you.

God bless,
Kathi

[Cindy]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16)

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus

Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her.
Irene
Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene

Hi Irene

The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church.

There is no Trinity without Pre-existence!

WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07)

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ

And why wouldn't there? I do not believe in a trinity, but believe in the preexisting of Jesus. One doesn't have to do with the other. That is just IMO of course I could be wrong, it was 25 years ago, when we belonged to that Chrch, and only God knows for sure.
Peace and Irene

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07)

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ

You know what makes it interesting is that t8 and others believe in the preexisting of Jesus and do not believe in the trinity either. So why would one have to do with the other?
IMO nothing. It has been 25 years ago since we believed in the trinity, and who knows what the Catholic Church believes now. And I do not believe that I ever taught our Children the preexisting of Jesus.
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,19:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ You know what makes it interesting is that t8 and others believe in the preexisting of Jesus and do not believe in the trinity either.  So why would one have to do with the other? IMO nothing. It has been 25 years ago since we believed in the trinity, and who knows what the Catholic Church believes now. And I do not believe that I ever taught our Children the preexisting of Jesus. Peace and Love Irene

Irene

There is no Trinitarian that does not believe In Jesus pre-existence as the Word that was with God and was God!

I do not see how you could have taught the Trinity and believe Jesus was God if he did not pre-exist coming in the flesh!

WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,11:06)

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ You know what makes it interesting is that t8 and others believe in the preexisting of Jesus and do not believe in the trinity either.  So why would one have to do with the other? IMO nothing. It has been 25 years ago since we believed in the trinity, and who knows what the Catholic Church believes now. And I do not believe that I ever taught our Children the preexisting of Jesus. Peace and Love Irene Irene There is no Trinitarian that does not believe In Jesus pre-existence as the Word that was with God and was God! I do not see how you could have taught the Trinity and believe Jesus was God if he did not pre-exist coming in the flesh! WJ

I know for certain that I did not teach the Preexisting of Jesus to our children. And why would I, we did not believe in it. I am sorry but I don't think I did. That is really all I can say about this. O.K. Like I said before, that was a new revelation for us, after we left the W.W.C. of God.
Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,19:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,11:06) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ You know what makes it interesting is that t8 and others believe in the preexisting of Jesus and do not believe in the trinity either.  So why would one have to do with the other? IMO nothing. It has been 25 years ago since we believed in the trinity, and who knows what the Catholic Church believes now. And I do not believe that I ever taught our Children the preexisting of Jesus. Peace and Love Irene Irene There is no Trinitarian that does not believe In Jesus pre-existence as the Word that was with God and was God! I do not see how you could have taught the Trinity and believe Jesus was God if he did not pre-exist coming in the flesh! WJ I know for certain that I did not teach the Preexisting of Jesus to our children.  And why would I, we did not believe in it.  I am sorry but I don't think I did.  That is really all I can say about this. O.K. Like I said before, that was a new revelation for us, after we left the W.W.C. of God. Love Irene

Hi Irene

So really you never understood what the Trinity doctrine was?

WJ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,02:54)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene

They believe in the trinity and the trinity is constant in their belief without beginning. They say Jesus was eternally begotten by the Father.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,11:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,11:06) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,03:07) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,10:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2009,11:16) Quote (Cindy @ July 28 2009,09:38) Gene t8 gave you several Scriptures that prove that.  Are you going to deny that?  I do not believe in a trinity and the Catholic Church never believed in a preexisting of Jesus.  So you call Scripture false? That truth God revealed to us after we even leave the W.W.C. of God.  And you know they do not believe that. Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene Catholics do believe in a pre-existing Jesus Did you belong to that Church?  I did and I don't remember that they did!  We were born into that Church and I taught many doctrines to our 4 Children. We left there in 1984-85  Where did you get that information from? I can call a friend that belongs there, and ask Her if I can get hold of Her. Irene Irene Hi Irene The Catholics believe in the trinity, you have said yourself you taught the Trinity in the catholic church. There is no Trinity without Pre-existence! WJ You know what makes it interesting is that t8 and others believe in the preexisting of Jesus and do not believe in the trinity either.  So why would one have to do with the other? IMO nothing. It has been 25 years ago since we believed in the trinity, and who knows what the Catholic Church believes now. And I do not believe that I ever taught our Children the preexisting of Jesus. Peace and Love Irene Irene There is no Trinitarian that does not believe In Jesus pre-existence as the Word that was with God and was God! I do not see how you could have taught the Trinity and believe Jesus was God if he did not pre-exist coming in the flesh! WJ I know for certain that I did not teach the Preexisting of Jesus to our children.  And why would I, we did not believe in it.  I am sorry but I don't think I did.  That is really all I can say about this. O.K. Like I said before, that was a new revelation for us, after we left the W.W.C. of God. Love Irene

I understand what you are saying because pre-existence doesn't mean being God and in basic Christian theology you would have only taught others about the existence of The Son of God who was sent into the world. You would have not really understood the theology of the trinity because it cannot be understood unless it is specifically taught to you.

So you taught about Christ and you did well.

[Author]

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