Preexistence

[epistemaniac]

but wait… here is yet more evidence of Christ's preexistence, and deity…

II. THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST.
1. DIVINE NAMES ARE GIVEN TO HIM.
a) He is Called God.
John 1:1—”The Word was God.” Heb. 1:8—”But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever.” John 1:18—”The only begotten Son (or better “only begotten God”).” Absolute deity is here ascribed to Christ. 20:28-“My Lord and my God.” Not an expression of ama zement, but a confession of faith. This confession accepted by Christ, hence equivalent to the acceptance of deity, and an assertion of it on Christ's part. Rom. 9:5—”God blessed forever.” Tit. 2:13—”The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” 1 John 5:20—”His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God.” In all these passages Christ is called God.
It may be argued that while Christ is here called God, yet that does not argue for nor prove His deity, for human judges are also called “gods” in John 10:35—”If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came.” True, but it is then used in a secondary and relative sense, and not in the absolute sense as when used of the Son.
b) He is Called the Son of God.
The references containing this title are numerous. Among others see Matt. 16:16, 17; 8:29; 14:33; Mark 1:1; 14:61; Luke 1:35; 4:41. While it may be true that in the synoptic Gospels Jesus may not be said to have claimed this title for Himself, yet He unhesitatingly accepted it when used of Him and addressed to Him by others. Further, it seems clear from the charges made against Him that He did claim such an honor for Himself. Matt. 27:40, 43—”For he said, I am the Son of God.” Mark 14:61, 62 —”Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed” (Luke 22:70—”Art thou then the Son of God? And Jesus said, I am.” In John's Gospel, however, Jesus plainly calls Himself “the Son of God” (5:25; 10:36 11:4). Indeed, John's Gospel begins with Christ as God: “The Word was God,” and ends with the same thought: “My Lord and my God” (20:28). (Chapter 21 is an epilogue.)
Dr. James Orr says, in speaking of the title Son of God as ascribed to Christ: “This title is one to which there can be no finite comparison or analogy. The oneness with God which it designates is not such reflex influence of the divine thought and character such as man and angels may attain, but identity of essence constituting him not God-like alone, but God. Others may be children of God in a moral sense; but by this right of elemental nature, none but He; He is herein, the only Son; so little separate, so close to the inner divine life which He expresses, that He is in the bosom of the Father. This language denotes two natures homogeneous, entirely one, and both so essential to the Godhead that neither can be omitted from any truth you speak of it.”
If when He called Himself “the Son of God” He did not mean more than that He was a son of God, why then did the high priest accuse Him of blasphemy when He claimed this title (Matt. 26: 61-63)? Does not Mark 12:6—”Having yet therefore one son, his well-beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son,” indicate a special sonship? The sonship of Christ is human and historical, it is true; but it is more: it is transcendent, unique, solitary. That something unique and solitary lay in this title seems clear from John 5:18—”The Jews sought the more to kill Him….because he….said….also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”
The use of the word “only begotten” also indicates the uniqueness of this sonship. For use of the word see Luke 7:12—”The only son of his mother.” 9:38—”For he is mine only child.” This word is used of Christ by John in 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9, and distinguishes between Christ as the only Son, and the “many….children of God” (John 1:12, 13). In one sense Christ has no brethren: He stands absolutely alone. This contrast is clearly emphasized in John 1:14, 18—”only begotten Son,” and 1:12 (R. V.)—”many….children.” He is the Son from eternity: they “become” sons in time. He is one; they are many. He is Son by nature; they are sons by adoption and grace. He is Son of the same essence with the Father; they are of different substance from the Father.
c) He is Called The Lord.

Acte 4:33; 16:31; Luke 2:11; Acts 9:17; Matt. 22:43-45. It is true that this term is used of men, e.g., Acts 16:30—”Sirs (Lords), what must I do to be saved?” John 12:21—”Sir (Lord), we would see Jesus.” It is not used, however, in this unique sense, as the connection will clearly show. In our Lord's day, the title “Lord” as used of Christ was applicable only to the Deity, to God. “The Ptolemies and the Roman Emperors would allow the name to be applied to them only when they permitted themselves to be deified. The archaeological discoveries at Oxyrhyncus put this fact beyond a doubt. So when the New Testament writers speak of Jesus as Lord, there can be no question as to what they mean.” —Wood.
d) Other Divine Names are Ascribed to Him:
“The first and the last” (Rev. 1:17). This title used of Jehovah in Isa. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12. “The Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 22:13, 16); cf. 1:8 where it is used of God.
2. DIVINE WORSHIP IS ASCRIBED TO JESUS CHRIST.
The Scriptures recognize worship as being due to God, to Deity alone: Matt. 4:10—”Worship the Lord thy God, and him only.” Rev. 22:8, 9—”I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel…Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not:…. worship God.” John was not allowed even to worship God at the feet of the angel. Acts 14:14, 15; 10:25, 26—Cornelius fell down at the feet of Peter, and worshipped him. “But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.” See what an awful fate was meted out to Herod because he dared to accept worship that belonged to God only (Acts 12:20-25). Yet Jesus Christ unhesitatingly accepted such worsnip, indeed, called for it (John 4:10). See John 20:28; Matt. 14:33; Luke 24:52; 5:8.
The homage given to Christ in these scriptures would be nothing short of sacrilegious idolatry if Christ were not God. There seemed to be not the slightest reluctance on the part of Christ in the acceptance of such worship. Therefore either Christ was God or He was an imposter. But His whole life refutes the idea of imposture.
It was He who said, “Worship God only”; and He had no right to take the place of God if He were not God.
God himself commands all men to render worship to the Son, even as they do to Him. John 5:23, 24—”That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.” Even the angels are commanded to render worship to the Son. Heb. 1:6—”And let all the angels of God worship him.” Phil. 2:10—”That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.”
It was the practice of the apostles and the early church to render worship to Christ: 2 Cor. 12:8-10—”I besought the Lord.” Acts 7:59—”And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 1 Cor. 1:2—”Them that…call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.”
The Christians of all ages have not been satisfied with admiring Christ, they have adored and worshipped Him. They have approached His person in the attitude of self-sacrifice and worship as in the presence of and to a God.
Robert Browning quoted, in a letter to a lady in her last illness, the words of Charles Lamb, when in a gay fancy with some friends as to how he and they would feel if the greatest of the dead were to appear suddenly in flesh and blood once more—on the first suggestion, and “if Christ entered this room?” changed his tone at once, and stuttered out as his manner was when moved: “You see —if Shakespeare entered, we should all rise; if Christ appeared, we must kneel.”
3. HE POSSESSES THE QUALITIES AND PROPERTIES OF DEITY.
a) Pre-Existence.
John 1:1—”In the beginning”; cf. Gen 1:1 John 8:58—”Before Abraham was, I am.” That is to say: “Abraham's existence presupposes mine, not mine his. He was dependent upon me, not I upon him for existence. Abrah
am came into being at a certain point of time, but I am.”
Here is simple being without beginning or end. See also John 17:5; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:16, 17.
b) Self-Existence and Life-Giving Power:
John 5:21, 26—”For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.” “For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.” 1:4—”In him was life.” See also 14:6; Heb. 7:16; John 17:3-5; 10:17, 18. These scriptures teach that all life—physical, moral, spiritual, eternal—has its source in Christ.
c) Immutability:
Heb. 13:8—”Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.” See also 1:12. All nature, which like a garment He throws around Him is subject to change and decay; Jesus Christ is the same always, He never changes. Human teachers, such as are spoken of in the context, may change, but He, the Christ, never.
d) All the Fulness of the Godhead Dwelt in Him:
Col. 2:9—Not merely the divine perfections and attributes of Deity, but (theotes) the very essence and nature of the Godhead.
He was not merely God-like; He was God.
4. DIVINE OFFICES ABE ASCRIBED TO HIM.
a) He is the Creator:
John 1:3—”All things were made by Him.” In the creation He was the acting power and personal instrument. Creation is the revelation of His mind and might. Heb. 1:10 shows the dignity of the Creator as contrasted with the creature. Col. 1:16 contradicts the Gnostic theory of emanations, and shows Christ to be the creator of all created things and beings. Rev. 3:14—”The beginning of the creation of God,” means “beginning” in the active sense, the origin, that by which a thing begins to be. Col. 1:15—”first-born,” not made; compare with Col. 1:17, where the “for” of v. 16 shows Him to be not included in the “created things,” but the origin of and superior to them all. He is the Creator of the universe (v. 16), just as He is the Head of the church (v. 18).
b) He is the Upholder of All Things:
Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3. The universe is neither self-sustaining nor is it forsaken by God (Deism). Christ's power causes all things to hold together. The pulses of universal life are regulated and controlled by the throbbings of the mighty heart of Christ.
c) He Has the Right to Forgive Sins.
Mark 2:5-10. Luke 7:48—”And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.” Certain it is that the Pharisees recognized that Christ was here assuming a divine prerogative. No mere man had any right to forgive sins. God alone could do that. Hence the Pharisees' charge of blasphemy. This is no declaration of forgiveness, based upon the knowledge of the man's penitence. Christ does not merely declare sins forgiven. He actually forgives them. Further, Jesus, in the parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7), declares that sins were committed against Himself (cf. Psa. 51:4—”Against thee, thee only, have I sinned”).
d) The Raising of the Bodies of Men is Ascribed to Him:
John 6:39, 40, 54; 11:25. Five times it is here declared by Jesus that it is His prerogative to raise the dead. It is true that others raised the dead, but under what different conditions? They worked by a delegated power (Acts 9:34); but Christ, by His own power (John 10:17, 18). Note the agony of Elisha and others, as compared with the calmness of Christ. None of these claimed to raise the dead by his own power, nor to have any such power in the general resurrection of all men. Christ did make such claims.
e) He is to be the Judge of All Men.
John 5:22—”For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” 2 Tim. 4:1; Acts 17:31; Matt. 25:31-46. The Man of the Cross is to be the Man of the throne. The issues of the judgment are all in His hand.
5. DIVINE ATTRIBUTES ARE POSSESSED BY HIM.
a) Omnipotence.
Matt 28:18—”All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
Rev. 1:8; John 17:2; Eph. I:20-22. Here is power over three realms: First, all power on earth: over disease (Luke 4:38-41); death (John 11); nature, water into wine (John 2); tempest (Matt. 8). Second, all power in hell: over demons (Luke 4:35, 36, 41); evil angels (Eph. 6). Third, all power in heaven: (Eph. 1:20-22). Finally, power over all things: (Heb. 2:8; 1:3; Matt. 28:18).
b) Omniscience.
John 16:30—”Now are we sure that thou knowest all things.” 2:24; Matt. 24; 25; Col. 2:3. Illustrations: John 4:16-19; Mark 2:8;
John 1:48. “Our Lord always leaves the impression that He knew all things in detail, both past and future, and that this knowledge comes from His original perception of the events. He does not learn them by acquisition. He simply knows them by immediate perception. Such utterances as Matt. 24 and Luke 21 carry in them a subtle difference from the utterances of the prophets. The latter spoke as men who were quite remote in point of time from their declaration of unfolding events. Jesus spoke as one who is present in the midst of the events which He depicts. He does not refer to events in the past as if He were quoting from the historic narrative in the Old Testament. The only instance which casts doubt upon this view is Mark 13:32. The parallel passage in Matthew omits, in many ancient versions, the words; “Neither the Son.” The saying in Mark is capable of an interpretation which does not contradict this view of His omniscience. This is an omniscience nevertheless, which in its manifestation to men is under something of human limitation.”—Wood.
This limitation of knowledge is no argument against the infallibility of those things which Jesus did teach: for example, the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch. That argument, says Liddon, involves a confusion between limitation of knowledge and liability to error; whereas, plainly enough, a limitation of knowledge is one thing, and fallibility is another. St. Paul says, “We know in part,” and “We see through a glass darkly.” Yet Paul is so certain of the truth of that which he teaches, as to exclaim, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Paul clearly believed in his own infallibility as a teacher of religious truth, and the church of Christ has ever since regarded his epistles as part of an infallible literature. But it is equally clear that Paul believed his knowledge of truth to be limited. Infallibility does not imply omniscience, any more than limited knowledge implies error. If a human teacher were to decline to speak upon a given subject, by saying that he did not know enough about it, this would not be a reason for disbelieving him when he proceeded to speak confidently upon a totally different subject, thereby at least implying that he did not know enough to warrant his speaking. On the contrary, his silence in the one case would be a reason for trusting his statements in the other. The argument which is under consideration in the text would have been really sound, if our Saviour had fixed the date of the day of judgment and the event had shown him to be mistaken. Why stumble over the limitation of this attribute and not over the others? Did He not hunger and thirst, for example? As God He is omnipresent, yet as man He is present only in one place. As God He is omnipotent; yet, on one occasion at least, He could do no mighty works because of the unbelief of men.
c) Omnipresence.
Matt. 18:20—”For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” He is with every missionary (Matt. 28:20). He is prayed to by Christians in every place (1 Cor. 1:2). Prayer would be a mockery if we were not assured that Christ is everywhere present to hear. He fills all things, every place (Eph. 1:23). But such an all pervading presence is true only of Deity.
6. HIS NAME IS COUPLED WITH THAT OF GOD THE FATHER.
The manner in which the name of Jesus Christ is coupled with that of God the Father clearly implies equality of the Son with the Father. Compare the following:
a) The Apostolic Benediction.
2 Cor. 13:14. Here the Son equally with the Father is th
e bestower of grace.
b) The Baptismal Formula.
Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:38. “In the name,” not the names (plural).
How would it sound to say, “In the name of the Father” and of Moses? Would it not seem sacrilegious? Can we imagine the effect of such words on the apostles?
c) Other Passages.
John 14:23—”We will come: the Father and I.” 17:3—”And this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ.” The content of saving faith includes belief in Jesus Christ equally with the Father. 10:30—”I and my Father are one.” “One” is neuter, not masculine, meaning that Jesus and the Father constitute one power by which the salvation of man is secured. 2 Thess. 2:16, 17—”Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father…comfort your hearts.” These two names, with a verb in the singular, intimate the oneness of the Father with the Son.
7. THE SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS OF JESUS REGARDING HIS OWN PERSON AND WORK

It will be interesting to search the Gospel records to ascertain what was in the mind of Jesus concerning Himself—His relation to the Father in particular. What bearing has the testimony of Jesus upon the question of His deity? Is the present Christian consciousness borne out by the Gospel narratives? Is Jesus Christ a man of a much higher type of faith than ours, yet one with whom we believe in God? Or is He, equally with God, the object of our faith? Do we believe with Him, or on Him? Is there any indication in the words ascribed to Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, of a consciousness on His part of His unique relation to God the Father? Is it Jesus Himself who is responsible for the Christian's consciousness concerning His deity, or is the Church reading into the Gospel accounts something that is not really there? Let us see.
a) As Set Forth in the Narrative of His Visit to the Temple.
Luke 2:41-52. This is a single flower out of the wonderfully enclosed garden of the first thirty years of our Lord's life. The emphatic words, for our purpose, are “thy father,” and “my Father.” These are the first recorded words of Jesus. Is there not here an indication of the consciousness on the part of Jesus of a unique relationship with His heavenly Father? Mary, not Joseph, asked the question, so contrary to Jewish custom. She said: “Thy father”; Jesus replied in substance: “Did you say my father has been seeking me?”
It is remarkable to note that Christ omits the word “father” when referring to His parents, cf. Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33, 34. “My Father!” No other human lips had ever uttered these words. Men said, and He taught them to say, “Our Father.” It is not too much to say that in this incident Christ sees, rising before Him, the great truth that God, and not Joseph, is His Father, and that it is in His true Father's house that He now stands.
b) As Revealed at His Baptism:
Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-ll; Luke 3:21. Here are some things to remember in connection with Christ's baptism: First, Jesus was well acquainted with the relation of John and his ministry to the Old Testament prophecy, as well as of John's own announcement that he was the Messiah's fore-runner, and that he (John) was not worthy to untie the latchet of Christ's shoes. Second, to come then to John, and to submit to baptism at his hands, would indicate that Jesus conceded the truth of all that John had said. This is emphasized when we remember Jesus' eulogy of John (Matt. 11). Thirdly, There is the descent of the Spirit, and the heavenly voice; what meaning did these things have to Jesus? If Christ's sermon in the synagogue at Nazareth is of any help here, we must believe that at His baptism, so much more than at the age of twelve, He was conscious that in thus being anointed He was associating Himself in some peculiar way with the prophecy of Isaiah, chapters 42 and 61: “Behold my Servant… I have put my Spirit upon Him.” All, therefore, that must have been wrapped up in the thought of the “Servant of the Lord” in the Old Testament would assuredly be quickened in his consciousness that day when the Spirit descended upon Him. See also Luke 4:16-17; Acts 10: 38; Matt. 12:28.
But what did the heavenly voice signify to Christ? “This is my beloved Son” takes us back to the second Psalm where this person is addressed as the ideal King of Israel. The last clause—”in whom I am well pleased”—refers to Isaiah 42, and portrays the servant who is anointed and empowered by the endowment of God's Spirit. We must admit that the mind of Jesus was steeped in the prophecies of the Old Testament, and that He knew to whom these passages referred. The ordinary Jew knew that much. Is it too much to say that on that baptismal day Jesus was keenly conscious that these Old Testament predictions were fulfilled in Him? We think not.
c) As Set Forth in the Record of the Temptation.
Matt. 4:1-11; Mark 1:12, 13; Luke 4:1-13. That Jesus entered into the temptation in the wilderness with the consciousness of the revelation He received, and of which He was conscious at the baptism, seems clear from the narratives. Certain it is that Satan based his temptations upon Christ's consciousness of His unique relation to God as His Son. Throughout the whole of the temptation Satan regards Christ as being in a unique sense the Son of God, the ideal King, through whom the kingdom of God is to be established upon the earth. Indeed, so clearly is the kingship of Jesus recognized in the temptation narrative that the whole question agitated there is as to how that kingdom may be established in the world. It must be admitted that a careful reading of the narratives forces us to the conclusion that throughout all the temptation Christ was conscious of His position with reference to the founding of God's kingdom in the world.
d) As Set Forth in the Calling of the Twelve and the Seventy.
The record of this event is found in Matt. 10; Mark 3:13-19; 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6; 10:1-14. This important event in the life of our Lord had an important bearing upon His self-consciousness as to His person and work. Let us note some of the details:
First, as to the number, twelve. Is there no suggestion here with reference to the New Jerusalem when the Messiah shall sit upon the throne surrounded by the twelve apostles seated on their thrones? Is not Jesus here conscious of Himself as being the centre of the scene thus described in the Apocalypse?
Second, He gave them power. Is not Jesus here repeating what had been done for Him at His baptism: conveying super-human power? Who can give this power that is strong enough to make even demons obey? No one less than God surely.
Third, note that the message which He committed to the twelve concerned matters of life and death. Not to receive that message would be equivalent to the rejection of the Father.
Fourth, all this is to be done in His name, and for His name's sake. Fidelity to Jesus is that on which the final destiny of men depends. Everything rises or falls in its relation to Him. Could such words be uttered and there be no consciousness on the part of the speaker of a unique relationship to the Father and the things of eternity? Know you of anything bolder than this?
Fifth, He calls upon men to sacrifice their tenderest affections for Him. He is to be chosen before even father and mother (Matt. 10:34-39).
e) As Revealed in the Sermon on the Mount.
Matt. 5-7; Luke 6:20-49. Two references will be sufficient here. Who is this that dares to set Himself up as superior to Moses and the law of Moses, by saying, “But I say unto you”? Then, again, listen to Christ as He proclaims Himself to be the judge of all men at the last day (Matt. 7:21). Could Jesus say all this without having any consciousness of His unique relationship to all these things? Assuredly not.
—Great Doctrines of the Bible, The

Pre-existence and Eternality of Christ

The eternality and deity of Christ are inseparably linked together. Those who deny His eternality also deny His deity. If the deity of Christ is established, there is no problem in
accepting His eternality.
Direct Proof
New Testament. There are numerous passages in the New Testament which explicitly affirm the eternality of Jesus Christ.
(1) John 1:1. The word “was” in the phrase, “In the beginning was the Word,” is the Greek hen, the imperfect tense that stresses continual existence in past time. The phrase could thus be translated, “In the beginning the Word was continually existing.” John’s beginning probably goes back to the origin of the universe; John indicates that however far back one goes, the Word was continuously existing.
(2) John 8:58. Although Abraham lived two thousand years before Christ, He could say, “before Abraham was born, I am.” Although Jesus was born in Bethlehem, He claimed to have existed before Abraham. The tense is again important to notice. Before Abraham was born, Christ was continuously existing. The statement “I am,” of course, is also a reference to His deity and a claim of equality with Yahweh. “I am” is a reference to Exodus in which God identifies Himself as “I AM WHO I AM.”
(3) Hebrews 1:8. In verse 8 the writer of Hebrews begins a series of Old Testament quotations. The preface to those statements is, “But of the Son He says,” hence, the statements that follow refer to Christ. Therefore, the statement, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,” is a reference to the eternality of Christ.

(4) Colossians 1:17. Paul states, “He is before all things,” stressing once more eternality and pre-existence of Christ through the use of the present tense.
Old Testament.
(1) Micah 5:2. This statement emphasizes that “His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” Although Jesus was born in Bethlehem (prophesied in this verse), that was not His beginning; He has existed “from the days of eternity.”
(2) Isaiah 9:6. Christ is called the “Eternal Father.” This does not mean Christ is the Father, because they are two distinct Persons within the Trinity. It does mean that Christ also possesses the title of Father. The designation suggests both His pre-existence and eternality.
Indirect proof.
(1) Christ’s heavenly origin proves His eternal existence. John 3:13 stresses that Christ “descended from heaven.” If Christ came down from heaven then Bethlehem cannot have been His beginning. This verse indicates He dwelt in heaven before coming to earth, therefore, He is eternal (cf. John 6:38).
(2) Christ’s preincarnate work proves His eternal existence. John 1:3 says that Christ created all things (“all” is emphatic). If He created all things then He must be eternal (cf. 1 Cor. 8:6).
(3) Christ’s titles prove His eternal existence. (a) Yahweh. In John 12:41 the apostle says that Isaiah saw “His glory,” a reference to Christ in the context. John, however, quoted from Isaiah 6:10 where He is clearly referring to Yahweh (cf. Isa. 6:3, 5). John thus equates Jesus with Yahweh, the Lord of the Old Testament; because Yahweh is eternal then Jesus is eternal, (b) Adonai. In Matthew 22:44 Christ quotes Psalm 110:1, “The Lord said to My Lord,” and applies it to Himself. The term “Lord” is Adonai, one of the Old Testament names of God. If Christ is designated Adonai, then He is eternal, for God is eternal.
(4) The theophanies prove His eternal existence. A theophany may be defined thus: “It is the Second Person of the Trinity who appears thus in human form…The One of the three who is called LORD, or Jahweh, in the incident recorded in Genesis 18, is to be taken to be the Second Person of the Trinity.” The identification of Christ with the appearances of the angel of the Lord (the theophany) can be demonstrated in the following manner. The angel of the Lord is recognized as deity, He is referred to as God (Judg. 6:11, 14; note in verse 11 He is called “angel of the Lord,” while in v. 14 He is called “Lord”). The angel of the Lord in other instances is distinct from Yahweh because He talks to Yahweh (Zech. 1:11; 3:1-2; cf. Gen. 24:7). The angel of the Lord could not have been the Spirit or the Father, because neither the Spirit nor the Father are ever revealed in physical form (cf. John 1:18). The angel of the Lord no longer appears after the incarnation of Christ. There is no mention of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament; He ceases to appear after the birth of Christ.
Deity of Christ
Meaning of Christ’s Deity
During the early centuries of the church there were groups that denied the true humanity of Christ. But the reverse is the emphasis today. In the past two hundred years liberal theology has vigorously expressed a denial of Christ’s deity. Yet C. S. Lewis was correct when he said that the only options available concerning the Person of Christ were: He was a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Considering the enormous claims that Christ made, it would be impossible simply to designate Him a “good teacher.” He claimed to be much more than a teacher.
To affirm that Christ is God is not simply to suggest He is “God-like.” Christ is absolutely equal with the Father in His Person and His work. Christ is undiminished deity. In commenting on the phrase “(Christ) existed in the form of God” in Philippians 2:6, B. B. Warfield says. “He is declared, in the most express manner possible, to be all that God is, to possess the whole fulness of attributes which make God God.”
Importance of Christ’s Deity

An attack on the deity of Jesus Christ is an attack on the bedrock of Christianity. At the heart of orthodox belief is the recognition that Christ died a substitutionary death to provide salvation for a lost humanity. If Jesus were only a man He could not have died to save the world, but because of His deity, His death had infinite value whereby He could die for the entire world.

Teaching of Christ’s Deity

The Scriptures are replete with the personal claims of Christ as well as the testimony of others concerning His deity. The gospel of John is particularly rich in its emphasis on Christ’s deity.
His names.
(1) God. In Hebrews 1:8ff. the writer states the superiority of Christ to angels and ascribes Psalm 45:6-7 to Christ. The superscription to the quotation from Psalm 45:6-7 is, “But of the Son He says”; then He quotes the psalm saying, “Thy throne, O God is forever” and “therefore God.” Both designations “God” have reference to the Son (Heb. 1:8). Upon seeing the resurrected Christ with His wounds displayed, Thomas confessed, “My Lord and My God” (John 20:28). (Some who reject Christ’s deity amazingly suggest that Thomas’ statement was an outburst of profanity.) Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus as “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” The Granville Sharpe rule of Greek grammar states that when two nouns are joined by kai (and) and the first noun has the article and the second does not, then the two nouns refer to the same thing. Hence, “great God” and “Savior” both refer to “Christ Jesus.” John 1:18 declares that “the only begotten God”—a reference to Christ—has explained the Father.
(2) Lord. In Christ’s debate with the Pharisees He demonstrated that Messiah was greater than simply a descendant of David. He reminded them that David himself called Messiah “my Lord” (Matt. 22:44). In Romans 10:9, 13 Paul refers to Jesus as Lord. In verse 9 he emphasizes that it is recognition of Jesus as Lord (deity) that results in salvation. In verse 13 Paul quotes from Joel 2:32, where the reference concerns the Lord; but Paul applies it to Jesus, affirming Christ’s equality with Yahweh of the Old Testament. In He brews 1:10 the writer applies Psalm 102:25 to Christ, calling Him “Lord.”
(3) Son of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God on a number of occasions (cf. John 5:25). This name for Christ is frequently misunderstood; some suggest it means the Son is inferior to the Father. The Jews, however, understood the claim Christ was making; but saying He was the Son of God the Jews said He was “making Himself equal with God” (John 5:19).
His attr
ibutes.
(1) Eternal. John 1:1 affirms the eternality of Christ. The verb “was” (Gk. imperfect hen) suggests His continuous existence in time past. In Hebrews 1:11-12 the writer applies Psalm 102:25-27, expressing the eternality of God, to Christ.
(2) Omnipresent. In Matthew 28:20 Christ promised the disciples, “I am with you always.” Recognizing that Christ has a human nature as well as a divine nature, it should be stated that in His humanity He is localized in heaven, but in His deity He is omnipresent. Christ’s indwelling of every believer demands that He is omnipresent (cf. John 14:23; Eph. 3:17; Col. 1:27; Rev. 3:20).
(3) Omniscient. Jesus knew what was in the heart of man and therefore did not entrust Himself to man (John 2:25). He told the Samaritan woman her past history even though He had not met her previously (John 4:18). His disciples recognized His omniscience (John 16:30). His numerous predictions of His death demonstrate His omniscience (cf. Matt. 16:21; 17:22; 20:18-19; 26:1-2).
(4) Omnipotent. Jesus had all authority of heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). He had the power to forgive sins—something only God can do (cf. Mark 2:5, 7, 10; Isa. 43:25; 55:7).
(5) Immutable. Christ does not change; He is forever the same (Heb. 13:8). This is an attribute of deity (Mal. 3:6; James 1:17).
(6) Life. All creation—humanity, animals, plants—are alive because they have been infused with life. Christ is different. He has life in Himself; it is not a derived life, but He is life (John 1:4; 14:6; cf. Ps. 36:9; Jer. 2:13).
His works.
(1) Creator. John states that there is nothing that has come into being apart from Christ’s creating it (John 1:3). Colossians 1:16 teaches that Christ created not only the earth but also the heavens and the angelic realm.
(2) Sustainer. Colossians 1:17 teaches that Christ is the cohesive force of the universe. Hebrews 1:3 suggests Christ “carries all things forward on their appointed course.” This is the force of the Greek participle pheron.
(3) Forgiver of sin. Only God can forgive sin; the fact that Jesus forgave sin demonstrates His deity (cf. Mark 2:1-12; Isa. 43:25).
(4) Miracle worker. The miracles of Christ were an attestation of His deity. It is a valuable study to note the miracles of Christ and see the claim of deity underlying the miracle. For example, when Jesus gave sight to the blind man, the people would have been reminded of Psalm 146:8. “The Lord opens the eyes of the blind.”
He receives worship. It is a fundamental truth of Scripture that only God is to be worshiped (Deut. 6:13; 10:20; Matt. 4:10; Acts 10:25-26). The fact that Jesus receives the worship of people is a strong attestation to His deity. In John 5:23 Jesus said that He was to be accorded honor and reverence just as people honor the Father. If Jesus were not God, this statement would be utterly blasphemous. In the benediction of 2 Corinthians 13:14, the blessing of the triune God is accorded the believer. The manner of the benediction suggests the equality of the persons. At the triumphal entry Jesus applied the chanting of the young people to Himself by quoting Psalm 8:2, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hast prepared praise Thyself” (Matt. 21:16). Psalm 8 is addressed to Yahweh and describes the worship rendered to Him; Jesus applies that same worship to Himself. When the blind man who had been healed by Jesus met Him and discovered who Jesus was, the healed man worshiped Him (John 9:38). That Jesus did not reject the man’s worship indicates He is God. In 2 Timothy 4:18 Paul refers to Jesus as Lord and ascribes glory to Him. Glory refers to the Shekinah of God and pertains only to deity. In Philippians 2:10 Paul envisions a future day wherein all in earth and heaven will worship Christ.
—Moody Handbook of Theology, The

John commences the prologue of his Gospel with revelation of the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). B. F. Westcott observes that here John carries our thought beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. The verb “was” (Gk. en, the imperfect of eimi, “to be”) appears three times in this verse, and by the use of this verse the apostle conveys the concept that neither God nor the Logos has a beginning; their existence together has been and is continuous.
The second part of the verse continues, “And the Word was with God [pros ton theon].” The Logos has existed with God in perfect fellowship throughout all eternity. The word pros (with) reveals the intimate “face to face” relationship the Father and the Son have always shared. John's final phrase is a clear declaration of the deity of the Word:”And the Word was God.”
John continues to tell us, by revelation, that the Word entered the plane of history (John 1:14) as Jesus of Nazareth: himself “God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side” and who has made the Father known (John 1:18). The New Testament further reveals that because He has shared in God's glory from all eternity (John 17:5), Jesus Christ is the object of worship reserved only for God:”At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:10-11; see also Ex. 20:3; Isa. 45:23; Heb. 1:8).
The eternal Word, Jesus Christ, is the one through whom God the Father created all things (John 1:3; Rev. 3:14). Jesus identifies himself as the sovereign “I am” (John 8:58; cf. Ex. 3:14). We note in John 8:59 that the Jews were moved to pick up stones and kill Jesus because of this claim. They tried to do the same later, following His claim in John 10:30, “'I and the Father are one.'” The Jews who heard Him considered Jesus a blasphemer, “'You, a mere man, claim to be God'” (John 10:33; cf. John 5:18).
Paul identifies Jesus as the God of providence:”He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Col. 1:17). Jesus is the “Mighty God” who will reign as King on David's throne and make it eternal (Isa. 9:6-7). His knowledge is perfect and complete. Peter addressed our Lord:”'Lord, you know all things'” (John 21:17). Christ himself said, “'No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him'” (Matt. 11:27; cf. John 10:15).
Jesus is now everywhere present (Matt. 18:20) and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). He shares with the Father the title “the First and the Last, and He is “the Alpha and the Omega” (Rev. 1:17; 22:13). Jesus is our Redeemer and Savior (John 3:16-17; Heb. 9:28; 1 John 2:2), our Life and Light (John 1:4), our Shepherd (John 10:14; 1 Pet. 5:4), our Justifier, (Rom. 5:1) and the soon-coming “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (Rev. 19:16). Jesus is Truth (John 14:6) and the Comforter whose comfort and help overflows into our lives (2 Cor. 1:5). Isaiah further calls Him our “Counselor” (Isa. 9:6), and He is the Rock (Rom. 9:33; 1 Cor. 10:4). He is holy (Luke 1:35), and He dwells within those who call upon His name (Rom. 10:9-10; Eph. 3:17).
All that can be said of God the Father, can be said of Jesus Christ. “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Col. 2:9); “God over all, forever praised!” (Rom. 9:5). Jesus spoke of His full equality with the Father:”'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father… I am in the Father, and… the Father in me'” (John 14:9-10).
—Systematic Theology Stanley Horton

more on the way…

just let me thank everyone from the non-trinitarian perspective, your questions have caused me to dig deep into the Scriptures and every time I do, I come away more convinced that the Scriptures teach the doctrine of the Trinity…

blessings,
ken

blessings,
ken

[SEEKING]

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 22 2009,07:09)

Quote

5. DIVINE ATTRIBUTES ARE POSSESSED BY HIM. a) Omnipotence. Matt 28:18—”All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Mat 20:23 (ESV) He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Mark 10:40 (KJV)
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Quote

b) Omniscience. John 16:30—”Now are we sure that thou knowest all things.” 2:24; Matt. 24; 25; Col. 2:3. Illustrations: John 4:16-19; Mark 2:8; John 1:48. “Our Lord always leaves the impression that He knew all things in detail, both past and future, and that this knowledge comes from His original perception of the events. He does not learn them by acquisition.

Mat 24:36 (ESV) “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

[kerwin]

So according to those who believe Jesus is God, Matthew 28:18 states God was given power.  

I wonder who has the authority to give God power?  

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…… As i said before you can find anything to meet your theology, if you try hard enough.

Mat 25:32….> And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divides his Sheep from the goats.

You have inserted individuals for nations. As i said before even murders visit their sick friends , and visit there friends when they are in Jail. So in your and Nick's theologies these murders who visit them will be saved, and this is the bases Jesus will Judge individuals by, right. Simple logic would tell you that does not make sense. (It;s the Nation he is dealing with not individuals) Individuals require more intense Judgments. Nations who had mercy on other nations such as the US , England, Etc are counted as Sheep and Nations that take no pity on other Nations and offer to help them will be destroyed IMO , Your changing of the text to fit Individuals will not fly. I am not saying that individuals don't visit the sick and take in the poor as we should all do. But thats not the whole criteria of their Judgment, ” For many shall come unto me and say Lord look at all these good works we have did in YOUR name , and I shall profess unto them , depart from me you (WORKER) of iniquity. He did not deny there (GOOD WORKS) did He. Nations that have had mercy on other nation are considered as Sheep in the millennium reign of Christ. IMO

Don't know what the rest of you post is to prove because they all show it is of GOD the FATHER as i have said. I am not in disagreement with those posts.

love and peace to you……………………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2009,03:58)

So according to those who believe Jesus is God, Matthew 28:18 states God was given power.   I wonder who has the authority to give God power?

Hi Kerwin

You just rebuked Gene for not interpreting scripture with scripture or pitting scripture against scripture and now you do this same thing by interpreting Matt 28 without Phil 2:6-8 or John 1:1, or John 20:28, or 2 Peter 1:1, or Heb 1:8 Etc

WJ

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene @ April 23 2009,05:27)

Kerwin…… As i said before you can find anything to meet your theology, if you try hard enough. Mat 25:32….> And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divides his Sheep from the goats. You have inserted individuals for nations.  As i said before even murders visit their sick friends , and visit there friends when they are in Jail. So in your and Nick's theologies these murders who visit them will be saved, and this is the bases Jesus will Judge individuals by, right.  Simple logic would tell you that does not make sense. (It;s the Nation he is dealing with not individuals) Individuals require more intense Judgments.  Nations who had mercy on other nations such as the US , England, Etc are counted as Sheep and Nations that take no pity on other Nations and offer to help them will be destroyed IMO ,  Your changing of the text to fit Individuals will not fly.  I am not saying that individuals don't visit the sick and take in the poor as we should all do. But thats not the whole criteria of their Judgment, ” For many shall come unto me and say Lord look at all these good works we have did in YOUR name , and I shall profess unto them , depart from me you (WORKER) of iniquity. He did not deny there (GOOD WORKS) did He. Nations that have had mercy on other nation are considered as Sheep in the millennium reign of Christ. IMO Don't know what the rest of you post is to prove because they all show it is of GOD the FATHER as i have said. I am not in disagreement with those posts. love and peace to you……………………….gene

G,
Why would you argue with Scripture and God Who wrote it though men?

[kerwin]

Gene wrote:

Quote

You have inserted individuals for nations.

You make an error in both your accusation and your translation.   The error in your accusation is that I did accurately quote the New International Version whose choice in words you disagree with.  Whether your accusation is true of them or not I do not know but it is in error when directed at me.  I do know that God judges us as individuals and not as nations as you propose.  

Your clearly evident “error” in translation is you chose to replace “them” with nations.  I can see your reasoning for doing that but I also see the reason for the New International Version translators making their selection.  I attempted to find the Greek word in dispute but was unable to do so.  I do want to point out that people seems to make more sense unless you regard “nation” Greek “ethnos” as meaning “a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus” in which case “ethnos” would probably better be translated “peoples” and “their” left as it is in the King James Version.

Gene wrote:

Quote

Simple logic would tell you that does not make sense.

Simple logic tells me Jesus is dealing with groups (nations) of sheep (the righteous) and goats (the wicked) which is why I chose the definition of “ethnos” I did.  Of course Jesus also speaks of separating two groups from one another and placing one on his right hand and the other on his left hand before rendering justice.

Matthew 25:33(NIV) reads:

Quote

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Gene wrote:

Quote

He did not deny there (GOOD WORKS) did He.

This statement just displays lack of knowledge of the effects of the Spirit.  You cannot live by both the Spirit and the flesh.  You must choose one.  You are either pursuing righteousness and you are pursuing wickedness and the sheep fall into the earlier category while the goats fall into the later.  I assure you there are goat no matter how much you try to spin in order to deny they exist.

Gene wrote:

Quote

Don't know what the rest of you post is to prove because they all show it is of GOD the FATHER as i have said. I am not in disagreement with those posts.

I notice of the six proofs I presented you only object to one and that because you did not like the translators choice of words.  In that you failed to explain why you find the NIV translators choice wrong but just insisted the translation you liked was right.  

I obtained those proofs by doing a search of the NIV for the words “eternal life” and filtered the results to those that  referred to Jesus’ teachings or other appropriate ideas.

As I said elsewhere I realize you find the fact that some will perish to be an unpleasant truth and so deny it.   Until you are willing to accept that unpleasant truth there is nothing I can do for you and when and if you are willing to accept it I will be unnecessary as God will lead you further in His truth.  

I will leave your with this encouragement; It is worth facing this and every unpleasant truth because God is just and loving.

Here is my source for “ethnos”.

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

You just rebuked Gene for not interpreting scripture with scripture or pitting scripture against scripture and now you do this same thing by interpreting Matt 28 without Phil 2:6-8 or John 1:1, or John 20:28, or 2 Peter 1:1, or Heb 1:8 Etc

Rather I choose not to take the strange twists and turns in interpretation that those who want to believe Jesus is God must make such as Jesus was created before Jesus was created in his mother's womb or God stopped being God while Jesus was on earth so we had no God while Jesus was on earth.  I have to admit that is some mind bending spin but the idea that someone is three people but one individual is mind bending in its own right.  You would think such contortion would be painful, never mind fatal, but those who choose to believe them do not seem to mind.  That is their choice and the results of that choice is between them and God but I do find their spin humorous in a way.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2009,16:15)

Hi E, Thanks but scripture speaks without help.

then I will ask you to post nothing and absolutely nothing but the scriptures, because I don't care to hear or read you editorializing… or maybe you can't just post the scriptures, can you N? Then don't be a hypocrite and ask others to do what yourself are not willing to do… but lets see N…. can you do it…? Lets see if you can just post the Scriptures and nothing else…

riiigghhhtttttt…..

blessings,
ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,06:08)

Quote (Gene @ April 23 2009,05:27) Kerwin…… As i said before you can find anything to meet your theology, if you try hard enough. Mat 25:32….> And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divides his Sheep from the goats. You have inserted individuals for nations.  As i said before even murders visit their sick friends , and visit there friends when they are in Jail. So in your and Nick's theologies these murders who visit them will be saved, and this is the bases Jesus will Judge individuals by, right.  Simple logic would tell you that does not make sense. (It;s the Nation he is dealing with not individuals) Individuals require more intense Judgments.  Nations who had mercy on other nations such as the US , England, Etc are counted as Sheep and Nations that take no pity on other Nations and offer to help them will be destroyed IMO ,  Your changing of the text to fit Individuals will not fly.  I am not saying that individuals don't visit the sick and take in the poor as we should all do. But thats not the whole criteria of their Judgment, ” For many shall come unto me and say Lord look at all these good works we have did in YOUR name , and I shall profess unto them , depart from me you (WORKER) of iniquity. He did not deny there (GOOD WORKS) did He. Nations that have had mercy on other nation are considered as Sheep in the millennium reign of Christ. IMO Don't know what the rest of you post is to prove because they all show it is of GOD the FATHER as i have said. I am not in disagreement with those posts. love and peace to you……………………….gene G, Why would you argue with Scripture and God Who wrote it though men?

I ask that you only post scriptures N….

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
I realise it is difficult to come out from behind the many scholars whose words you love but eventually you will meet the only one whose words matter and then the experts will be of no help.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2009,03:58)

So according to those who believe Jesus is God, Matthew 28:18 states God was given power.   I wonder who has the authority to give God power?

Mt 28:18 (ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Jesus, the Scriptures say, emptied Himself and condescended to take on the form of a servant… therefore, as this servant He placed Himself in subjection to the Father's will. In that sense He is subject to the Father, in that sense. As the suffering servant, as the One who came to die on the Cross, as the one who bore the weight of the sins of the elect Bride, as the one who condescended to be born in the most humble of circumstances, etc etc etc, He was given power. As long as you remember that Christ Jesus was both God and man, and that He had a role to play in the salvation of God's people, a role that He submitted to of His own accord, you will not create imaginary conundrums that are supposedly profound objections, something N has made a fine art of doing btw, but which are, in reality, merely straw man that are so easily knocked over.

blessings,
ken

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Was he man and also the God of whom he said he was the Son?

John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,13:49)

Hi E, I realise it is difficult to come out from behind the many scholars whose words you love but eventually you will meet the only one whose words matter and then the experts will be of no help.

I see no scripture in your post, therefore what you are saying is merely man's opinion and is therefore worthless. You are hiding behind your own fallible sinful human words, words that you love, but eventually you will meet the only one whose words matter, and then your words will be of no help.

blessings,
ken

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Yes even my words you copy.
Are you able to stand alone and dare to search scripture without other men to guide you?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene @ April 22 2009,08:23)

Adam…………Amen, Amen, Amen, brother you have as Jodi would say Nailed it brother, Thanks, I knew God was with you from the very start brother, i could see His Spirit in you my brother. Now continue in the Spirit and give us what It Shows you, it is giving you strong and sound reasoning, For the edification of our Lord Jesus and His and our GOD, the FATHER. Love and peace to you and yours……………………gene

Thank you very much brother Gene. I know you are often being targetted here in this Heaven Net. People are sticking to their own dogma/theory that's why it is very difficult to change them.

Be of good cheer.
Love and peace to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2009,03:58)

[/quote] kerwin,April wrote: So according to those who believe Jesus is God, Matthew 28:18 states God was given power.   I wonder who has the authority to give God power?

Exactly.

Some haven't thought it through very deeply.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,14:08)

Hi E, Yes even my words you copy. Are you able to stand alone and dare to search scripture without other men to guide you?

there is no scripture in your post at all Nick, therefore I have to say that you are writing merely the words of a sinful fallen man and there can be no truth in them….

blessings,
ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 23 2009,17:14)

Quote (Gene @ April 22 2009,08:23) Adam…………Amen, Amen, Amen, brother you have as Jodi would say Nailed it brother, Thanks, I knew God was with you from the very start brother, i could see His Spirit in you my brother. Now continue in the Spirit and give us what It Shows you, it is giving you strong and sound reasoning, For the edification of our Lord Jesus and His and our GOD, the FATHER. Love and peace to you and yours……………………gene Thank you very much brother Gene. I know you are often being targetted here in this Heaven Net. People are sticking to their own dogma/theory that's why it is very difficult to change them. Be of good cheer. Love and peace to you Adam

“Brother Gene” is every bit as dogmatic about his beliefs as anyone else…. in other words it is as difficult to get him (or maybe you?) to change as it is for anyone else…. the real point is that apparently you think that those who disagree with him need to do the changing, versus he (and you?) who need the changing….

blessings,
ken

[epistemaniac]

Quote (t8 @ April 23 2009,23:06)

Quote (kerwin @ April 23 2009,03:58) [/quote] kerwin,April wrote: So according to those who believe Jesus is God, Matthew 28:18 states God was given power.   I wonder who has the authority to give God power?   Exactly. Some haven't thought it through very deeply.

ohhhh!!! roflol…. everyone who disagrees with you has not thought about the issues very deeply… I see!! lol….. there is no chance, apparently, that some could think about the issues deeply and arrive at different conclusions than yourself!!!

blessings,
ken

[Author]

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