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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,13:55) Hi E,
Was he man and also the God of whom he said he was the Son?John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?complex question informal fallacy
topical
blessings,
kenHi E,
Simplicity is a key to the kingdom.2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Those who would make their god a trinity have to tie themselves in knots to maintain this false facade.
Quote (epistemaniac @ April 23 2009,10:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:08) Hi E,
Yes even my words you copy.
Are you able to stand alone and dare to search scripture without other men to guide you?
there is no scripture in your post at all Nick, therefore I have to say that you are writing merely the words of a sinful fallen man and there can be no truth on them….blessings,
ken
Must there be a scripture with each post in order to validate truth therin?I do not see scripture in several of your last posts.
Luk 11:46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Hi N
Quote Simplicity is a key to the kingdom.. …Those who would make their god a trinity have to tie themselves in knots to maintain this false facade. This is just your interpretation and opinion and holds no weight at all…. as these are just the words of a sinful fallen man….
blessings,
kenQuote (SEEKING @ April 24 2009,08:09) Quote (epistemaniac @ April 23 2009,10:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:08) Hi E,
Yes even my words you copy.
Are you able to stand alone and dare to search scripture without other men to guide you?
there is no scripture in your post at all Nick, therefore I have to say that you are writing merely the words of a sinful fallen man and there can be no truth on them….blessings,
ken
Must there be a scripture with each post in order to validate truth therin?I do not see scripture in several of your last posts.
Luk 11:46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Hey Seeking… of course not…. I am glad you see the folly of thinking so… but Nick offers his opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures constantly, and then thinks he can, with a wave of his hand, dismiss anyone else's words as merely the words of “scholars”, or just an “interpretation” and “opinion”, as if this fact alone actually refutes what is said!! lol…. I am merely pointing out to Nick that he constantly offers his opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures, and if he can, then so can anyone else, be they a professional biblical scholar, or a lay person like myself. And just because my interpretation differs from his, or if I post the words of a commentator or linguistic scholar that differs from his, he cannot consistently dismiss these words as being false simply because the words posted were not the Scriptures only, or “only” an interpretation of the scripture, as he himself engages in interpretation as well.good catch
blessings,
kenKen….> Amen, brother. Nick criticizes others for expressing their opinions but has no problem expressing (HIS) does He. Kind of Hypocritical seems to me . But we brothers and sisters have to deal with what we have, i still love HIM just don't agree with him on some things. I believe he is sincere even if He is sincerely wrong at times, but then I also could be on some things. I just post what i believe is what GOD the FATHER has given me, in my understanding, I hope i don't offend or prevent anyone. That would be a terrible thing to be attributed to my account, If i have offended anyone I ask for forgiveness of you ALL.
Peace and love to you and all………………………..gene
Quote (epistemaniac @ April 24 2009,08:26) Hi N Quote Simplicity is a key to the kingdom.. …Those who would make their god a trinity have to tie themselves in knots to maintain this false facade. This is just your interpretation and opinion and holds no weight at all…. as these are just the words of a sinful fallen man….
blessings,
ken
Hi E,
Judgement belongs to one greater than you.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2009,10:20) Quote (epistemaniac @ April 24 2009,08:26) Hi N Quote Simplicity is a key to the kingdom.. …Those who would make their god a trinity have to tie themselves in knots to maintain this false facade. This is just your interpretation and opinion and holds no weight at all…. as these are just the words of a sinful fallen man….
blessings,
ken
Hi E,
Judgement belongs to one greater than you.
that's just your sinful fallen opinion, I see no Scripture at all to back up your claims…..blessings,
kenQuote (Gene @ April 24 2009,10:00) Ken….> Amen, brother. Nick criticizes others for expressing their opinions but has no problem expressing (HIS) does He. Kind of Hypocritical seems to me . But we brothers and sisters have to deal with what we have, i still love HIM just don't agree with him on some things. I believe he is sincere even if He is sincerely wrong at times, but then I also could be on some things. I just post what i believe is what GOD the FATHER has given me, in my understanding, I hope i don't offend or prevent anyone. That would be a terrible thing to be attributed to my account, If i have offended anyone I ask for forgiveness of you ALL. Peace and love to you and all………………………..gene
oh I agree Gene…. I am serious, but at the same time I am poking a bit of fun at him as well…. he does have a double standard and hopefully he can come to see that… and I appreciate your sharing that you see the situation in the same way… hopefully in the testimony of several people he will see the truth of what we say and change his ways. Hopefully he is not beyond being teachable at least in this area. And I have no doubt that nearly everyone here is sincere in their beliefs, I know you are, I know I am, and I don't doubt Nick's sincerity. Of course sincerity is no marker of truth necessarily, as Romans 10:2 shows.In any case, I have a very sarcastic sense of humor and I hope this does not offend anyone either, and I too ask forgiveness if I have caused offense…. to be passionate about truth, to confront what we take to be serous doctrinal error on the very essentials of the core of the Christian faith, and to do so in a way that glorifies God, is some of the finest most difficult lines we walk.
I recently shared with a dear brother in Christ an article that also points out that we need not adopt any approach in our apologetic endeavors but than that which we see in Scripture, that is, we do not need to be as he put it “nicer than God”, we do not need to be politically or culturally correct, we need to be faithful to the Scriptures both in what they say and how they say it, and lets face it, Jesus, Paul… Peter… John… the OT prophets…. all were really really tough on those who were committing significant doctrinal error.
Paul tells the Judiazers that if they were so concerned about circumcision that he wishes they would just go ahead and cut their own you know what off, and is pretty tough talk, if not also slightly hilarious!! Galatians 5:12 (ESV) I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!” Anyways… the point is, I want to be firm in my beliefs, firm in my confrontation with what I consider to be heresy, and just as there is no inherent contradiction is saying that God is both loving and wrathful, and that His wrath does not nullify His love, it seems that Christians can follow this, as well as Jesus' example, and that of the disciples, that firm stern rebuke does not have to be therefore unloving just because it is stern.
I believe that telling people who deny that Trinity that they are involved in rank heresy, and that they have gone beyond the bounds of what may rightly be considered “Christianity” is the most loving thing I can do. It is not as if I am being judgmental here either, every one who identifies themselves as “Christian”, or at least most everyone realizes that at some point a person no longer can rightly call themselves a Christian…. say for instance someone who denies the existence of God or a Satanist…. the point being, we all draw our lines in the sand… mine just happens t be drawn where the church has drawn it for nearly 200 years.
blessings,
kenHi E,
Is not heresy to teach beyond the foundation of scripture or has it been redefined to be beyond tradition?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2009,13:35) Hi E,
So you would be as God and judge men?
I am judging your posts, and their lack of scripture, just like you judge everyone else's… if you don't like that, then I suggest that you stop being hypocritical and realize that just as you put into your own words what you believe the Scriptures to be teaching, that anyone and everyone else is entitled to do that exact same thing, whether that person be a scholar writing a commentary or lexicon, or whether it be a lay person like myself…blessings,
kenHi E,
Strange but I thought you judged me as a sinner thus putting yourself beyond such charges.
Anyway how can you judge the words of another if scripture is not your foundation?
Trinity is not of the teaching of scripture so it seems a weak foundationQuote (epistemaniac @ April 23 2009,13:31) Quote (SEEKING @ April 24 2009,08:09) Quote (epistemaniac @ April 23 2009,10:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:08) Hi E,
Yes even my words you copy.
Are you able to stand alone and dare to search scripture without other men to guide you?
there is no scripture in your post at all Nick, therefore I have to say that you are writing merely the words of a sinful fallen man and there can be no truth on them….blessings,
ken
Must there be a scripture with each post in order to validate truth therin?I do not see scripture in several of your last posts.
Luk 11:46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
Hey Seeking… of course not…. I am glad you see the folly of thinking so… but Nick offers his opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures constantly, and then thinks he can, with a wave of his hand, dismiss anyone else's words as merely the words of “scholars”, or just an “interpretation” and “opinion”, as if this fact alone actually refutes what is said!! lol…. I am merely pointing out to Nick that he constantly offers his opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures, and if he can, then so can anyone else, be they a professional biblical scholar, or a lay person like myself. And just because my interpretation differs from his, or if I post the words of a commentator or linguistic scholar that differs from his, he cannot consistently dismiss these words as being false simply because the words posted were not the Scriptures only, or “only” an interpretation of the scripture, as he himself engages in interpretation as well.good catch
blessings,
ken
Thank you for that clarification. Granting equal credence to opinion arrived at through study, lexicons, commentaries, etc.would be extending mutual respect.Respect, in much language used here seems vastly lacking.
Perhaps it is because we get caught up in the fervor of our own convictions.We then pursue those convictions with a tenacity that forgets the Biblical principles of discourse. I fear that in that type of discussion there is only one winner and it is not God.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,Peace,
Seeking
For brother T8,
We better debate Jesus' preexistence on this wonderful thread instead on Trinity2.
So you believe Jesus was preexisting as some being prior to his birth on this earth?Hi all,
“Pre-existence” is a mythological term which signifies that an entity had a real existence before its manifestation on earth, either in the mind of God or in heaven. It means that an entity is said to pre-exist because it exists with God before it's own manifestation. The same thing happened with Jesus. The word existed with God before it really manifested in the person Jesus. But whether the “word” was another being apart from God?Please think over
AdamAdam……….A word is not a being it is a (EXPRESSION OF INTELLECT) This is its simplest meaning. The word was with GOD because it was GOD'S Self Expression, even as our words are ourself expression and can be considered part of who we are. God brought all theings into existence through His words and powers. John 1:1 say's In the beginning (of everything) was the word (expressed intellegence) and this expressed intellegence was with God (Powers) and was GOD, Elohim or (POWERS). This intellect is also what enlightens every man coming into the earth. Jesus did not preexist His berth, He was foreordained (BUT) was manifested in our time, as Peter said, That means Jesus was in the foreknowledge of GOD or His plan from the beginning of creation, However like Jeremiah and Cyrus , He was not brought into existence until he was BORN and GOD the FATHER then gave him the fullness of the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and He EXPRESSED those WORDS to US> But remember He said the WORDS were not His WORDS but the WORDS of HIM that sent Him. These words of GOD were in HIM, but man has turned this around and made HIM, HIMSELF the WORD and this is a way of stealing glory of the FATHER, something Jesus never did. The teaching of the Trinity, preexistence, and doctrines about demons , so-called (FREE WILLS) are all teachings of the APOSTATE CHURCHES> They plague the minds of those who buy into them and fill them with false understandings. We are told to come (OUT) of these false teaching or these plagues will work in our minds. They corrupt not only the truth of GOD but also the minds of those who believe and teach them. IMO
peace and love to you Adam and yours……………………….gene
To all I remember putting something down about the preexisting of Jesus, but I can't find it now. So I will put the Scriptures down how I proved it to me. Before I do that, I like to say the a J.W. first told me about that and I told Him He was stupid. God however did not leave me in that unbelief.
Col.1:15-18 firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead, so in all He will have preeminence.
Rev. 3:14 Again firstborn of all creation.
John 1:1 this scripture in John I know Gene will not agree with. But let us see what
verse 3 said He was the one that made all.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.” Jesus own word's. Unless you want to call Jesus a liar, you have to say that I am right in this, I had to not to long ago.
Peace and Love IreneHi Sis Irene,
I appreciate your concern on preexistence of Jesus. But the scriptures you quoted are well answered in this thread 'n-number of times. If you want more insights please gothrough these webpages. You may better understand them. The preexistence which the Bible infers is only the Ideal preexistence in the mind and the plan of God but not literal preexistence what brother Gene, myself, Kerwin and others believe here. P_lease understand.1. http://www.bibleed.com/biblete….nce.asp
2. http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2008….ce.html
3. http://www.philosophy-religion.org/faith/nature-preexistance.htm
4. http://cdelph.org/jesus.html
5. http://www.esnips.com/doc….ISTENCE
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