Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“Jesus is the premier of prophets; who has the Spirit of God living within his flesh through his faith unlike the prophets that before Him. “

But Scripture says

1Peter1
10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Indeed Jesus was the great prophet expected by the Jews.

But none of the other prophets had this testiimony given them from God's spirit in John.

Jn3
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nck……….Except the knowledge of Jesus' return he withheld from Him, So to say He gave Him (all) things is incorrect, He did however put all things (under Him) that is to say authority, except himself of course. And even to say one is given anything shows he did not once have it. I fail to see what you are saying has anything to do with what Kerwin was talking about.

love and peace to you………………………………….gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene @ April 10 2009,03:19)

T8……read a good Greek text on these scriptures. Please note that I have added in the capitals to make a point only. love and peace to you……………………………………………..gene

So you need to add DIDN'T/NOT to get the Greek, because you just deny everything that they are saying to say these instead.

Philippians 2:6-11 reads:
6 who, although He DIDNT existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 AND DIDN'T emptied Himself (BECAUSE HE DIDN'T EXIST AT THIS POINT), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he DIDN'T make the universe.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I DIDN'T EXIST“

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am NOT the Root BUT ONLY the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

John 1:3
Through THE THOUGHT OF HIM EXISTING all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:17
He is NOT before all things, and in him all things DON'Thold together RATHER THE VERY THOUGHT OF HIM EXISTING IN THE FUTURE, SO THAT ALL THINGS IN CREATION PAST WERE HELD TOGETHER BY THE THOUGH OF HIM BEING CREATED IN ZERO AD OR THEREABOUT.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, NOT before all ages, BUT now and forevermore! Amen.

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (BUT NOT LITERALLY/ONLY AS ONE WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LITERAL ONE).
16 For NOT by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things WEREN'T created by him and for him.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” I.E ZERO AD OR THEREABOUTS

Ignoring the additions butchering these scriptures for a moment, from what I can see Gene, you actually agree with above as statements. Am I right?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2009,07:07)

You might want to consider your interpretation because the Hebrews went by scripture where it clearly states there is no god besides the Father. We know that God is not confused so His words do contradict one another.

The Father is God because he is the source of all things, even the Logos came from him, and it is a no brainer that the son came from him. I/We are not arguing for 2 existing together forever in eternity past, but that all came from the Father, and the first was the one we know as the son of God.

The Father is the one true God. Jesus is the first-born of all creation.

It doesn't have to be more complicated that that.

It is written.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ April 11 2009,10:52)

Quote (Gene @ April 10 2009,03:19) T8……read a good Greek text on these scriptures. Please note that I have added in the capitals to make a point only. love and peace to you……………………………………………..gene So you need to add DIDN'T/NOT to get the Greek, because you just deny everything that they are saying to say these instead. Philippians 2:6-11 reads: 6 who, although He DIDNT existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 AND DIDN'T emptied Himself (BECAUSE HE DIDN'T EXIST AT THIS POINT), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Hebrews 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he DIDN'T make the universe. John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I DIDN'T EXIST“ Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am NOT the Root BUT ONLY the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” John 1:3 Through THE THOUGHT OF HIM EXISTING all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Colossians 1:17 He is NOT before all things, and in him all things DON'Thold together RATHER THE VERY THOUGHT OF HIM EXISTING IN THE FUTURE, SO THAT ALL THINGS IN CREATION PAST WERE HELD TOGETHER BY THE THOUGH OF HIM BEING CREATED IN ZERO AD OR THEREABOUT. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, NOT before all ages, BUT now and forevermore! Amen. Colossians 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (BUT NOT LITERALLY/ONLY AS ONE WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LITERAL ONE). 16 For NOT by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things WEREN'T created by him and for him. Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” I.E ZERO AD OR THEREABOUTS Ignoring the additions butchering these scriptures for a moment, from what I can see Gene, you actually agree with above as statements. Am I right?

True!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….You have way over exaggerated what i Said I said the word (existed) in the Greek text reads (Existing) a present tense word where the text makes it appear as a Past tens word. Just tell me if you find this to be true or not and then present you argument . Why do trinitarians and Preexistences all have the same attitudes. If you and WJ want to make JOHN Say Jesus when He didn't or use the word existed instead of existing , Which is contrary to scriptures then why don't you both get angry with yourselves when you change the words written to meet your false teaching of the Trinity and Preexistences of Jesus.

Again Show me ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS “JESUS PREEXISTED BEFORE HIS BERTH”, SHOW ME ONE APOSTLE WHO SAID HE DID, , You cant , bit I will show you an Apostle who said He was foreordained (BUT) was (MANIFESTED)  in our time.  Or maybe you or WJ could offer us who his mane was and what he was doing in this preexisting life  and Glory you claim . Did they call Him Super J or Arch of the Arch angels, or head of the demigods or WHAT? Not to mention what POINT would there be in GOD doing it that way which neither of you have ever addresses, what would it demonstrate to us all if a already perfect begin or demigod , came and walked perfectly , what does that got to do with us, but if God brought forth a (TRULY) Human being with out any advantage and was exactly like us in every way without any advantage over us except that GOD was with Him, and caused Him to overcome sin in Him and walk perfectly by that power , them we (ALL) have a perfect example of what GOD can do for us also. T8 its all about (MAN) learning to trust in (ONE) GOD and Follow a (MAN) who DID Trust in that (ONE) GOD. It works the exact same for us as it did for the MAN (Jesus).

God is not a respecter of Persons, he did not trick us by disguising a preexisting being and passing him off as a man. Here is something else to think about where it says unto which of the angels did God ever say ” I shall be into him a Father and He shall be unto me a son, now if Jesus was a preexisting Angel of some Kind then we could say Jesus was an angle He said it to. But Scripture said He never said it to any angel. So how could Jesus preexist as one then. Just something else to think about T8. IMO

love and peace to you brother…………………………….gene

[kerwin]

T8 wrote:

Quote

It is written.

No it is not written.  I read the account of creation and it states nothing about Jesus being created.  Not one word is there.  I also read other scripture that clearly states Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.  You are confused if you cannot tell the difference.  Just because the writer of Colossians did not choose to specify which creation he was speaking of does not mean that scripture is not consistent.  You choose to assume is is the old but that assumption is yours and not God's.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2009,11:39)

T8 wrote: Quote It is written. No it is not written.  I read the account of creation and it states nothing about Jesus being created.  Not one word is there.  I also read other scripture that clearly states Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.  You are confused if you cannot tell the difference.  Just because the writer of Colossians did not choose to specify which creation he was speaking of does not mean that scripture is not consistent.  You choose to assume is is the old but that assumption is yours and not God's.

Those scriptures I quoted (not the butchered versions) are written. That is what I am referring to. I guess you missed that one.

[Proclaimer]

Gene.

You agree with those quotes in purple as statements I take it?

If not, what needs changing?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2009,11:39)

T8 wrote: Quote It is written. No it is not written.  I read the account of creation and it states nothing about Jesus being created.  Not one word is there.  I also read other scripture that clearly states Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.  You are confused if you cannot tell the difference.  Just because the writer of Colossians did not choose to specify which creation he was speaking of does not mean that scripture is not consistent.  You choose to assume is is the old but that assumption is yours and not God's.

Hi Kerwin

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:2

Since you believe this is the new creation then can you explain what the new world or worlds are?

Has the New Heavens and New earth been created yet?

In context the writer later writes…

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:10

This cannot be the New Creation for this verse continues with…

They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;  And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Heb 1:11

Shall the New Heavens and New Earth pass away?

Where is your verse that claims when the writers wrote of Jesus being the one by whom and for whom all things were created, that it says the “All Things” are the New Creation.

If you believe this then you also must believe that Jesus is God for scriptures say…

”And he that sat upon the throne said, BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW”. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end”. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and”I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON”. Rev 21:5-7

Did the Father create the New Heavens and the New Earth by and through Jesus or not? This scripture implies that the Father did. Now if you say that the Father created it by and through Jesus then give us one good reason why all the other scriptures should not apply to Jesus also?

The Unitarian theology is full of holes. IMO

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….your whole presentation need to be changed. None of what you quoted meats what scripture or me say. Focus on the one Word (EXISTED) and Check out the GREEK on it there , and you might see what i driving at Brother.

love and peace to you and yours………………………………..gene

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

Since you believe this is the new creation then can you explain what the new world or worlds are?

In speaking of Hebrews 1:2 I say sure if you consider what scripture tells you elsewhere just like it tells us Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.   The Greek word for “worlds” can also be translated “ages” while the Greek word for “make” can be translated “show” though I believe the later is a different word than that which is translated “show” in Ephesians 2:7.  The English language also uses different words that mean the same in certain circumstances but not all.

Here is one:

Ephesians 2:7(NIV) reads:

Quote

In order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Here it is covered again though the word choice is different.

Ephesians 3:9(NIV) reads:

Quote

and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

And

Colossians 1:26(NIV) reads:

Quote

the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

And

Hebrews 9:26(NIV) reads:

Quote

Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

We can probably find the same idea expressed in different ways throughout scripture.

[Cindy]

Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2009,17:01)

Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote Since you believe this is the new creation then can you explain what the new world or worlds are? In speaking of Hebrews 1:2 I say sure if you consider what scripture tells you elsewhere just like it tells us Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.   The Greek word for “worlds” can also be translated “ages” while the Greek word for “make” can be translated “show” though I believe the later is a different word than that which is translated “show” in Ephesians 2:7.  The English language also uses different words that mean the same in certain circumstances but not all. Here is one: Ephesians 2:7(NIV) reads: Quote In order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Here it is covered again though the word choice is different. Ephesians 3:9(NIV) reads: Quote and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. And Colossians 1:26(NIV) reads: Quote the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. And Hebrews 9:26(NIV) reads: Quote Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. We can probably find the same idea expressed in different ways throughout scripture.

What r8 wrote s very much on the nose. I just can't understand that you and Gen are ignoring that Jesus was before the world was created. He was indeed the firstborn of all creation. If you do not befieve this, it is not wise to ignore what is written clearly in the word.
Irene
P.S. This is the last time I am saying something about it,once ignorance always. Never learning. Yes, I had the struggle too, did not want to believe it, but thanks to our Father He did not lieve me in that unbelieve, that too I am hoping for you.
Irene

[kerwin]

T8 wrote:

Quote

Those scriptures I quoted (not the butchered versions) are written. That is what I am referring to. I guess you missed that one.

I was very clear about saying you assumed what is written and not what is actually written.  I assure you there is a difference because the earlier happens within your mind while the later occurs within God’s.  

Since I used scripture that states very clearly that Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation I can also say it is written.   In fact it is self evident that Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation even if it was not written since it is through and by and for Jesus that all that will be saved will be saved and this will be done through the Holy Spirit which God placed on Jesus first.

If the old world had been created through Jesus and for Jesus then there would be no need for a new world as all would have been perfected through him already.  That is obviously not the case and that is why there is need for a new creation and the old is passing away.

I question why I should need to point out that Christians are saved through, by, and for Jesus the Messiah as it is a fundamental of the true Christian faith.   I also question why I should need to point out that Jesus’ coming was prophesized from ancient times as that is another fundamental of the true Christian religion.    I find myself puzzled why I should be required to point out God concealed His plan for the salvation of mankind until these last days as we are told that over and over.  It is also clear God did place everything in heaven and on earth under Jesus’ feet and that means well everything such as “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”.  

In short you and those that agree with you come off sounding like you deny the need for the new covenant.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Gene @ April 11 2009,11:35)

T8……….You have way over exaggerated what i Said I said the word (existed) in the Greek text reads (Existing) a present tense word where the text makes it appear as a Past tens word. Just tell me if you find this to be true or not and then present you argument . Why do trinitarians and Preexistences all have the same attitudes. If you and WJ want to make JOHN Say Jesus when He didn't or use the word existed instead of existing , Which is contrary to scriptures then why don't you both get angry with yourselves when you change the words written to meet your false teaching of the Trinity and Preexistences of Jesus. Again Show me ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS “JESUS PREEXISTED BEFORE HIS BERTH”, SHOW ME ONE APOSTLE WHO SAID HE DID, , You cant , bit I will show you an Apostle who said He was foreordained (BUT) was (MANIFESTED)  in our time.  Or maybe you or WJ could offer us who his mane was and what he was doing in this preexisting life  and Glory you claim . Did they call Him Super J or Arch of the Arch angels, or head of the demigods or WHAT? Not to mention what POINT would there be in GOD doing it that way which neither of you have ever addresses, what would it demonstrate to us all if a already perfect begin or demigod , came and walked perfectly , what does that got to do with us, but if God brought forth a (TRULY) Human being with out any advantage and was exactly like us in every way without any advantage over us except that GOD was with Him, and caused Him to overcome sin in Him and walk perfectly by that power , them we (ALL) have a perfect example of what GOD can do for us also. T8 its all about (MAN) learning to trust in (ONE) GOD and Follow a (MAN) who DID Trust in that (ONE) GOD. It works the exact same for us as it did for the MAN (Jesus). God is not a respecter of Persons, he did not trick us by disguising a preexisting being and passing him off as a man. Here is something else to think about where it says unto which of the angels did God ever say ” I shall be into him a Father and He shall be unto me a son, now if Jesus was a preexisting Angel of some Kind then we could say Jesus was an angle He said it to. But Scripture said He never said it to any angel. So how could Jesus preexist as one then. Just something else to think about T8. IMO love and peace to you brother…………………………….gene

T8…..you have failed to answer this post. Brother. Why?

love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“If the old world had been created through Jesus and for Jesus then there would be no need for a new world as all would have been perfected through him already. That is obviously not the case and that is why there is need for a new creation and the old is passing away.”

You ascribe no power to the god of this world who has systematically damaged and upset the order of God's earthly creation using foolish men whenever able?

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

You ascribe no power to the god of this world who has systematically damaged and upset the order of God's earthly creation using foolish men whenever able?

What you say sounds like Gnosticism as Gnosticism believes there is an evil god of the material world, which is corrupt, and good God of the Spiritual world, which is righteous.   I believe that is inadvertent but if you could put quotes around “god” it would make the difference more clear since Satan is a false god and thus no god.

Now your point makes it appear as if you are saying that Satan is more powerful than Jesus our  Lord and that is not so for when God put everything in heaven and earth under Jesus’ feet that also meant Satan.  Rather Satan serves a purpose at this time but when his purpose is done and those that will be perfected are perfected then he will be cast in the lake of burning fire which is called Hell and with him the old creation that is passing away will also be destroyed.

To support my point I direct you attention to scripture which plainly states:

Jeremiah 31:31-32(NIV) reads

Quote

“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant        I made with their forefathers        when I took them by the hand        to lead them out of Egypt,        because they broke my covenant,        though I was a husband to them,”        declares the LORD.

And we can see that he is speaking of a new and different creation and not a remake of the old as God states it will not be like the old.

Now to go on to another point you should consider. According to the following scripture:

Ephesians 3:9-10(NIV) reads:

Quote

and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

The mystery of the Christ was kept hidden in God even from the “rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms”.  This contradicts you unless you believe angels are unable to realize that they are ruled by your speculative preexistent being.

What scripture states is:

Hebrews 2:9(NIV) reads:

Quote

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

We are told Jesus was made a little lower than the angels just like the rest of us but as the result of his actions he was crowned with glory and honor.  He was obviously not crowned before he actually died on the cross because that would not be a result of dying on the cross.  By dying on the cross we know he became the firstborn of a new creation  a creation that is not like the old.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Does scripture contain the apostrophes?

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

No
Then why should we add?

Indeed Satan has been overcome and judged though that fullness will only be seen in the millenium.

Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

We too will join in the plunder of the strongman's goods.

Rom16
20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“We are told Jesus was made a little lower than the angels just like the rest of us but as the result of his actions he was crowned with glory and honor. He was obviously not crowned before he actually died on the cross because that would not be a result of dying on the cross. By dying on the cross we know he became the firstborn of a new creation a creation that is not like the old. “

You interpret MADE as created.
But it may mean CHANGED TO BE

Heb1
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The fulness of the mysteries was withheld from the angels
1Peter1
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

[Author]

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