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Hi GM,
WE understand you point of view.
Why would you expect us to agree with you when he had glory with the Father before he emptied himself and came.Nick………That glory was a preplanned Glory, Jesus full well know that, he was not ignorant of what God had planed for him, he understood scriptures referring to Him, he know his preplanned Glory from the start of his ministry. If you are going to push preexistence then show us any activity of Jesus before his berth. Fact is you or no one else can either, you need to come out of the false teachings of the Apostate church, your still in them, and it effects you judgments. These false teaching are blocking your advancement in understanding. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Nick……….read the number 3 posted by Adam, it might clear some of the cob webs out of your thinking on preexistence. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
Nick……….Yes he had it a preplanned glory GOD does not lie . But he did not have it till he recieved it , just like us, we also have preplanned glory but we wont have it till we recieve it, we can make the same statement as Jesus did. For whom he foreknew he predestined . GO and read the number 3 site ADAM posted it might help you better understand. imo
peace and love…………………..gene
John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me.
We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become?
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone!
There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human. Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God.
The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.
Other scriptures show this to be true as well.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, and it actually gives me goose bumps, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us.
David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood.
The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality.
Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed.
The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality.
This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.
Jodi………..Amen, that is exactly as i see it also. There has been so much false teachings about the preexistences of Jesus, people don't realize how damaging that is to their thinking, it moves Jesus away from their own identity and causes them to not really believe that what God did for and through Jesus He can and will do through us also. We have a (BROTHER) ONE OF US,who is passed into the heaven's and is soon coming to rescue us and be with us for ever and ever, OUR BROTHER THE KING, WHOM THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO US AND US TO HIM. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi Jodi Lee,
Wonderful points that you brought out on negating the so called literal prexistence of our Lord. Many here think that Jesus preexisted his human birth. I think our Bible does not agree with them at all. They believe simply in another mythology called preexistence. Do share more.May God bless you
Love
AdamQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,08:12) Hi Not3,
You say
“The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. “
Where?
Scripture says the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]
The scripture also says that John the Baptist was sent into the world, right?Hi BD,
No.
John was sent from God as all God's prophets were as shown in the parable of the vineyard.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2009,18:32) Hi BD,
No.
John was sent from God as all God's prophets were as shown in the parable of the vineyard.
I agree! 🙂Quote (bodhitharta @ June 14 2009,18:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2009,18:32) Hi BD,
No.
John was sent from God as all God's prophets were as shown in the parable of the vineyard.
I agree! 🙂John 1:6 (King James Version)
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John
EditJodi misrepresents the verse in John 17:5 It says:” And now, O Father GLORIFY ME TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF, WITH THE GLORY THAT I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. That shows me that Christ was there with the Father before the world was. He also was the firstborn of all creation in
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation. He also was the firstborn of the dead, so in all He may have preeminence, meaning He is first in all, first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ June 08 2009,17:13) John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me.
We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become?
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone!
There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human. Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God.
The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.
Other scriptures show this to be true as well.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, and it actually gives me goose bumps, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us.
David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood.
The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality.
Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed.
The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality.
This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.
This goes with my previous post. To show you what She said aboutr in John 17:5
IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ June 08 2009,17:13) John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. We see the above scripture show that Jesus was NOT YET glorified…..the hour has come…..and now O Father, glorify me.
We see that the glory in chapter 17 is represented as eternal life.
Therefore the glorifying that Jesus is waiting for is eternal life.
I think we should think things over a bit here. Jesus received immortality? What exactly did Jesus become?
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
He was resurrected and remained a Son of MAN!
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
He was resurrected and still had flesh and bone!
There is no reference to Jesus being any other sort of 'being,' other than a human. Jesus was the MAN from heaven. What does that mean to be from heaven? The manna in the wilderness was said to be from heaven. Jesus was compared to being the manna from heaven. The manna didn’t literally pre-exist in heaven, it came down from heaven meaning that it was not produced through nature do to the timing of a harvest season. It was created on earth under the direct plan and timing of God. Jesus came from heaven not because some part of him who pre-existed and emptied himself came down from God’s dwelling place. Jesus did not come the natural way from the procreation of two individuals. Jesus came under the direct plan and timing of God.
The glory that Jesus was waiting to receive, was the glory of a HUMAN BEING receiving immortality. This was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was.
Other scriptures show this to be true as well.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The PROMISE was NOT for a pre-existent immortal son to empty himself and become a human being to save mankind, that is adding to scripture. It’s not even close to what Romans 1 tells us, which is that the promise was for a descendant of David, a human according to the flesh, would come at the direct planning and timing of God, and live, die and be resurrected.
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
David already saw Jesus through God’s revelation sitting at the right hand of God. What is rather significant when we think about it, and it actually gives me goose bumps, is that this future glory was already ALIVE as a spirit of knowledge and understanding, working in the heart of man, in the heart of David BEFORE it occurred. David foresaw the glory and I’m sure it moved him, as it does us.
David did not foresee a pre-existent son coming down from heaven. David foresaw the plan of God which was to create an eternal king from his own blood.
The glory that existed before the world was, that lived in the heart and mind of David, was David’s own descendant receiving immortality and sitting at the right hand of God.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
If these men believed for one second that Jesus was some pre-existing immortal, I believe the doubt of their own resurrection would have been much greater AND highly more understandable.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Jesus is the firstfruits according to being the first MAN raised from the dead receiving immortality.
Scripture defines God’s plan, which was NOT for a pre-existent son to empty himself and become a human, it was God’s plan that by one man death would come and by another MAN, death would be destroyed.
The glory that Jesus had with God before the world was, is shown to be the plan of a man of the seed of David, receiving immortality.
This glory was alive and producing fruit long before it even occurred. It lived in the hearts of the prophets, and it certainly lived in the beginning, in the heart of our Almighty Father.
This goes with my previous post about John 17:5
IreneQuote (t8 @ July 25 2009,12:10) John 6:62
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
Hi brother T8,
This verse quoted by the writer of the Fourth Gospel in a mythological way as if a son of man was literally existing in heaven prior to Jesus' birth. As everyone knows no son of man could exist in heaven prior to Jesus' ascention. The same Gospel writer quotes elsewhere that noone has ascended into heaven except the son of man who is in heaven(presentence).
So what do you say, did Jesus pre-exist literally as son of man in heaven before he actually taken birth as human being on this earth.?
No where in the synoptic Gospels this language appears. Do you think that the Fourth Gospel which was written decades after the synoptic Gospels reveal some thing different from the synoptic Gospels?Please think over
AdamI make no apologies for believing in the following:
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.I am also wary of people who systematically try to explain all these verses away by using wisdom outside of scripture itself. Most explanations I have heard seem quite lame and I prefer to believe the scriptures as they are written.
T8………So show us a scripture that says Jesus preexisted before he was born on earth then. John said who soever that believes that Jesus came (into existence) in the FLESH is of GOD and whosoever that Believes Jesus can (into existence) not in the flesh is not of GOD and (THIS) is the SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST, that you have heard is coming and is (ALREADY) in the World . It was the Gnostic's that were teaching that Jesus Preexisted and came forth from the Pelora a preexistence state. A false teaching of Jesus' preexistences that started at the time of John. John and Paul and Peter held back those false teachings , but when they were remove the teaching took hold and produced the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES ideologies. Turning the IMAGE of JESUS into the Man of SIN, a LIE, which He will abolish by the words of HIS mouth at His return. If we don not see Jesus as one of US we simply do not see Jesus. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
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