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Gen So if it says that Jesus was in John 1:1-5 is all a plan? And Col. 1:15-17 was a plan? Rev. 3:24 was a plan? Abd the glory He had with the Father in John 17:5 was a plan? It could have fooled me!!!!!!
IreneQuote (gollamudi @ April 13 2009,18:26) Hi brother T8,
Thanks for your reply on my post above. So you believe God created Jesus first before all creation ? If so what was he? Whether a god, demi-god, angel, spirit or a man?Our Bible never discloses his(Jesus') pre-existence so clearly as you and other brothers think here. Even Jesus himself never came in such details about his pre-existence. Paul says in 1Cor 15 that natural man(Adam) is first and the spiritual man(Jesus) is later. If so where is the question of pre-existence of Jesus the man in the Bible. And Hebrews 1 says God spoke to us through His son only in these last days not earlier than that. If so where was this pre-existence and in what form my brother?
Please explain to us.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
He was the Logos that was with God and whom God made all things through. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the Word of God now too.T8 wrote:
Quote He was the Logos that was with God and whom God made all things through. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the Word of God now too.
Where does scripture say that Jesus is the Logos that was with God and is God? Do you believe it is implied by certain scriptures? On the other hand it does implicitly say that God dwells within him.
Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2009,18:03) T8 wrote: Quote He was the Logos that was with God and whom God made all things through. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the Word of God now too.
Where does scripture say that Jesus is the Logos that was with God and is God? Do you believe it is implied by certain scriptures? On the other hand it does implicitly say that God dwells within him.
The Word was with God…And the Word became flesh and we beheld his glory…
God made all things through him and for him…
He returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began…
Glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord before all ages and now and forever more…
I take it that you disagree with these scriptures?
It does not say Christ so therefore you are assuming word means Christ. In reality if you check most dictionaries word does not mean Christ.
Quote (Cindy @ April 14 2009,15:50) Gen So if it says that Jesus was in John 1:1-5 is all a plan? And Col. 1:15-17 was a plan? Rev. 3:24 was a plan? Abd the glory He had with the Father in John 17:5 was a plan? It could have fooled me!!!!!!
Irene
exactly… especially apt are Jesus' words that the glory that He had with the Father PRIOR to incarnation would be restored to Him…. now it seems a little ridiculous to speak of a being that did not even exist as possessing glory, and not just any kind of glory, but the very glory of God, the glory with which He will one day return.John 17:5 (ESV) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. “
A non-existent being does not have capacity to do anything, including possess glory.
blessings,
kenQuote (kerwin @ April 14 2009,19:18) It does not say Christ so therefore you are assuming word means Christ. In reality if you check most dictionaries word does not mean Christ.
Kerwin………You are right on this one , Does anyone see the word (Jesus) written there (NO) so to force the text to make it so is corruption of scripture by anyone means. They can't even reason that if John met Jesus He simply would have said Jesus. But mystery religions force people to believe things that are (NOT) written. Then spend endless illogical reasonings to try to justify their contrived religions. “Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”, we are told to come out of Her that we recieve not of (HER) plagues, that plague is the plague of confusion. Which Trinitarians and Preexistences Have. IMOlove and peace to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ April 15 2009,14:18) Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2009,19:18) It does not say Christ so therefore you are assuming word means Christ. In reality if you check most dictionaries word does not mean Christ.
Kerwin………You are right on this one , Does anyone see the word (Jesus) written there (NO) so to force the text to make it so is corruption of scripture by anyone means. They can't even reason that if John met Jesus He simply would have said Jesus. But mystery religions force people to believe things that are (NOT) written. Then spend endless illogical reasonings to try to justify their contrived religions. “Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”, we are told to come out of Her that we recieve not of (HER) plagues, that plague is the plague of confusion. Which Trinitarians and Preexistences Have. IMOlove and peace to you and yours…………………………….gene
Hi Gene“AND THOMAS ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM, *MY LORD AND MY GOD*“. John 20:28
“Does anyone see the word (Father) written there (NO) so to force the text to make it so is corruption of scripture by anyone means”.
Why do you not apply your own demands for interpretation on yourself?
Wake up Gene. For Babylon which is “confusion” is also in you. God is calling all of his people to come out of confusion or man made religion and doctrines that are not of him. Religion is not just found in manmade organizations as you suppose but is found in the hearts of everyone that entertains a religous Spirit which produces false doctrine. Unless you have “Perfect doctrine” that means you too!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Thomas was there when Jesus was teaching about his unity with God in Jn14.
He recognised God and the vesselQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,17:34) Hi WJ,
Thomas was there when Jesus was teaching about his unity with God in Jn14.
He recognised God and the vessel
NHWhat do you say about inference, NH?
But it doesnt say “AND THOMAS ANSWERED AND “SAID UNTO THEM“
It says…AND THOMAS ANSWERED AND “SAID UNTO HIM“
WJ
Hi WJ,
So?
Mk1
23And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,24Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Where do you think Jesus was facing when he said this?
The spirit was within the human vessel.Also
“Get behind me Satan”Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,17:45) Hi WJ,
So?
Mk1
23And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,24Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Where do you think Jesus was facing when he said this?
The spirit was within the human vessel.Also
“Get behind me Satan”
NHMore inference! Believe the scriptures!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,18:16) Hi WJ,
Indeed we do,
God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5.19]
Hi NHYes and Jesus was in the Father.
So what is your point? That the Father is not God?
WJ
WJ……….You bring up an interesting point< Please explain (HOW) Jesus was in the Father and the Father in Jesus, and HOW they are also in us. This I believe is very important to understand brother, may even require another thread.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………..gene
as long as there is no confusion in that the way Jesus was in the Father is not the same way that they are in us, or we are in them, then the discussion might be profitable. However, too often anti-Trinitarians insist on something foreign to the Scriptures, namely that what is true of Jesus' relationship to the Father must be exactly the same as God's relationship to believers.
As to the how re Jesus was in the Father, and a way that obviously shows that the 2 relationships (God to us, us to God) are not always and exhaustively the same consider…
2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV) to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”God is “in” believers, but that does not mean that believers are one with God in the same way that Jesus and God the Father are, otherwise we would have the rather strange case of humans reconciling themselves to God by virtue of their unity with Christ. God was “in” Christ in a profoundly different way then the believer experiences by virtue of their relationship of being “in Christ”.
blessings,
kenepistemaniac wrote:
Quote as long as there is no confusion in that the way Jesus was in the Father is not the same way that they are in us, or we are in them
Then you must think Jesus is confused since he asked God that those that believed in him would be one with God as he is one with God.
John 17:21-23(NIV) reads:
Quote that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
epistemaniac wrote:
Quote However, too often anti-Trinitarians insist on something foreign to the Scriptures, namely that what is true of Jesus' relationship to the Father must be exactly the same as God's relationship to believers.
Trinitarians both deny Jesus is the Messiah (a human) by calling him God and they deny God is not tempted by by calling Him Jesus. Still this is good since they fulfill the prophecy that “God's name will be blasphemed among the Gentiles.” They try some irrational spin to explain their corrupt beliefs but it is irrational spin. Still that is their choice and like me they will be held accountable for the choices they make whether good or evil.
Jesus is the King of everything in heaven and on earth and so it is through belief in him that we can obtain the true righteousness that is like God's. That is our relationship to Jesus. His relationship to God is that He completely and totally loves God and so still has and had had a complete faith in God from the time he was in His mother's womb. The result of His complete faith is that God put His Spirit within Jesus just as it is written:
Isaiah 42:1(NIV) reads:
Quote “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.”E……..Brother why would it not be the same as in us as in Jesus, Jesus said “thy kingdom come thy WILL be done. If that (ONE) WILL is to be done then it must be the same in Us as in Jesus. right? One GOD in (ALL) and Through (ALL) Right? I see no difference between GOD being in Jesus and In us, same GOD, same influence, same Spirit, same WILL. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………..gene
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